Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?

[dariorpl]

Humans are the only mammal species I'm aware of where females develop udders/breasts and can lactate without getting pregnant and giving birth. Archeologists explain this by the idea that in hunter-gatherer tribes, all the females shared the raising and breastfeeding of all the babies in the tribe, which I certainly agree with. Although that is a lot of milk production for only the babies of the tribe. Under normal conditions, there would be many more women than children of breastfeeding age in a tribe. A single woman's milk production is generally enough to feed her own babies, especially if she is healthy, which she would've been.

I think what was actually going on is that milk was shared among all the tribe, not just the children, but adults too. It's inefficient if you look at it calorie-wise, but it could very well be efficient if you look at it nutrient-wise. Especially if they were also fermenting the milk and making it into cheese.

If that's not the case, I don't understand why animal herders later on, would begin drinking the milk of their herd as adults, if milk was disgusting to them. It makes much more sense to me that they would've already been used to consuming dairy as adults, and realized that they could milk their animals too.

[TylerDurden]

Errr, the point is that raw human mothers' milk is palaeo but that other animals' milk is definitely not palaeo.

[eveheart]

How are you defining paleo? What sort of evidence are you using to place your theory into the paleolithic era?

[dariorpl]

Errr, the point is that raw human mothers' milk is palaeo but that other animals' milk is definitely not palaeo.

Ok, but if human dairy is paleo (and not just mother's milk), then it's not a huge difference to have other animals' dairy, or it might not be, and that was my point. Just like whenever you eat foods from any animal or plant species that isn't 100% wild, you are consuming food from a species that would not have been available in paleo times, but as long as it's close enough, it's fine.

How are you defining paleo? What sort of evidence are you using to place your theory into the paleolithic era?

By paleo I mean that it would've been normal for paleolithic humans and/or proto-humans. My only evidence is what I mentioned in the post above.

[TylerDurden]

Mothers' milk from other animals is too high or low in fat and is specifically designed to feed its own particular species, not other species.

[JeuneKoq]

Humans are the only mammal species I'm aware of where females develop udders/breasts and can lactate without getting pregnant and giving birth.

My dog does the same. After her heat time, she has a week where she becomes totally hysterical and tries to dig a nesting area, even if she's not pregnant. Her mammals start to slightly lactate too. That's because she has to be able to take care of the Alpha female's little ones.

http://dogs.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Canine_False_Pregnancy

"Signs of Canine False Pregnancy

Lactation - The breasts generally swell a bit due to the hormonal changes involved with each stage of a dog's cycle, but a female that is going through an extended false pregnancy may actually begin milk production. You may notice a bit of milk leaking from one or more teats, or you may be able to express a little milk manually. This is not recommended because it can stimulate further production and prolong the condition."

So no, humans are not the only ones. And I don't think adult dogs (or their wolf ancestors) go and suck on the female's mammals to drink their milk. Might be wrong on this one though, but I doubt it.

[dariorpl]

That's very interesting Jeune. I don't know enough about dogs or wolves to know if they do or don't drink milk as adults, but I would assume not.

[eveheart]

I've never observed a child who does not wean - and I'm sure there are uncommon exceptions - so it is hard to envision adults drinking human milk as a culinary habit. I don't think the milk becomes "disgusting" but that the instinct to suckle disappears.

Milk is a convenient food that the herder doesn't have to carry. He can herd his animals for days and have a supply of food. Also, drinking the milk of their herds seems logical in terms of utilizing every part of the animal.

[Joy2012]

Mothers' milk from other animals is too high or low in fat and is specifically designed to feed its own particular species, not other species.

Cattle or sheep or oysters are not specifically designed to feed raw paleo people. Yes? No?

[eveheart]

Cattle or sheep or oysters are not specifically designed to feed raw paleo people. Yes? No?

Curious question. In terms of what each species is designed for: each species is designed to reproduce its own kind. Collaterally, carnivorous and omnivorous species eat the flesh of other species. That's way off the logic behind each species' milk being specifically designed for its offspring. TD is talking about mammalian milk being designed to meet the growth needs of its own species. For example, a fast growing small animal's milk would have less calcium than a fast growing large animal's milk. Human milk is designed for slow growing humans and is nowhere near approximated by bovine milk.

[JeuneKoq]

TD is talking about mammalian milk being designed to meet the growth needs of its own species. For example, a fast growing small animal's milk would have less calcium than a fast growing large animal's milk. Human milk is designed for slow growing humans and is nowhere near approximated by bovine milk.

That's right, cow milk is designed to make their calves grow big and dumb: high intelligence is not necessary to their specie, but being able to outrun predators (at an early age) is. Humans, on the other hand, have the luxury to grow slowly since they can be carried by their mother untill a certain age. What's important to the specie, on the other hand, is to develop great intelligence.

Cow milk has three times more calcium than human milk, but also a high dose of phosphate which actually inhibits the absorption of calcium in the gut. The result, quite ironically, often is greater risk of hypocalcemia. This is the reason why dairy companies must add vitamin D3 to their milk to make its calcium content more-or-less digestible.

Other than that, their is also the issue of specie-specific hormones and proteins that cannot be properly broken down and utilized by another specie's organism, which often leads to gradually increasing health complications, or even death if the person is too young and/or too exclusively fed on it.

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

What about drinking the milk of another carnivore? would be interesting!

[JeuneKoq]

What about drinking the milk of another carnivore? would be interesting!

Drink some wolf's milk, you might actually turn into... a werewolf!! 

[Joy2012]

You raw paleo guys are too intelligent for me to confuse you. 

[cherimoya_kid]

There are really 4 problems with milk-drinking in adult humans.

1. Too much calcium without enough magnesium. Calcium without magnesium scars the arteries and promotes heart disease.

2. Too much phosphorus, which makes the calcium hard to absorb, and therefore promotes bone weakness and osteoporosis. I didn't know this until today, although it's a minor point.

3. Most people can't digest lactose beyond the age of 2.

4. Many people are allergic to the proteins in milk, as well.

However, I do use grassfed raw cream and butter, because they get around all these problems pretty well, since they are low in protein and lactose (butter has none of either).

[sabertooth]

I wonder if someone was raised on breast milk form birth until adulthood, if they would maintain their ability to optimally digest it?
There are stories of 8 year olds nursing without any issues with intolerance whatsoever, so perhaps these primal dieters who claim to do well with dairy would absolutely thrive if they could get a hold of some fresh squeezed paleo momma milk?

[sabertooth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2kxRs75Myo

[Joy2012]

There are really 4 problems with milk-drinking in adult humans.

1. Too much calcium without enough magnesium. Calcium without magnesium scars the arteries and promotes heart disease.

2. Too much phosphorus, which makes the calcium hard to absorb, and therefore promotes bone weakness and osteoporosis. I didn't know this until today, although it's a minor point.

Some say that over-abundant minerals in whole foods don't cause harm; they exit the body naturally. Only the manufactured supplements cause harm. What do you think?

[cherimoya_kid]

Some say that over-abundant minerals in whole foods don't cause harm; they exit the body naturally. Only the manufactured supplements cause harm. What do you think?

I think it depends on

1. If you have enough of the co-factors (in the case of calcium, vitamins D and K)

2. Your genetics

the rawness and unprocessed-ness is a factor, but certainly not the only one.

[Joy2012]

Thanks.

[eveheart]

Back in the early days of warnings against cows milk (in the last half of the twentieth century), the bone health of milk drinkers was compared to the bone health of cultures that do not drink milk. In examining the diet of the non-milk drinkers, calcium was found to be supplied by vegetables and seeds. Despite the fact that a milk-drinkers diet has an abundance of calcium, bone health is better is populations who get less calcium from plant sources.

Bottom line: if you avoid the unbalanced calcium in milk, bone health is easier to maintain with less daily calcium.

[dariorpl]

cherimoya_kid, if too much calcium is a problem, but not enough calcium absorption is also a problem, don't those two cancel each other out?

eveheart, the second half of the twentieth century is also when raw milk was made illegal pretty much world-wide, as pasteurization became both commonplace and mandatory.

sabertooth, I can't say that I know from experience that raw dairy is healthy, because I haven't been able to find any. So I'm basically doing raw paleo, with occasional cooked grains mixed with a lot of fats, the way AV recommended (since I haven't been able to find reliable raw nuts which is what he recommended instead of starches, and even if I did, I can't get coconut cream which he said to mix with the nuts).  When I'm able to try raw dairy, I will report back on this thread to see what happens. I fully expect symptoms to appear that I would think are detoxes, but of course you can disagree. The only real way to tell if something is a detox or not, is to do a lab test on the tissue being detoxed, and look for toxins that could not be present in daily intake, and in particular, toxins that aren't found in your supply of dairy; but I don't think I'll be able to afford those anytime soon.

I'll also take this opportunity to let you know that I think your videos are awesome and it's refreshing to see someone who is willing to put themselves out there on the open like that. We all know what most people think about us. I look forward to the future instances of your new series, and I've been sharing your videos with lots of people.

[cherimoya_kid]

cherimoya_kid, if too much calcium is a problem, but not enough calcium absorption is also a problem, don't those two cancel each other out?

You found a logical flaw. Good. finally, someone is thinking. Well, logic it out, and if you don't know enough facts to logic it out, research it. The long-timers here mostly either avoid dairy, or use it very carefully, like me.  That should be a partial guide for you, but I encourage you to pursue this if you find it interesting.

[Raw Matt18]

I like raw dairy products tho I do still agree raw animal fats are superior, tho I am eating lots of raw dairy to gain weight because I have severe damage to my glands hence the anxiety and low weight problems I've always had so I'm my view there helping me to gain weight and remove the damage because of the high fat in raw dairy is helping me tho in later I may stop or slow down dairy products but for now I think there helping

[sabertooth]

Whats the consensus on colostrum, being the first milk full of immune stimulating proteins as well as prebiotic substances, it may be better tolerated and help one to be able to better adapt to raw dairy.

I cant handle raw dairy at all, and after a week of drinking small amounts each day my gut gets fouled up and I feel bloated and mucusy. But after watching a vitals video I was curious and bought a small container of surthrival colostrum and have used about 4 teaspoons a day this week. So far I have felt an energy boost and my digestion is working just fine, so there may be some benefit for those who want to experiment with dairy to first try out a high quality  colostrum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USzPc0bzDH0
I'm not selling anything and am not completely sold on the stuff yet, but I would like some input before I begin buying it by the kilogram and eating it every day?