Is it possible to go about this diet without eating raw meat?

[JeuneKoq]

RIght. I want to know the scientific reasoning about raw cheese. I hope Rosedale is scientifically minded and so I could trust his view on raw cheese.

Some say dairy is good for bones. Others say it is injurious.

Some say if it is raw and you like it, it must be good for your body. Others say dairy, even raw, is addictive like opium. So obviously you cannot judge its goodness by how much you crave it.

Some say experiment for yourself and see if it does any good/harm to you. Others say the damages might not show until years later.
 

Yep, but one thing's for sure:  your ancestors didn't get any before the advent of agriculture and domesticated land animals, 10,000 years ago.

Perhaps if they managed to kill a lactating female and cut open her udder straight away, which would probably happen once or twice in a ancient human's lifetime. Quite impossible to capture a wild animal alive and extract milk from its udder without causing harm, as the animal would be in so much stress.
So if you accept the idea that humans do best on foods that where consumed during the greatest part of our evolutionary course, as opposed to the foods only consumed -and made consumable- since the "insignificant" time length of 10.000 years for milk and grains, and 500.000 years for cooked food (point in time estimated), then you may come to the conclusion that milk and dairy ins't something you should be drinking or eating daily... Or ever. No matter what experts, be they independent or supported by beliefs and agricultural corporations, may say.

[van]

the same can be said about those peoples living in the northern part of the world for countless hundreds of generations, never eating bananas or durian,  and those living near the equator.   They didn't have any chance of adapting to bananas...  Any yet we don't say that if we have northern European blood lines, 'Don't eat a banana!'      It's so easy to mentally try to figure things out.

  Oh that's right, I forgot, before they migrated to the northern regions,  they had had their fill of bananas before they left.  Hmm, I wonder if that's why they left, the 30 banana a day diet eventually didn't satisfy. 

[JeuneKoq]

the same can be said about those peoples living in the northern part of the world for countless hundreds of generations, never eating bananas or durian,  and those living near the equator.   They didn't have any chance of adapting to bananas...  Any yet we don't say that if we have northern European blood lines, 'Don't eat a banana!'      It's so easy to mentally try to figure things out.

  Oh that's right, I forgot, before they migrated to the northern regions,  they had had their fill of bananas before they left.  Hmm, I wonder if that's why they left, the 30 banana a day diet eventually didn't satisfy. 

Lol yeah perhaps  I guess your right, however bananas are not constituted the same way as milk, which is a food rich in specific hormones and nutrients exclusively aimed to the nutrition and development of the little one of a particular specie. And bananas are much more easily available for human consumption than the milk of another animal, in times prior to the Neolithic era (agriculture), if those ancient humans would happen to end up in an area where bananas grow.

Humans also had access to fruits native to America such as tomatoes or deep sea fishes very late in their evolutionary course, but I think humans can do better on these kind of food because they "behave" in a similar way to other foods (fruits, vegetables, meat) with one's organism as opposed to milk, which is a food specifically produced-for and directed to one particular specie's younglings, and to them only.
Apparently Japanese kids who where introduced to dairy, a center piece of the Occidental diet, noticeably grew in size as compared to their parents, but demonstrated issues in brain development and intelligence. In fact the milk calves feed on is meant for them to develop important bone mass, and little brain. While it is almost the opposite with human milk (lots of brain, less bone mass).

But this subject has been discussed countless times, and as it has more or less been agreed by the members of this forum that milk is not a common"Paleo" food. I guess it only comes to the individual to experiment for himself, and take responsibility for doing so when the person decides to eat such food on a regular basis.

[Iguana]

They didn't have any chance of adapting to bananas...

They didn't have any chance either of adapting to livestock such as beef, mutton or pork !   

But this subject has been discussed countless times, and as it has more or less been agreed by the members of this forum that milk is not a common "Paleo" food, I guess it only comes to the individual to experiment for himself, and take responsibility for doing so when the person decides to eat such food on a regular basis.

Absolutely and even more so: it’s unanimously agreed that milk (breastfed infant excepted) is a neolithic-modern food, just as cereal grains.

Some time later, the whole family joined by two friends (one of them I know very well) started to eat all raw. As a physicist, GCB is a very meticulous experimenter and observer (I found it out when he stayed a few months at my place). They started from scratch, questioning all the contemporary beliefs in nutrition and they set up a whole series of experiments on mice, other animals and themselves. I think one of their first findings was that our alimentary instinctive regulation works well enough with unprocessed stuff, but is severely hampered by cooked, spiced, processed and mixed stuff. 

Luckily, after a while on 100% raw food, especially GCB himself started to get strong reactions when he eats something which is not ok and this helped a lot to identify the foods which should not be eaten. They came to suspect wheat as a troublesome food, and this was well confirmed with the mice experiments. At the time, they were vegetarians, because nobody around had ever thought that we could eat raw meat. I don’t know whether they ate eggs, we should ask him.

They drank milk from an organic farmer because the idea that milk isn’t a initial food had not yet emerged from anybody’s mind. But after some time, GCB started to suspect that something was wrong with that milk since every time he drank some, he had troubles. Thus, they bought a goat to have their own controlled source of perfect milk. Still it seemed to induce troubles and they also noticed that it doesn’t trigger any neat instinctive stop. Himself drank it by periods, perhaps one or two months with milk and one or two without. Then it was clear that it was milk which triggered problems, such as infections of wounds or even without apparent reasons.

It took some serious debate and thinking to find out the reason, until GCB realized that milk consumption could only have appeared after the domestication of animals, about 8000 years ago. So, they suppressed all milk from their diet and thus became vegan or almost.

Then…

[PaleoPhil]

the same can be said about those peoples living in the northern part of the world for countless hundreds of generations, never eating bananas or durian,  and those living near the equator.   They didn't have any chance of adapting to bananas...  Any yet we don't say that if we have northern European blood lines, 'Don't eat a banana!'      It's so easy to mentally try to figure things out.

Really? Oh knoes! I ate TWO bananas today! I's gonna die from the carbos!    

[PaleoPhil]

They didn't have any chance either of adapting to livestock such as beef, mutton or pork !   

Is there nothing we can eat? 

[Iguana]

I meant bananas are a fruit as beef is a meat. I eat both!

[eveheart]

Is there nothing we can eat? 

Relax! In terms of this discussion of the adult diet, this animal flesh is like that animal flesh, and the same similarities apply to other human foods; whereas milk is completely unlike other dietary components. Maybe that makes sense, or maybe I'm just looking for a simple reason why milk is so "toxic" to me.

[Iguana]

Glad you understood me! I guess Phil was joking.

[JeuneKoq]

Absolutely and even more so: it’s unanimously agreed that milk (breastfed infant excepted) is a neolithic-modern food, just as cereal grains.

Yep, sounds right to me!

Relax! In terms of this discussion of the adult diet, this animal flesh is like that animal flesh, and the same similarities apply to other human foods; whereas milk is completely unlike other dietary components. Maybe that makes sense, or maybe I'm just looking for a simple reason why milk is so "toxic" to me.

That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better than me 

[PaleoPhil]

Glad you understood me! I guess Phil was joking.

Yup!  I'm not afraid of either domesticated meats or bananas.

On a more serious note, questions like the one in the original post can only be answered for sure by the individual himself/herself. No one can know what's going to work for someone else.

It's a bit strange that Westerners tend to be more willing to eat fish raw than beef. Isn't fish more likely to contain parasites, rather than less? I read that somewhere.

[goodsamaritan]

You must mean fresh water fish may have more parasites?

[PaleoPhil]

Yeah, especially fresh water fish. I've seen parasites in multiple fresh water fish, never in beef.

And I've bitten into "sashimi-quality" fresh raw fish that had gone somewhat bad. The only time that happened with beef was when I left it way too long in the fridge in a sealed plastic bag.

[van]

Lol yeah perhaps  I guess your right, however bananas are not constituted the same way as milk, which is a food rich in specific hormones and nutrients exclusively aimed to the nutrition and development of the little one of a particular specie. And bananas are much more easily available for human consumption than the milk of another animal, in times prior to the Neolithic era (agriculture), if those ancient humans would happen to end up in an area where bananas grow.

Humans also had access to fruits native to America such as tomatoes or deep sea fishes very late in their evolutionary course, but I think humans can do better on these kind of food because they "behave" in a similar way to other foods (fruits, vegetables, meat) with one's organism as opposed to milk, which is a food specifically produced-for and directed to one particular specie's younglings, and to them only.
Apparently Japanese kids who where introduced to dairy, a center piece of the Occidental diet, noticeably grew in size as compared to their parents, but demonstrated issues in brain development and intelligence. In fact the milk calves feed on is meant for them to develop important bone mass, and little brain. While it is almost the opposite with human milk (lots of brain, less bone mass).

But this subject has been discussed countless times, and as it has more or less been agreed by the members of this forum that milk is not a common"Paleo" food. I guess it only comes to the individual to experiment for himself, and take responsibility for doing so when the person decides to eat such food on a regular basis.

   I say this a lot, so pardon the repetitiveness,,  milk from animals,  even if it comes from hay, is a different food from milk from animals eating only green grass.  This is not even mentioning the bigger differences from pasteurization, homogenization, grain feeding, close filthy living quarters, inoculations and hormones added to feed stuff.     To really know whether of not milk will work for you is to first make sure you have lactose digesting enzymes present in abundance in your colon, and begin with milk by ingesting very very small amounts and increasing over some weeks, even months guaranteeing that the colonies of bacteria are growing to handle the lactose.  Typically one will have problems simply ingesting milk if one has been off dairy for some years, especially if you've had doses of antibiotics. 
    My opinion, I doubt very seriously that proper milk ingested by those with proper cultured intestines will contribute to a decrease in intelligence.  If that were so, prior to the industrial revolution, the world would  be dumb.  But then I'm sure there are those that would think that was the case. 

[van]

Really? Oh knoes! I ate TWO bananas today! I's gonna die from the carbos!    

     that's my point, we don't die, and we do adapt very readily from foods our ancestors have never eaten for thousands of years.
   Well except, I guess, there are diseases that apparently come from an overload of sugar and insulin responses causing all sorts or complications over the long term.  But not short term at least. 

[Joy2012]

Thanks to all for advice on milk.

One thing I keep thinking about is that the Bible calls the Promised Land "a land flowing with milk and honey." It appears that raw natural honey and raw grass-fed dairy should be something good.

[eveheart]

One thing I keep thinking about is that the Bible calls the Promised Land "a land flowing with milk and honey." It appears that raw natural honey and raw grass-fed dairy should be something good.

That phrase was written well after the paleolithic era! And it's no wonder that milk and honey were mentioned... Milk (before the fat is skimmed out) is a creamy delicacy with none of the gaminess of animal fat. Honey's natural sweetness was around long before mankind invented extraction of concentrated sugar from plant juices. Magnify this by the fact that the land was actually a desert, and it's easy to imagine that the phrase was nothing more than a metaphor for the life of abundance.

Anyways, even nowadays, the foods that signal opulent dining are not always good. I guess I live in the Land of Milk Duds and Honey-Toasted O's.

[cherimoya_kid]

Yeah, especially fresh water fish. I've seen parasites in multiple fresh water fish, never in beef.

And I've bitten into "sashimi-quality" fresh raw fish that had gone somewhat bad. The only time that happened with beef was when I left it way too long in the fridge in a sealed plastic bag.

Beef pretty much never has parasites, but wild game can have trichinosis. I do eat raw wild game, but I recognize the risks. Saltwater fish generally don't carry parasites that humans can get.

[Joy2012]

 I guess I live in the Land of Milk Duds and Honey-Toasted O's.

Haha. That is the paradise of  your grandkids.

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

Eventually man is going to adapt to high fructose corn syrup and soybean oil diet.

[TylerDurden]

Eventually man is going to adapt to high fructose corn syrup and soybean oil diet.

But "adaptation" to such foods might have to involve  having a much smaller brain with accompanying low IQ plus a lowered immune-system etc.

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

Very true!

[JeuneKoq]

One thing I keep thinking about is that the Bible calls the Promised Land "a land flowing with milk and honey." It appears that raw natural honey and raw grass-fed dairy should be something good.

Jesus also said "eat bread, it's my flesh", so gluten must be Paleo too?  Just kiding

[eveheart]

Jesus also said "eat bread, it's my flesh", so gluten must be Paleo too?  Just kiding

Yeah, however the part where he said, "Just kidding," was left out of the canon.

[PaleoPhil]

     that's my point, we don't die, and we do adapt very readily from foods our ancestors have never eaten for thousands of years.

Yeah, I was just trying to be funny. Unfortunately some Paleoists do take things too literally and avoid some foods just because they weren't specifically consumed by their ancestors (yet eat others that they aren't aware weren't consumed by their ancestors). Due to the influence of Cordain and Audette, I leaned a bit too heavily in that direction myself early on, until I later learned more and thought it through.

Beef pretty much never has parasites, but wild game can have trichinosis. I do eat raw wild game, but I recognize the risks. Saltwater fish generally don't carry parasites that humans can get.

Yeah, I'm not concerned about it, and I've seen reports that even most of the parasites in freshwater fish just go right through humans and provoke little or no symptoms. I just find it strange that many Westerners are so afraid to eat beef raw.

FWIW, some reports do claim that a parasitic infection can be also acquired from saltwater fish, and it's a major reason why saltwater sashimi fish is required to be frozen, though cases are rare and I'm not concerned about it (http://seafoodhealthfacts.org/seafood_safety/patients/parasites.php, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3868394/#eot008-B117)