Strictly Meat and Milk

[Coatue]

Does anybody here stay or have stayed to a strictly raw dairy and raw meat diet like the Masai? If so, any comments on such a diet from health perspective?

[RawZi]

    Not me, but no coconut cream (no oils too) and no carrot or cucumber in my juice.  Everyone else I talk to says AV recommended those to them, but those haven't been in my program.  So, it seems my recommended diet is a little more animal based (and less carb less veg fat), than many of his clients.

[PaleoPhil]

@RawZi,  FYI: Coatue isn't necessarily an AV Primal dieter. I moved this thread here from ZC/Carnivore because it includes raw milk as a staple. In hindsight it would have been better to move it to the Weston Price board, but I don't have moderator capabilities in this board to move it again.

@Coatue  Have you read Price's Nutrition & Physical Degeneration? If not, you might find that interesting, as he reported on the Masai and recommended pastured milk & meats among other foods. I don't agree with Price or the WAPF on everything, but there is some interesting stuff in the book.

[TylerDurden]

Well, it seems PP, I and others are agreed that the wp forum is the best place for such threads. Moved there now.

[ForTheHunt]

I've done meat and milk only.

It was ok. Mainly what bothered me was constipation.

[KD]

not that it really matters, but I think it makes more sense in the ZC forum if its talking about animal product only diets virtually non-existent in any known peoples other than the Masai and very distant from a diet recommended in PD or WAPF.


even the Masai diet apparently includes both honey and tree bark.

The traditional Masai diet consists of blood, milk, fat, honey and tree bark. Meat includes beef, goat and mutton; wild animals, chicken, fish and salt are forbidden.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/293306-masai-tribe-diet/

I would be wary of any modern permutation of this that neglected the quality and quantity of fat in the Masai diet as well as blood and likely whole animal/organ consumption. If you are talking about adding milk to an otherwise rounded RAF diet, and handle it well, it should probably be an asset. I would think it would provide some baseline carbs and so forth that a very hard-line ZC diet would have difficulty obtaining (if its determined these carbs are necessary). If you are talking about strictly store beef and milk with no added fat I can see a number of issues with that.

Since one has the effortless options in our present world I personally opt for dairy fat only in addition to marrow and back fat  trimmings, as well as a number of (at very least supplemental) plant foods - either to account for blood etc..or for remineralizing/healing, and have no religious stigma against other animals to expand my diet profile.

remember the odds of a modern person transporting to a Masai village and eating their diet and creating their exact health is rarther a long shot as our entire compositions are in a totally different spot with possibly different requirements.

[PaleoPhil]

even the Masai diet apparently includes both honey and tree bark.

Right, which is why WP makes more sense for a Masai diet than ZC, as ZC doesn't technically or normally include honey (or bark for that matter ). I had to think about it a bit myself at first too and no category is a perfect match, but WP is the only one that includes all the elements Coatue mentioned--raw dairy, raw meat and Masai.

Plus, technically dairy isn't Paleo according to this forum's creators and my understanding was that the WP and AV/Primal diet boards are supposed to be the only non-Paleo boards here, with all the others considered Paleo. It wouldn't bother me that much if the leaders decide that they want to start counting dairy as "PaleoNu", but I doubt Tyler would go for that. So if we're going to put dairy into the ZC section then to be consistent ZC should be moved into the non-Paleo section, which seems unnecessary given that we already have WP.

[KD]

I can see how since the ZC is under the main paleo umbrella that makes sense. I guess I just figure it seems many of the ZC practitioners accept animal products as animal foods and tend to have more accepted views of dairy foods, ghee, even pasteurized butter etc...in comparison to fruits and plants etc... also primal and WAPF seem to have so many rules and their own restrictions. but I can your point, particularly in reference to studying HGs.

It does seem strange to me when people mention large amounts of honey and milk in their 'ZC' diet...but I guess one could claim carnivorous?

I guess the point was more that probably as many people know the diets proposed on ZC sites or whatever arn't really much of a reflection of the Massai or other past tribes, not that is by default bad or good per se.

[Nation]

animal product only diets virtually non-existent in any known peoples other than the Masai

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jch69

I recently saw this documentary, parts of it is about a small tribe living in Ethopian desert, they survive almost entirely on goat and camel milk/meat, milk is a very big part of their diet, they drink it raw, they didn't show them eating meat so i can't say if they cook it or not. Tribes in Northern Russia live on cooked reindeer meat only, there is nothing else to eat there. I'm sure there are other tribes who survive on milk and meat.

[KD]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jch69

I recently saw this documentary, parts of it is about a small tribe living in Ethopian desert, they survive almost entirely on goat and camel milk/meat, milk is a very big part of their diet, they drink it raw, they didn't show them eating meat so i can't say if they cook it or not. Tribes in Northern Russia live on cooked reindeer meat only, there is nothing else to eat there. I'm sure there are other tribes who survive on milk and meat.

My wording was sorta confusing I guess. There might be some even contemporary peoples that eat predominantly meat or likely 'meat' ( whole animals/+ fat) but none of these diets (to my knowledge) involve just muscle meats and milk. It could be the OP was talking about meat as in 'meat diet' or 'RAF', but I was speaking towards both seperately. The tribe you mention In Ethiopia eats 'grain' - soghrum- I believe and cooks food.

Generally most traditional peoples that consume animal milk will consume it raw or in some cases boiled in a porridge or something, but never of course pasteurized. Most diets in the last few millennia have favored fairly heavily both raw milk and meat but that isn't the same either as a ZC diet. The issue is whether meat, and particularly muscle meat - diets are very sustainable, without all the supplemental practices these peoples always go in to the trouble of participating.

[TylerDurden]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jch69

I recently saw this documentary, parts of it is about a small tribe living in Ethopian desert, they survive almost entirely on goat and camel milk/meat, milk is a very big part of their diet, they drink it raw, they didn't show them eating meat so i can't say if they cook it or not. Tribes in Northern Russia live on cooked reindeer meat only, there is nothing else to eat there. I'm sure there are other tribes who survive on milk and meat.

  Ethiopians are big fans of raw meat re their culture, but they still cook most of their meats.

[TylerDurden]

One reason why I am not as happy as I was, at first, to have the meat/milk thread in the RZC forum is that, in hindsight, the RZCers on RPF and the other forum seem to be more likely to have a food-intolerance/allergy towards raw dairy than the  raw omnivores.  It's true, though,  that cooked ZCers  have always had a huge fascination for dairy, raw or pasteurised, from way back in Stefansson's time.

[RawZi]

@RawZi,  FYI: Coatue isn't necessarily an AV Primal dieter. I moved this thread here from ZC/Carnivore because it includes raw milk as a staple. In hindsight it would have been better to move it to the Weston Price board, but I don't have moderator capabilities in this board to move it again.

    Thank you.

    PS I love your new icon (loved the other one too). 

[klowcarb]

I'm strictly grassfed meat, grassfed butter and eggs. I'm not sure if this counts as what you are looking for.

[SteakNchop]

I personally eat just meat with some dairy once in a while. I try to limit it, but I would eat raw dairy over fruits or vegetables any day of the week.