Are you sure that dairy isn't paleo?

[cherimoya_kid]

Avocados are paleo. Dairy is not. I do use some grassfed butter sometimes, but dairy is too allergenic for most adults, other than maybe butter. That's not dogma, it's fact.

[dariorpl]

(not really sure when butter started being made, but surely not before the agricultural revolution).

only raw milk could be considered as being potentially Paleo.

What are you basing this conclusion on? Do you know how butter is made? All you need to make butter is milk, two containers and any kind of utensil that acts like a spoon.

[karluk]

Humans started eating dairy very early on, perhaps early in their transition from hunter-gatherers to slightly more settled pastoralist life, but still definitely pre-agricultural. The Mongols and Kazakhs still "hunt" wild mares for their milk - they'd rope them, milk them and release them again. Some humans might be descended from stocks who didn't drink milk but that's no reason for paleo practitioners to avoid milk, in my view.

Check this video on youtube: gKjz2ae3mYU

[cherimoya_kid]

Humans started eating dairy very early on, perhaps early in their transition from hunter-gatherers to slightly more settled pastoralist life, but still definitely pre-agricultural. The Mongols and Kazakhs still "hunt" wild mares for their milk - they'd rope them, milk them and release them again. Some humans might be descended from stocks who didn't drink milk but that's no reason for paleo practitioners to avoid milk, in my view.

Check this video on youtube: gKjz2ae3mYU

I don't care about people's views. We have seen many times how allergenic raw dairy is, a lot of anecdotal data. Fact.

[TylerDurden]

Humans started eating dairy very early on, perhaps early in their transition from hunter-gatherers to slightly more settled pastoralist life, but still definitely pre-agricultural. The Mongols and Kazakhs still "hunt" wild mares for their milk - they'd rope them, milk them and release them again. Some humans might be descended from stocks who didn't drink milk but that's no reason for paleo practitioners to avoid milk, in my view.

Check this video on youtube: gKjz2ae3mYU

The pro-dairy ethnic argument is easily debunked. THE biggest complaint among RVAF diet newbies is an allergy towards raw dairy. This applies even to a lot of people with Northern European ancestry, myself included, despite the claim that Northern Europeans are least affected by such an allergy. Simply put, all humans start losing their ability to digest lactose(and probably casein) as they get older, albeit at different rates, so it is unwise to consume it unless one is 100% sure it is not affecting one.

Some allergenic foods can be very insidious for some people, in that there might be no overt immediate negative symptoms that occur when they consume it, but which are still harmful and block any improvement in health.

The length of time argument re raw dairy is also easily proven bogus. Pandas have been eating bamboo for 5 million years or so and are still almost wholly adapted to eating raw meat. We humans have  been consuming raw dairy for  anywhere from only 100 to 7000 to max. 20,000 years ago, depending on past ethnic groups and lifestyles. We humans have been eating cooked foods for 300,000 years (some even claim 1.2 million!) and have still not adapted to cooked foods, given plentiful evidence of harm caused by advanced glycation end products and similiar cooked-food toxins.

[dariorpl]

The length of time argument re raw dairy is also easily proven bogus. Pandas have been eating bamboo for 5 million years or so and are still almost wholly adapted to eating raw meat. We humans have  been consuming raw dairy for  anywhere from only 100 to 7000 to max. 20,000 years ago, depending on past ethnic groups and lifestyles.

Wrong. Humans, along with all mammals and previously the mammaliaformes have been consuming dairy for around 235 million years. Give a cat raw milk and it will do well on it. And humans are particularly adapted among the mammals to consuming dairy as adults.

We humans have been eating cooked foods for 300,000 years (some even claim 1.2 million!) and have still not adapted to cooked foods, given plentiful evidence of harm caused by advanced glycation end products and similiar cooked-food toxins.

There is little evidence for this. Some believe humans did not even start building fires until 35k years ago, let alone cooking anything (fire was first and foremost used for heat, scaring away dangerous animals, and for light). And if and when they did start cooking things, it would mostly be grains, legumes and tubers, not meat. The only animal product that they might have cooked at the beginning would be bones, to make bone broth and extract the marrow without having to break open the bones. But only the women with no men around would do that, and only for very thick bones from large animals. Men would just pick up a rock and break open the bones to get to the marrow inside (or break the skull to get the brain).

[cherimoya_kid]

TylerDurden's teeth got terrifyingly loose while eating a lot of raw dairy. Mine were also worryingly loose back when I consumed tremendous amounts of raw goat milk. At the time I wasn't sure of the cause, but now I'm pretty certain. Anecdotal data wins, because people should avoid foods that cause these types of problems.

[JeuneKoq]

Wrong. Humans, along with all mammals and previously the mammaliaformes have been consuming dairy for around 235 million years.

You're aware that we are discussing the consumption of milk 1) from other species, 2) after infancy?

Give a cat raw milk and it will do well on it. And humans are particularly adapted among the mammals to consuming dairy as adults.

Some, and those who do probably don't thrive on it. Hip fracture, which is linked to osteoporosis, has been proliferous in the western world, and in major Asian cities since the introduction of milk.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jos/2010/757102/

again: "A major study concluded that in a Japan population aged 35 years or older the crude incidence of hip fracture was 244.8 per 100,000 person years from 2004 to 2006, and the gender-specific incidence was 99.6 per 100,000 person years for men and 368 per 100,000 person years for women [12]. When data was analysed and compared with that from 30 years ago it was also concluded that there is an increasing incidence of hip fracture in Japanese populations."

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jos/2010/757102/tab1/
One thing most noticeable on this chart is how Hong-Kong, China's most westenized city, has more than double the cases of hip fracture than Beijing.

And if and when they did start cooking things, it would mostly be grains, legumes and tubers, not meat. The only animal product that they might have cooked at the beginning would be bones, to make bone broth and extract the marrow without having to break open the bones. But only the women with no men around would do that, and only for very thick bones from large animals. Men would just pick up a rock and break open the bones to get to the marrow inside (or break the skull to get the brain).

I never read they avoided cooking meat in the early days? Where did you read that?

[JeuneKoq]

People need to realize that milk is just addictive, and that it's neither necessary, nor is it truly beneficial. It's packed with opioids, just like wheat: Only it can be drank raw, and to this day it still enjoys such a glamorous aura (It's white and sweet, and it reminds people of the good old days when they had nothing to worry about, tight against their mother's breasts).

If you want to build stronger bones, getting plenty of vitamin D is more important than getting a lot of calcium, which you already do if you eat a varied diet. I think the calcium/magnesium ratio also plays an important part in this regard.

http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Vitamin-D-appears-more-important-than-high-calcium-for-bones

[dariorpl]

TylerDurden's teeth got terrifyingly loose while eating a lot of raw dairy. Mine were also worryingly loose back when I consumed tremendous amounts of raw goat milk. At the time I wasn't sure of the cause, but now I'm pretty certain. Anecdotal data wins, because people should avoid foods that cause these types of problems.

Well my teeth were loose when I was eating cooked, and became stronger on raw meat, and even stronger still with the addition of plenty of raw dairy. Aajonus's teeth were extremely loose and healed primarily on raw milk.

[dariorpl]

Some, and those who do probably don't thrive on it. Hip fracture, which is linked to osteoporosis, has been proliferous in the western world, and in major Asian cities since the introduction of milk.

That's pasteurized milk. Please, we've been over this.

I never read they avoided cooking meat in the early days? Where did you read that?

There is no reason to cook meat, as meat is perfectly edible raw, and becomes toxic when cooked. It's perfectly digestible when raw and becomes significantly less digestible when cooked. There is reason to cook grains, legumes and tubers, as they either turn from barely edible into edible, or from inedible to edible, and digestion can increase significantly when cooking them, although they do become toxic at the same time.

People need to realize that milk is just addictive, and that it's neither necessary, nor is it truly beneficial.

Lots of people improve their health significantly when adding raw dairy. And most of the world became increasingly less healthy after abandoning raw dairy, when States made mass scale pasteurization of milk mandatory, and made raw milk illegal or close to illegal.

[TylerDurden]

http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm

The above article focuses on the negative effects of calcium in all dairy, whether raw or pasteurised.JK's points re hip fractures and dairy still holds therefore as the same problem would happen with raw dairy as well given the above article.

The other issue with raw dairy is that it comes (mainly) from cows and is genetically designed to benefit only calves therefore. Now if we all had access to lots and lots of raw human milk  and most of us reduced or stopped its consumption as we reached past adulthood, then that would be fine,

[dariorpl]

http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm

The above article focuses on the negative effects of calcium in all dairy, whether raw or pasteurised.JK's points re hip fractures and dairy still holds therefore as the same problem would happen with raw dairy as well given the above article.

You already linked me to that and as I told you, he doesn't even mention raw dairy. In any case, focusing on calcium as a problem in all milk, when the problem is really from pasteurized milk, is another intellectualism that has not proven to be true in reality.

The other issue with raw dairy is that it comes (mainly) from cows and is genetically designed to benefit only calves therefore.

That's not true. First, milk of any mammal will nourish any mammal, and even non mammals also. Secondly, we have been drinking cows milk for thousands of years. Third, cows (and sheep and goats) have been selectively bred for higher quality milk, that is, milk that is more nourishing to us humans, for thousands of generations.

Pottenger's cats thrived on raw milk. How much exposure do you think cats had to cows milk compared to humans? How much is cows milk designed / selected to nourish cats?

[TylerDurden]

You already linked me to that and as I told you, he doesn't even mention raw dairy. In any case, focusing on calcium as a problem in all milk, when the problem is really from pasteurized milk, is another intellectualism that has not proven to be true in reality.

This is just stupid, now. The fact is that Wai was referring to ALL dairy, whether raw or pasteurised. He was focusing on the harmful effects of excess calcium from milk. Excess calcium exists in both raw and pasteurised milk. *sigh* The calcium/magnesium ratio, which is related to this, is a scientific fact:-
http://deliciousliving.com/blog/time-ditch-21-calcium-magnesium-ratio

That's not true. First, milk of any mammal will nourish any mammal, and even non mammals also. Secondly, we have been drinking cows milk for thousands of years. Third, cows (and sheep and goats) have been selectively bred for higher quality milk, that is, milk that is more nourishing to us humans, for thousands of generations.

A few thousands of years is not enough(7500-11,000 years ago) for full adaptation. Note how even those few humans who have lactase adaptation start losing their adaptation as they enter adulthood:-
http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471

As I have pointed out we have not adapted to cooked foods despite eating them for 300,000 years. So 7500 years is certainly not enough for full adaptation.
The milk of any mammal claim is just wrong. For example, one of the reasons why the notion of feral children is disputed to a large extent is because it has been shown that human infants die if they consume wolf milk. Cows' milk, while not as toxic, still has way too much casein in it and is a food full of hormones, designed to make a calf reach adult size within 2 years. Human milk, by contrast, is designed to sustain a much larger brain compared to the body, and so on and on.

Pottenger's cats thrived on raw milk. How much exposure do you think cats had to cows milk compared to humans? How much is cows milk designed / selected to nourish cats?

I do not view the Pottenger experiment as any good. Plus, it did not even bother to check if cats fed on raw (grassfed/wild)meat but no raw dairy were healthier than the other cats. Quite obviously, cats would do best on a diet consisting of foods their wild counterparts ate for millions of years.

[JeuneKoq]

For example, one of the reasons why the notion of feral children is disputed to a large extent is because it has been shown that human infants die if they consume wolf milk.

I'm going off-topic here, but the realistic interpretation to Romulus and Remus's myth is that they where actually taken care of by a prostitute, and not a wolf as previously believed, since the latin lupa both describes a wolf and a prostitute. 

[RogueFarmer]

Milk consumption has had the exact opposite effect on my teeth that Tyler Durden describes. I have tooth pain unless I drink milk regularly. My teeth were loose and in chronic pain until I started consuming it in a much higher volume than I had previously, at least 5 gallons a week.

I recommend dairy as a food for no other reason than it is economical and a good way to restore health in people with little money or means or squeamish about raw meat and especially organs.

[cherimoya_kid]

RogueFarmer, there definitely are some people who have experiences like yours. Many don't, however, and raw dairy is very tempting and addictive.

[TylerDurden]

I'm going off-topic here, but the realistic interpretation to Romulus and Remus's myth is that they where actually taken care of by a prostitute, and not a wolf as previously believed, since the latin lupa both describes a wolf and a prostitute. 

Interesting, I never heard of that before.

[dariorpl]

As I have pointed out we have not adapted to cooked foods despite eating them for 300,000 years.

And as I pointed out, that is highly unlikely to be the case, and even if it was, it's highly unlikely that they would've been cooking a lot of foods a lot of the time. Also, cooking is a much more drastic change to adapt to than simply keeping the ability to thrive on milk as adults as they did as children. Which I don't even think is a thing, as I mentioned, both humans and other animals thrive on raw milk while fully developed.

The milk of any mammal claim is just wrong. For example, one of the reasons why the notion of feral children is disputed to a large extent is because it has been shown that human infants die if they consume wolf milk.

Shown by who? They also claim to have shown that raw meat causes horrible diseases and parasites and can lead to death.

[TylerDurden]

And as I pointed out, that is highly unlikely to be the case, and even if it was, it's highly unlikely that they would've been cooking a lot of foods a lot of the time. Also, cooking is a much more drastic change to adapt to than simply keeping the ability to thrive on milk as adults as they did as children. Which I don't even think is a thing, as I mentioned, both humans and other animals thrive on raw milk while fully developed.

Nonsense for several obvious reasons. For one thing, humans are the only mammals who regularly consume dairy, raw or otherwise, past infancy.Wild animals don't, and so are not adapted to it.  Also, only humans retain the ability to digest lactose in adulthood, and then only a few humans, with all those relevant humans anyway gradually losing their ability to digest lactose as they get ever older.

As to whether humans have been eating their foods cooked or not in pre-Neolithic times, that is irrelevant, there is still the fact that humans still have not adapted to cooked foods despite the 100s of thousands of years involved.

Shown by who? They also claim to have shown that raw meat causes horrible diseases and parasites and can lead to death.

Wolves' milk contains too much casein for human infants to absorb, apparently. Science is poor as regards food-poisoning/parasite  claims, but is excellent on the dangers of cooking such as heat-created toxins causing cancer etc.

[TylerDurden]

Another key point is that mothers routinely change their milk content to suit their infants, depending on a host of circumstances. So just drinking milk from a cup, as opposed to the usual instance of  infants sucking a nipple/teat, is definitely not as useful or healthy.

[cherimoya_kid]

Another key point is that mothers routinely change their milk content to suit their infants, depending on a host of circumstances. So just drinking milk from a cup, as opposed to the usual instance of  infants sucking a nipple/teat, is definitely not as useful or healthy.

A good point.

[Inger]

Milk consumption has had the exact opposite effect on my teeth that Tyler Durden describes. I have tooth pain unless I drink milk regularly. My teeth were loose and in chronic pain until I started consuming it in a much higher volume than I had previously, at least 5 gallons a week.

I recommend dairy as a food for no other reason than it is economical and a good way to restore health in people with little money or means or squeamish about raw meat and especially organs.

When I read this, I cant not stop thinking about that it is probably the environment that plays a big role here....
why you react so differently with Tyler

What can be good for one, might be bad for another depending on the environment you are surrounded with..... it has become clear to me lately

[TylerDurden]

When I read this, I cant not stop thinking about that it is probably the environment that plays a big role here....
why you react so differently with Tyler

What can be good for one, might be bad for another depending on the environment you are surrounded with..... it has become clear to me lately

Not environment, genetics.

[Inger]

I disagree a bit.
I think.... both