Ex-vegan newb

[FKE]

Hello everyone! My name is Jessica, and I'm an ex-vegan

This is a bit new for me, I was vegan for nearly 8 years and in that period, all manner of raw-vegan, fruitarian, 80-10-10 (for over a year... Eugh), macrobiotic, blood-type, high-greens, superfoods, liquidarian, ect.. In the process I've gained weight, felt utter shite, and according to these nifty little blood-test and bone density results, did nearly permanent damage with malnutrition. So, I'm 20 years old, and I'm completely disillusioned with the political/moral/environmental/nutritional propaganda that has defined me since I was a pre-teen. Because now I eat meat and such.

I'm here essentially because I'm a complete newb. I'm currently consuming: Eggs (sparingly), some liver, some muscle meats, marrow bones, fatty fish, butter, greens, and berries. I'm lucky enough to live in New Jersey (didn't think I'd ever say that...) and have access to UdderMilk.com which does organic pasture-raised meats as well as raw dairy products and eggs and such. Not doing nearly so well fish wise (or am I?), I get it wild but canned with salt. Haven't found any alternatives in my price range unfortunately. All the frozen fish I've seen has been farmed, and thus packed with food colouring and preservatives.

Mainly, the problem is, I've got all this great stuff to go through and not a clue where to start. I'm looking, primarily, for advice on how many calories I should be consuming (I've been doing 900-1200 for nearly 4 years), how much of everything I need to fulfil nutritional requirements and such (fitday and similar resources seem questionable, considering they don't track the differences between grass-fed products vs. factory farmed); specifically in regard to vitamin D/E/K2/C, calcium, and potassium. Those are the main concerns. Oh! And  I'm looking for anything anyone can throw at me on food prep, cuts, ect.. The whole "sliced and dipped in hollandaise" might get old soon.

Looking forward to lurking around what I expect to be a forum full of other bitter ex-vegans

[William]

Mainly, the problem is, I've got all this great stuff to go through and not a clue where to start. I'm looking, primarily, for advice on how many calories I should be consuming (I've been doing 900-1200 for nearly 4 years), how much of everything I need to fulfil nutritional requirements and such (fitday and similar resources seem questionable, considering they don't track the differences between grass-fed products vs. factory farmed); specifically in regard to vitamin D/E/K2/C, calcium, and potassium. Those are the main concerns. Oh! And  I'm looking for anything anyone can throw at me on food prep, cuts, ect.. The whole "sliced and dipped in hollandaise" might get old soon.

Looking forward to lurking around what I expect to be a forum full of other bitter ex-vegans

Fill up with animal fat first, then eat as much meat as seems satisfying. That's the usual advice.

More bitter ex-vegans are to be found at http://www.dirtycarnivore.com/
and http://www.zeroinginonhealth.com/ is a good read, but not necessarily for joining.

[goodsamaritan]

I think there is a newbie guide.

You can also look at the sample diets of people in this board.

We are varied because we come from all around the world.

I hope you learn a lot and be transformed to a happy pretty sexy person.

[Raw Kyle]

I haven't bothered looking at calories for a while. I don't think it's worth spending time on when you follow a diet like this. If you eat fatty meat until you're full, you will be getting enough calories. Your micronutrients would come from organs, and if you want some carbs that would be fruit. I just try to keep my carbs down pretty low and eat as much fat and muscle as I want.

[Paleo Donk]

Welcome aboard - this site has an unbelievable wealth of information and I would suggest that you peruse it at your own will.

As for calories - I'm not sure anybody here really keeps track of them. I did briefly when I was trying to experiment with lower protein but realized it was foolish since I am pretty far away from being healed. Healing yourself should be priority number one, getting an ideal superficial weight should be near the bottom of things to worry about.  If you are scared of gaining weight, then it might be good to find a support group. Also, you shouldn't worry about micornutrients yet. Just eat enough fatty red meats and this should be good for now.

[Roselene]

Hello everyone! My name is Jessica, and I'm an ex-vegan

This is a bit new for me, I was vegan for nearly 8 years and in that period, all manner of raw-vegan, fruitarian, 80-10-10 (for over a year... Eugh), macrobiotic, blood-type, high-greens, superfoods, liquidarian, ect.. In the process I've gained weight, felt utter shite, and according to these nifty little blood-test and bone density results, did nearly permanent damage with malnutrition. So, I'm 20 years old, and I'm completely disillusioned with the political/moral/environmental/nutritional propaganda that has defined me since I was a pre-teen. Because now I eat meat and such.

I'm here essentially because I'm a complete newb. I'm currently consuming: Eggs (sparingly), some liver, some muscle meats, marrow bones, fatty fish, butter, greens, and berries. I'm lucky enough to live in New Jersey (didn't think I'd ever say that...) and have access to UdderMilk.com which does organic pasture-raised meats as well as raw dairy products and eggs and such. Not doing nearly so well fish wise (or am I?), I get it wild but canned with salt. Haven't found any alternatives in my price range unfortunately. All the frozen fish I've seen has been farmed, and thus packed with food colouring and preservatives.

Mainly, the problem is, I've got all this great stuff to go through and not a clue where to start. I'm looking, primarily, for advice on how many calories I should be consuming (I've been doing 900-1200 for nearly 4 years), how much of everything I need to fulfil nutritional requirements and such (fitday and similar resources seem questionable, considering they don't track the differences between grass-fed products vs. factory farmed); specifically in regard to vitamin D/E/K2/C, calcium, and potassium. Those are the main concerns. Oh! And  I'm looking for anything anyone can

Hi Jessica,

Welcome, good to have you here.  It sounds like this is AA.  It is though, as we make many carbohydrates into alcohol, but running on animal fat, it's different.  Very sober.

What's the name of the bone density test you had?

How is Uddermilk arranged?

You might want to be careful with canned large fish.  It quite possibly contains difficult to detox Hg.

If you find nutrional charting like fitday for the oil soluble vitamins, I would love to see that.  The only site I know is http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/ethnic-foods/8088/2

[TylerDurden]

Micromanaging a rawpalaeodiet isn't necessary, IMO. If one is consuming lots of overly-calcium-rich raw dairy, then upping ones' magnesium-intake is required, generally speaking. Other than that, improving the quality of what you eat is more important(ie grassfed instead of grainfed meats; organic fruit instead of nonorganic fruit etc.

I view your choice of eating canned wild fish as actually being a lot worse than eating raw farmed fish. Granted, farmed fish, however raw, will contain some dyes and chemicals, but canned fish is notorious for being heated for long periods at high temperatures in order to ensure bacteria get wiped out - in the process, most of the vitamins are mostly wiped out other substances(eg:- omega-3s) get changed so as to be virtually useless as nutrients etc. Plus, the excess salt is highly unnatural and will not help your health. I always thought that only trout, salmon, some shellfish(oysters/mussels) and some types of tuna were ever farmed - surely they have wild sources such as raw sardines or raw mackerel or raw swordfish?

Re food-prep:- While most newbies feel the need to go in for some form of seasoning in order to get used to the taste of raw meats(eg:- using raw spices such as raw ginger/raw garlic/black pepper etc.), most eventually  grow out of it and start enjoying the taste of the raw meats and find they digest raw meats better on their own. In the meantime, I would suggest you look at standard online recipes of raw meats such as ceviche(raw wild fish marinated in lemon-juices) or steak tartare(raw minced meats plus a raw egg on top; add the raw butter if you must but it's definitely not palaeo).

[klowcarb]

Hi, Jessica. I'm an ex-vegetarian and I find that raw zero carb gives me better energy for bodybuilding. I wish you luck and welcome.

[Sitting Coyote]

Hi Jessica, I'm also a former vegan although I can't claim to have been on the diet remotely as long as you have.  The negative consequences of being vegan emerged for me within a month, and I only last three months on the diet before I abandoned ship. 

At any rate, welcome to the forum.  There's lots of information here, and one thing you'll notice quickly is that folks who post here disagree about most everything, except the value of getting the bulk (for some all) of their calories from raw animal foods.

While most here are content viewing "Raw Paleo" as including domestic animals and plants, I am not.  I hunt, and 90 percent of the animal food I eat comes from animals I've taken.  I think the relationship we share with the origins of our food is just as important as the food's constitution (i.e. protein content, fat content, vitamins, minerals...).  I am also learning a lot about gathering wild plant foods, and have not had to purchase any plant foods in the last few weeks as spring has sprung here in Vermont and I can gather more than enough wild greens to please my palate.  Even though you live in New Jersey, I'd encourage you to start learning about the wild edibles in your area as they offer a nutrient-dense, low-cost supplement even if most of your calories come from the grocery market.

Not sure how long you've been eating raw meat, but my experience (started raw in December 2009) was that at first raw meat tasted quite bland and needed to be mixed with other things or seasoned.  Since then my taste buds have 'healed', and are now sensitive enough to notice the subtleties in taste and texture of most animal foods, making seasoning and fancy preparation unnecessary. 

Of all the health benefits I've enjoyed since starting this diet (stronger teeth, less irritated gums, brighter skin, increasing muscle mass, easier digestion...) I've found this to be the most liberating.  Before going Raw Omnivore I spent over an hour preparing food every day.  I now spend scantly minutes and feel much more nourished than ever before.  My housemate just this morning spent 35 minutes preparing and eating his breakfast which included a fancy omelette with eggs, garlic, legumes, and other things.  That's a lot of time for something you're destroying much of the nutritional value of through cooking.  I had two raw eggs (broken into a cup and drank) and a few strawberries.  Prep time was a minute total, eating time perhaps thrice that, and the results were far more nourishing.

[huntress]

Hi Jessica!

Welcome!  Wow!  You held out a long time as a raw vegan in various forms!  That just means to me you have the will power it takes to stick with this, and I wish you the best success.  I thought I would just share with you a few things I came across while reading these message boards, trying to figure out my own diet. 

I also tried being a raw vegan for a few months, then toyed with the idea of macrobiotics, so I agree with the way you have chosen berries as your small (like maybe biweekly a while before breakfast) portion of fruit intake, because blueberries are just about the only fruit indigenous to this area and are less sweet than other fruits which have been mutated to increase their sugar content.  I read one post by a lady who is very successful with the following basic daily routine, though like the others said, it will depend on what it takes to fill you up as an individual:

400 grams (very roughly a little less than 1 lb.) fatty briskett
100-150 g. (about 4 oz.) ground raw suet from the same animal
A fortnightly delivery of raw liver and heart, consumed in liquid form over 2-3 days.

She mentioned seasoning with finely chopped red onions and herbs and said she simply eats half of her daily portion (which would be in the range of about 6 oz. to 1/2 lb. meat and maybe about 6-8 oz. ground raw suet) in the morning before going to work and the other half for dinner when she returns home, getting by very well on only water throughout the rest of the day because her blood sugars have become so stabilized and healthy with the raw paleo lifestyle

Since I also read it is necessary drink a little water and move around a bit (I like to start with a few stomach crunches and stretches) before eating breakfast, I thought I might rise, drink water, stretch, etc., prepare for work, then eat, rest a few minutes directly afterward to let the digestion start properly, then go calmly to work.  Does this sound like a good idea?  I'm new here too, and I'm trying to figure out the perfect schedule.

I also agree with another post here that advocates eating wild, grassfed meat over domesticated animals, even if they are grassfed.  I think the latter (grassfed cows, lamb, etc.) are fine overall, but since bison and elk are indigenous to this area, they seem to me to be a more natural food source for us  while we are living here (if approaching this with a true macrobiotic sensibility).  Northstar Bison is pretty close, can ship fresh UNFROZEN orders overnight (if you place the order by about Sunday night or Monday morning) at a comparatively reasonable rate, and I've been told they have the highest quality raw suet available around.  You might like to call them about the suet,  as I am going to, because I didn't see it listed on their website.  Regarding frozen and unfrozen, that reminds me it is generally held that frozen meats have been compromised, and are not actually fresh or raw anymore.  They could even be a little dangerous to the health, depending on the conditions they were frozen under.   

Regarding fish/sashimi, I read that fresh, unfrozen red tuna is great in moderation, but one should not overdo it because of the negligible risk of mercury poisoning.  I also agree with the posts regarding salmon.  Farm raised salmon has been shown by some studies to be devoid of parasites, but then yes, it is subjected to genetic altering experiments and chemicals.  Wild salmon is almost always frozen (for their fear of parasites) before it reaches the stores, which affects its health benefits as well as its taste (tastes watery and way too "fishy").  So, I thought about organically raised "Scottish" salmon, which can be found in the market at Grand Central.  hmmmm...

Another source is the Farmer's Market in Union Square.  They only have grassfed beef, no bison or elk that I saw, but it would be cheaper not to pay the $25 or so shipping every single time.  Perhaps this could round out a mostly bison/elk diet.  I believe they are there every Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday until about 5:00 p.m.

Oh!  I just remembered one more post that you might find interesting.  Some people were having trouble digesting the raw suet, and found it definitely should be ground to improve digestion.  Someone even mixed it with another healthy fat (she used coconut oil, but I and many people have had a severe allergic reaction to coconut oil, so maybe a very small amount of extra virgin, first cold pressed olive oil or just a very few raw, soaked, ground pumpkin seeds since pumpkin also grows here, and pumpkin seeds are reported to have powerful medicinal qualities, particularly regarding parasites?)   It's just a thought, but should be taken with the proberbial "grain of salt" of course, especially since I'm new to this too, lol.

I know this is becoming an interminable post, but I just remembered one more thing.  You mentioned raw eggs in moderation, which I also used to enjoy, until I read a post detailing how most regular or even organic eggs are pretty much just, er, chicken periods, so it would be healthier to find a source of fertilized eggs as a treat once in a while.  That's what the post stated, and I think it makes sense.  What do you think?

Just curious, how long were you following the macrobiotic lifestyle, and what were the results?  How is the raw paleo working out for you so far?

Hope this helps, and wishing you incredible, vibrant, beautiful health!

[ys]

Welcome,
Start reading past threads and if you have questions ask them!

I'm curios if current vegans from 30bananas are reading this.  There have been numerous defections from veganism to meat eating.  It'll be interesting to know if there are any defections from paleo to veganism.

[TylerDurden]

Well, I was a former defector from cooked-palaeo to raw veganism. This was because I had developed severe stomach-aches at the time after eating any cooked animal foods, so I had no choice. I would never defect from rawpalaeo to raw veganism, however, as my raw vegan phase was an absolute  disaster and almost as bad as my cooked-palaeo/cooked-low-carb phases.


Judging from the comments on 30bananasaday and similiar forums, the primary motivation to go raw vegan has nothing really to do with health, but is merely a case of feeling for the animals.

[ys]

but is merely a case of feeling for the animals

you are right, most of them sound like that, save poor animals and planet, do not reproduce, and i bet they would force feed lions and tigers grass if they could.

[ForTheHunt]

Man has transferred their insane fear of death over to animals. Truth is though, animals don't live in fear of death.

[TylerDurden]

Man has transferred their insane fear of death over to animals. Truth is though, animals don't live in fear of death.

Err, yes they do. Animals such as elephants etc. are acutely aware of death.

There have been repeated attempts over the millenia to try to distinguish between animals and humans. There've been claims that only humans have a sense of humour(false), claims that only humans are aware of the future as a concept(false) and so on. Truth is, animals have much the same sort of behaviour/outlook as humans, they're just less intelligent, that's all.

[PaleoPhil]

I'll take advantage of this rare instance to chime in my agreement with Tyler.

[goodsamaritan]

I think with vegans and environmentalism it is more sinister.

#1 They don't like humans.  They can't accept humans need meat.
#2 They like animals and "nature" more than humans.
#3 They don't want humans to reproduce, they'd rather force all humans to go vegan and be sterile, not reproduce.
#4 They aren't in veganism for health.  It's just their idealism.  

The ones who defect realize they'd rather have health and live or are raising children and have to face reality that children may fail to thrive without meat.

[TylerDurden]

Well, I wouldn't mind if most of the planet's humans willingly became vegans and stopped reproducing as long as I was allowed to go on with my raw, palaeolithic diet etc.  That way, within a generation, vast areas of land in the UK would become truly beautiful and wild instead of the current , overcrowded, over-concreted nightmare.

[klowcarb]

I could only wish more people would stop reproducing, especially those with defective genes.

[NEUROSPORT]

(I've been doing 900-1200 for nearly 4 years

either you're mistaken or you're a couch potato.

i burn a thousand calories with just my daily workout ( 20 miles on the bike @ 20 mph ).  i know a caveman isn't supposed to exercise like a pro athlete but i am not - pros cycle 6 hours a day, i only do 1.

if you're consuming less than 1,500 calories and you are fat you simply need to move more.

working out won't help MOST people lose weight.  for example i could easily consume about 6,000 calories a day and i could only realistically burn about 2,000 with exercise.  without a very good diet i would still be fat with any amount of exercise.  i used to weigh 240 pounds while exercising 20 hours a week back in college.

but if you already got your calorie intake below 1,500 calories at this point it makes much more sense to just burn them than to try restricting them even further.

cycling is by far the most efficient way to burn calories.  that's because it uses large muscles composed of slow twitch fibers ( these types of muscles can take a large volume of exercise day after day ) and because it leaves the lungs completely free to pump oxygen at maximum rate ( with swimming and even jogging airflow through the lungs gets somewhat restricted ). 

[NEUROSPORT]

I could only wish more people would stop reproducing, especially those with defective genes.

i wish ALL people would stop reproducing !  read my article about it here:

http://www.diy-av.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=489