Raw Paleo Diet Made only made Possible via Refrigeration Technologies

[goodsamaritan]

Guys,

Just rambling and thinking assembling this concept in my head.  Chime in with your thoughts.

I'm thinking the human race hasn't seen raw paleo diet for a very long time when agriculture and civilization started until the 20th century when refrigeration and freezing technologies were invented.

Which in effect makes raw paleo diet a "new" rediscovered diet.

Also explains the needless suffering of most of humanity on cooked, SAD, agricultural diets.

Raw Paleo Diet would not be here if it weren't for refrigeration technologies.

Keep replying with your rambles, we may get somewhere with this thread.

[Projectile Vomit]

How do you figure? Why is refrigeration and freezing a necessary part of this diet?

I suspect part of your thought process is built around the tendency of the modern, industrial people who adopt raw paleo diet to view themselves as individuals, and to build isolated, individual lives for themselves. As individuals, one person can't eat a whole deer by themselves before it rots, so freezing or refrigeration is necessary. Also, your particular diet relies heavily on industrial fishing, which also requires refrigeration and freezing to be viable because of the quantities of fish involved.

In a tribal culture, rather than every-person-for-themselves the participants would work and eat as a unit. If one hunter in a tribe of 40 people killed a deer, it would be divided among everyone in the community and folks would eat nothing but deer for a few days until it was all gone. Even in warm weather deer meat won't go bad for a few days, so in a tribal culture there would be no need for refrigeration. Same with fishing. If a fisher brought in a substantial catch that he couldn't finish by himself, everyone in the tribe would eat nothing but fish until it was all gone, and refrigeration wouldn't be needed.

And tribal fishing and hunting is also done on a smaller scale. So the hunter would never bring back 10 deer all at once because that's too much for his tribe to eat in a reasonable time, and the fisher would never bring back 10 tons of fish all at once, he'd stop fishing when he caught enough to feed people for a couple days.

This ignores the potential for storing some of this meat by fermentation, or salt curing. But that's another issue...

So I guess I disagree with you GC. I think we could do this without refrigerators or freezers, but our culture would need to change for that to be possible. We'd have to be willing to work together as tribes, and when meat is made available we'd have to be willing to share until it's gone.

[van]

and there's smoking meat, like the pygmies do with elephants, and drying buffalo like indians do, obviously in colder climates the meat keeps well just sitting there protected from predators.

[Neone]

Ahh, I have always just hung my meats up in my living space and they are fine as long as you keep them well ventilated.

I'd put mutton legs on the centre pole of my tent and four months later they're more awesome than the day I got them, and getting better every day. We almost didn't want to eat them because we considered them a delicacy.


I have also had to live off of dried meat rations and it is NOT something that you want to do. A stomach full of dried meat is not pleasant after four weeks.  We even tried stuff like re-soaking them to try make them feel less awful but it was just gross.  Drying stuff just makes it easier to transport around but doesn't do much for realistic meat storage (as in when you're really living off the land and stuff, are you really going to keep food for YEARS? I didn't, a few months is more realistic.

[Aaaaaa]

Neone, I am interested in your meat storage methods!  I wonder if something similar would be possible in a house, or if it only worked because you were in a tent?
Would hanging meat in a refrigerator work for 1-2 weeks storage?

[Ferocious]

Neone, I am interested in your meat storage methods!  I wonder if something similar would be possible in a house, or if it only worked because you were in a tent?
Would hanging meat in a refrigerator work for 1-2 weeks storage?

Considering meat never truly goes "bad", yes.

[Aaaaaa]

That is true.  :-)
I guess what I mean is--what does it taste like by the end of a week or 2 weeks?  I'd prefer it to stay "fresher" instead of "high", if you know what I mean?  Does it get all slimy like high meat in a jar, if it is out where the air can circulate?

[PaleoPhil]

In an experiment I stored suet for over a year in a cupboard with no problems other than it started to take on some of the flavor of the paper bag it was stored in.

I have left jerky strips and slices of ground beef out on the kitchen counter or stored jerky in a paper bag for weeks at a time and as long as it doesn't get too hot and humid the only thing that happened is that it got drier (and the ground beef gets crustier on the outside). If it does get hot and humid then I only store meat in the fridge, as jerky can get moldy and the inside of the ground beef can get disgusting and possibly dangerous (as the oxygen level is low and thus c. botulinum would be a risk).

Other traditional options beyond refrigeration and air-drying include burying meats in cold ground during cold seasons or smoking meats/fish. There are also other forms of refrigeration beyond cold ground that were used before the advent of electricity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot-in-pot_refrigerator).

If I had a meat locker, or chose to use my fridge as one, and didn't store sauerkraut, carrots and fruits in my fridge for more than a few days, I might turn it off.

I have relatives in rural Ireland who didn't have refrigeration until the 1970's. Up until then they just cooked a side of meat, pork mostly commonly, and left it to hang in the foyer of the home, with the door wide open (and chickens sometimes running into the house), slicing off portions of the meat as they needed them. Cooking the meat first probably increased the risk of pathogenic infection, rather than decreased it. They stored their eggs in a clay pot by the door (the coolest part of the house). Traditionally in Ireland a butter churn was also kept near the door, though I don't think my relatives had one in the 70's. The custom in Ireland was that guests would give the churn a few pumps as they came into the house.
I've seen a Mongol portrayed doing the same thing in a movie about Chingis Khaan.

And in general, just because one can't imagine how something would be done doesn't mean it can't be. I find it pays to keep my mind open and inquisitive.

[Aaaaaa]

How facinating, PP! 
I'm glad to know that the suet keeps for a long time at room temp.  I think I'll leave my little bowl out and just keep eating from it and replenishing it with the frozen stuff when it gets low. 
I'm thinking of ordering some bison from NorthStar Bison, and experimenting with how long it will stay good in the fridge, if I open one piece for eating right away, and save one in its pack for the next week.
I am so glad this thread was started; I would have never imagined there were so many ways of preserving/storing foods other than our modern fridges and freezers.  While they DO make things easier, it is always good to know the old ways; never know when you're gonna need them! ;-)

[PaleoPhil]

As was mentioned, one of the keys of storing meat or fat without refrigeration is sufficient air flow to all parts of it. Also, keeping it dry is important, as dampness promotes mold. If meat can't be hung to expose all surfaces then it needs to be turned, at least until if and when it gets really dry (as with jerky).

[Dorothy]

Was the suet you used fresh or frozen Phil? How about the other stuff?
I just broke open the suet I got from Slankers (all their food arrives frozen) today and cut it into tiny chunks while it was still frozen and wonder about leaving it in the fridge or open. I've left marrow out and it turns really nasty in my opinion. The frozen suet was quite delicious to me btw. Everyone liked it including the dogs, the cats and the chickens. If suet is so stable it might win first place over marrow even. 

[PaleoPhil]

Dorothy: Was the suet you used fresh or frozen Phil?
Fresh.

D: How about the other stuff?
Same

I just broke open the suet I got from Slankers (all their food arrives frozen) today and cut it into tiny chunks while it was still frozen and wonder about leaving it in the fridge or open. I've left marrow out and it turns really nasty in my opinion. The frozen suet was quite delicious to me btw. Everyone liked it including the dogs, the cats and the chickens. If suet is so stable it might win first place over marrow even.

The marrow I buy is frozen. When I take it out of the freezer, I try to get it out of the plastic soon after it is thawed and remove the marrow with a knife and put it into a container and put that into the fridge. If I do that soon enough, the marrow stays dry and tastes good. If I leave the marrow too long in the plastic packaging, the marrow gets damp, nasty tasting and eventually moldy.

The suet I take out of the plastic wrapping as soon as I get it home and chop into big chunks and put it into paper lunch bags. If I buy lots I sometimes freeze some, mainly because I don't want to take the time to remove the packaging and chop it up.

[Dorothy]

The suet that you put in the freezer - did you ever take that out and put some of that frozen suet in a paper bag?

I'm just curious if previously frozen suet will last outside of refrigeration.

Thanks.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, that's what I do with all my suet, because when I put it in the fridge it tends to get damp and not be as tasty, whereas marrow seems to do fine in the fridge once taken out of the bones and would be rather messy stored in bags anyway. YMMV

Almost forgot to mention that I have linings on the cupboard shelves, which is helpful, as a little of the suet eventually often soaks through the paper and onto the lining.

[Dorothy]

Ok, so let me make sure I understand. You take frozen suet, break it apart, put it in paper bags on covered shelves and it stays nice for a long time?

Cool. 

[PaleoPhil]

Most of it is fresh, and I never bothered to track how fresh vs. frozen fare, but yeah. If you think about it, in the wild, meat and fat on an uneaten carcass just sit there on the ground and then animals come along and eat it, not caring or comprehending that there is any risk, unless the meat/fat tastes too nasty and/or is too deteriorated and liquid to bother with. No animals have refrigerators or freezers. Of course, meat/fat doesn't tend to last a long time in the wild unless it's buried (in relatively cool ground) by dogs--and they tend to eat most of the fat and meat and mainly bury the bones, aging them nicely.

Granted, fat does oxidize with age, so fresher is probably better.

[Muhammad.Sunshine]

Most modern diets are possible because of refrigeration. Even cooked neolithic foods will spoil.

Animals were traditionally kept for milk rather than meat; milk could provide fresh nourishment on a daily basis. Milk was usually processed into butter and cheese for long term storage. Cheese stores well and tends to become more palatable as time goes on.

[svrn]

So if i kill an animal in the wild, cut it up, and hang pieces of it in my tent thats a viable storage method?

[PaleoPhil]

Yuppers, or bury the meat in the ground under big rocks (preferably sealed in the skin/hide of the animal), like the traditional Inuit also did. Modern lifestyle and technologies are completely unnecessary for thriving if there is sufficient food (though I of course use some modern gadgetry myself, such as computers, but it's not necessary to survive and thrive in a wilderness with abundant food).

Traditionally, the meat would not be hung in the tent, but rather outside on a rack by the fire, for the smoke (which adds additional preservation and flavor--though also some carcinogens--and keeps away the bugs), or on a tree.

[eveheart]

So if i kill an animal in the wild, cut it up, and hang pieces of it in my tent thats a viable storage method?

In the "old country" of my family, the meat was hung in the attic. There was natural ventilation. I'm not sure about what you mean by cutting it up - you want to hang great big pieces (depending on the size of the original animal), not individual steaks, for example.

[svrn]

I meant cutting it into sections, as in separating the limbs and stuff. Can you just skin it and hang the whole thing up? Should the organs be refrigerated?

[PaleoPhil]

The organs would be removed, but I would think you could hang a half or a quarter of an animal. Now I'm curious about how much of the animals my relatives would hang up in their house.

Now that I think of it, one probably would indeed hang the meat inside the tent/tepee/hut if it's raining or snowing outdoors. Either way, one should also look into what precautions can be taken if there are bears or wolves in the area--especially if one is alone and thus doesn't have a tribe to help protect your meat and yourself.

[RawZi]

Why is refrigeration and freezing a necessary part of this diet?

    Because we live with neolithic man.

    I finally have my own refrigerator outdoors.  We lived in a smaller place, but this place has room for gardens.  If I keep my food outside in that fridge it's fine.  If I make my highmeat in that refrigerator, fine.  I can't make it inside at room temperature here.  I keep turning the thermostat down to 68F.  Partner keeps turning it up to 77F.  Will let me keep the door open to let the cold into the house, but seems when I leave for a moment, up goes the thermostat.  Even son has been saying it's too hot here.  Maybe it's that us two are eating RAFat and therefore tolerate cooler temps better.  Partner says he understands when I've said even when we met and say today and yesterday too I cannot stand neither heating nor air conditioning.  Says he's never cold either, and he's not!  He always feels warm to the touch, never shivers, doesn't bundle up in layers.  Anyway, my room temperature high meat takes on a certain nasty stench when made at 77F, that it doesn't get at say- 72F or 65F,  just like an animal rotting at the side of the road in a hot climate. I need always to use either that outdoor refrigerator or to bury my food.  Do foxes dig up highmeat? There are plenty of them here.  If I could only find my huge clay crock.  It's always being hidden over again these past two years.  The box it came in is here though!  Maybe crock was sold this time or more likely thrown out "accidentally".  I doubt foxes would get into it, the top was heavy and deeply ridged to not come off without using hands.  Perfect for outdoors here.

[Dorothy]

RawZi - is your partner a reasonable person? I mean that as a sincere question. If he is, then he would understand it if you explained it to him that instead of turning up the heat when it makes you uncomfortable that he should put on a sweater and try bundling up instead of torturing you and your son and making it impossible for you to properly prepare the food you need for your health. He is being selfish. He seems to need it explained to him. If he's unreasonable and selfish, well, then I guess you might want to build a separate building outside that animals can't get into for your food as it will be much easier than digging.