Homosexuality in the Weston Price healthy tribes?

[goodsamaritan]

I know a doctor who points to sugar as a cause of homosexuality, and I know many more doctors who point to all soy and even flaxseed as feminizing.

Ha ha, we got to talk about baldness among native american indians...

How about talking about homosexuality prevalence in the healthy old weston price visited tribes or other healthy peoples?

Anyone can attest to curing homosexuality with a return to a raw paleo diet?

[Satya]

Did I miss something?  Is this Discrimination Week on rawpaleoforum?  I know of some homosexuals who do not wish to be "cured."  I also know an ASD son of my own who can run circles around most people in mathematics, cartography and other subjects.  In fact, many ASD folks - like a whole group of aspies - wish people would leave them the frick alone instead of trying to make them fit into the square pegged societal mainstream by "curing" them of what society sees as abherrant behaviour.

[Raw Kyle]

I'm totally down with gay people, but I must admit from a biological stand point it is a negative behavior. What if the entire population of one species was homosexual? A species that depended on sexual reproduction I might add. You can see where I'm going here. But of course humans have the thinking ability to know this and would take actions to ensure reproduction with artificial insemination or just gay guys having sex with lesbians just for procreative purposes.

The worst thing about "gay" in my opinion is the terrible stuff they must go through in childhood and after from other people. I often imagined with horror how much my life would suck if I was gay and came out to my family and friends. Even if they weren't outright mean I would be able to tell they were disappointed about it.

[Satya]

Right, but from a biological standpoint, many animals exhibit homosexual behaviour.  Once, it was argued by a lesbian on a Weston Price group, that having a segment of a social animal population not active in reproduction helps to ensure survival of the group by helping in the rearing of children and other supportive roles that those active in reproduction cannot always fill.  There is never any more than a small percentage of the population that is homosexual anyway, so neither the "put them on an island and let them reproduce" argument nor the argument "the species is doomed if all are gay" you suggest really apply.  Homosexual behavior exists, not only in our own species, and it has for a long time.  Besides, often a small sample of individuals cannot breed.  And iirc, it is really only social animals like orcas and primates that have any homosexuality at all. So, perhaps there is some selective pressure to have these individuals in our midst, even though they may always be a small minority.  And I think that this kind of discourse is useful, whereas labelling someone as weird and trying to cure them is not.

Without getting too political on this board, nor revealing too much of my naturally conservative nature (at least for an atheist), I do disagree with adoption for same sex couples.  This is because it is not a situation that could exist in nature.  Reproduction requires heterosexual contact in the absence of modern technology.

[yon yonson]

i dont think it's "negative behavior." there have been studies that have shown that there is homosexual behavior in countless species of wild animals. i mean you're right in a sense; being homosexual will not pass on your genes, but the studies have shown that homosexual behavior is beneficial to the whole community of animals. it was shown to create stronger social bonds and whatnot. anyways, i dont have the study on hand, i read it in a magazine a while back.

also, at goodsamaritan. i would be careful talking about homosexuality like its a disease that needs to be "cured."

[TylerDurden]

I think I ought to make some points, here. First of all, this subject of homosexuality and the Weston-Price diet was once raised in the native nutrition yahoo group, so , presumably, it is relevant as Weston-Price made some claims re criminals turning to crime due to poor nutrition, so that it's  permissible to discuss how other groups might be affected by diet(I have no idea if Weston-Price ever mentioned homosexuality but it turns out there have been articles by non-WAPFers linking soy-consumption to increased incidence fo homosexuality). However, given that that subject,as I recall, caused a huge uproar on that other forum, it would be best to move this topic to the Hot Topics forum. I'll do so.

Couple of points of my own:- I don't think it's wise to assume that femininity and homosexuality are automatically related. There have been rather violent gay  figures in history such as Alexander The Great in history, who were not exactly known for being feminine or testosterone-deficient in any way. From what I understand, Ancient Greece had plenty of husbands who were bisexual(Sparta was particularly prevalent in this behaviour and Sparta was known, in particular,for its ruthless,macho, and  very aggressive not passive  behaviour re repelling invaders etc.

No idea re Native Americans and homosexuality. There is a phenomenon called "two spirit" where ancient native americans would live as male or female transvestites, but this was, apparently, nothing to do with homosexuality(though westerners chose to view it as such).

As regards the notion re homosexuality and natural selection:- Homosexuals have 1/6th(?) the number of children heterosexuals have, so, for it to persist, there must be some advantage to it for the population, if not perhaps for gays themselves. One explanation put forward is a possibility, that overpopulation limits resources so that if some people get born  gay they help reduce the potential future excess population, thus providing more resources for everyone. If this were the case, one would have to assume that Palaeolithic-era tribes had lower rates of homosexuality  than in these modern, overpopulated times. Another similiar theory I've heard is that having a non-reproducing member of the family(eg:- a gay uncle or aunt) means that the person concerned has more resources available to look after related children since that gay person isn't raising his/her own children, thus helping his/her siblings - I'm thinking more of wolf-packs where you only have 1 alpha male and 1 alpha female breeding with the other wolves in the pack not being allowed to breed but looking after the children raised by the top alpha pair(not that the other wolves are necessarily gay, though).

[Satya]

I think I ought to make some points, here. First of all, this subject of homosexuality and the Weston-Price diet was once raised in the native nutrition yahoo group, so , presumably, it is relevant as Weston-Price made some claims re criminals turning to crime due to poor nutrition, so that it's  permissible to discuss how other groups might be affected by diet(I have no idea if Weston-Price ever mentioned homosexuality but it turns out there have been articles by non-WAPFers linking soy-consumption to increased incidence fo homosexuality).

Anyone who is interested in viewing Dr. Weston Price's views on physical, mental and moral degeneration should read the chapter of his book on it here:
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price19.html

It is of some historical significance that soon after the start of the 20th century in the US, people began to view criminals and other "social misfits" as products of their environment much more than products of some genetic flaw.  However, I think Price went too far in blaming bad diet for everything from criminals to sufferers of Down's Syndrome (called Mongoloids back then).  There is more to health than diet, like exercise, outdoor activity, social support, etc.  I am sure that we could find criminals in prisons in any country around the globe with fine broad faces, good teeth and all that.  And then we have the white collar criminals, who can eat caviar, rare prime beef and oysters on the half shell all day long.  Surely their diet isn't the problem?

And look at those operations he performed!!!  If this work was of any value, it would be continued today, I would think.  I have looked and see no such palate treatments being pursued.

Furthermore, if I am not mistaken, Price visited these native groups one time and one time only.  He did not live with any one group even for the length of a season (but I would love to hear that I am wrong on this).  He asked questions, which is about as helpful scientifically as questionnaires on diet that we see today.  He did not witness infanticide if memory serves - the native way of dealing with "degenerates."  So just because he did not see problems, or report them at least, does not mean they were absent.  And I am sure he did pick and choose to make his point; you know photographing the finest faces, avoiding contradictory information.  As such, I suppose we can hold his findings in about as much light as Ancel Keys' findings which supported the lipid hypothesis and gave us 40 years of fat fear.

Price's work is of value.  Without his tour of the declining hunter-gatherer populations, we would have no clue about the diet and relative health of these peoples.  But many people today take all of his work as some sort of gospel - especially the bit on needing raw dairy for activator x (now known as vitamin k).  Many foods are rich in k.  Also grains being consumed by some.  They may have been okay despite the consumption of high carb, neolithic foods, not because of them.

Where does he write about homosexuals?  I suppose I had better read that chapter again now, as it's been over a year.

[yon yonson]

No idea re Native Americans and homosexuality. There is a phenomenon called "two spirit" where ancient native americans would live as male or female transvestites, but this was, apparently, nothing to do with homosexuality(though westerners chose to view it as such).

the two spirit people were known as the berdache. like you said, they weren't necessarily homosexuals, but were identified at an early age by their tendency towards women's roles (ie. farming). but they were highly respected in native american societies and were sometimes taken as a second wife for men. they were useful as second wives because they could generally lift heavier loads and such for helping out the family and also for defending the village when hunters were away. this kind of shows how homosexuals help society as a whole to survive.

also, tyler, i agree that homosexuality could be linked to overpopulation. it just makes logical sense to me

[goodsamaritan]

Satya, I think in your culture, there is too much political "charge" regarding homosexuality.  In my culture, the homosexuals who speak in flowery tones are found on tv, showbiz talk shows, beauty parlors, etc.  I've had homosexual employees I've hired myself. We're a lot more tolerant about them because we aren't politically "charged" about homosexuals.  One of our own nannies lives in with our former "butch" lesbian massage expert and they have adopted a little boy.

I'll get into specifics why I asked the question:

Dr. Delia Patawaran is the doctor who invented Quantum Minerals Plus.  http://www.qdynamics.com.ph/ . In her product launching last December, her opening skit was done by 3 hosts of the beautician type homosexuals and their script showed that they were endangered species as the good Dr. Patawaran has a good amount of experience in reversing homosexual effeminate behavior among her patients.  Dr. Patawaran points to diet, sugar in all its forms, that she has had wives bring along their husbands who used to be macho men in their 20s and now in their 40s were effeminate.  And Dr. Patawaran claims to have cured quite a lot of them with her diet advice, her detoxing with quantum minerals plus, etc.

A Japanese inventor, I met personally, Junji Takano who invented  http://www.pyroenergen.com claims his invention has fixed the "paranormal waves" / electrical disturbances in people, including homosexuals.  Dr. Delia Patawaran is an avid user of this machine to treat people.  I myself own one of these machines because it can help in emergency dying situations with hopeless high viral illnesses or mind blowing deadly pain and others.

Dr Patawaran and our current dr. Jaime dy Liacco (raw weston price promoter) is also up in arms against soy as it has female estrogens, same opinion as the american docs mercola, dr wong, etc.

I gave away a health book 2 years ago for christmas and 1 chapter was dedicated to pointing out that homosexuality was curable through diet.  I'll look for it.

There is an organization we coordinate with and they are former homosexuals who were "cured" in various ways and methods and they hold plays and talks for those who wish to be cured as well. 

I understand in USA culture this is a hot topic right now, which means people do not discuss it because they are so polarized about this issue.  Probably the reason I can bring up this issue is I live in a different country and city and know many doctors and and people personally who have been cured of this homosexual lifestyle.

I'm thinking seriously that raw paleo and raw weston price avoids all sugar all soy and other "bad" foods so humans are cured of whatever ails them, including homosexuality. 

My own first born son was exhibiting effeminate behavior when he was 1+ years old and we used to feed him a sugary sweetened soya snack called "taho" every morning.  My wife and I researched on this topic and discarded all soy in our diet.  Lo and behold my son is now ALL BOY at 7 years old.  So you could say I have some experience on this matter.

**update: I found my old book:

"Other healthy populations in which homosexuality was never known were the Comanche Indians, and the Hunzas. It is significant that, as reported by Dr McCarrison, in nine years he worked in Hunza he observed not one case of cancer or heart disease either."

Found in Ross Horne's Health and Survival in the 21st Century, Chapter 14, http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020122horne.21stcentury/020122ch14.html

[invisible]

I am completely fine with people being gay. It doesn't bother me. However I do believe that diet does play a role in homosexuality. I don't think that homosexuality really has anything to do with being feminine though - that is a cultural creation.

[Guittarman03]

I've gotta say I find this to be an interesting discussion.  Homosexuality is no doubt a phenomenon seen in wild animals, and from what I understand, we aren't really certain the reasons behind this behavior, is there a genetic predisposition, is it purely psychological, are there environmental factors involved?  Perhaps all of the above?  Or different reasons for different individuals?

I wouldn't put it past an RP diet to CHANGE a person's sexual preference over time, given that it changes hormone levels which affect pretty much everything in the body.  The only things I would say in constructive criticism is one, we need to have thicker skin if we're going to discuss something like this (tolerance even in the face of minor intolerance), and second, using the word "cure" when referring to CHANGES in sexual preference is probably not that great of a way to phrase it.  Saying "cure homosexuality" makes it sound like a disease, or a degenerate behavior that must be fixed.  Given that we don't know the root causes, it's a little presumptuous to assume that it must be 'cured.'

Still, the idea that RP could change something like this is none the less intriguing. 

[invisible]

homosexuality is said to be seen in nature, not that ive ever seen footage or a documentary about it. Even if it is "present" how common is it compared to homosexuality in civilized humans? Is there any footage of it? It certainly seems that if nothing else primitive humans have less homosexuality amongst them thant moderns.

Although I don't have much knowledge because I haven't researched it much, my first inclination is to think that homosexuality in nautre - though does exist somewhat - is EXTREMELY rare and not really present. It's exaggarated by gays and equal rights supporters as a come-back against bigots.

[TylerDurden]

From what I've read, homosexuality appears to be  nonexistent with animals as regards reptiles, lizards and the like. It's primarily  mammals and birds  who experience it. There have been some claims re 1 or 2 lizard types but this doesn't seem homosexual in nature. There are cases where female animals simulate sexual intercourse(such as cows mounting each other) but this is, apparently, just in order to get the local male to become sexually interested in the females, not homosexuality as such.

[invisible]

I just read something that said homosexuality in animals is very rarely seen but it made an interesting point that when it is it is isolated incidents that appear to be homosexual. Animals are never seen to display prolonged homosexuality as if they truely have a homosexual orientation.

[Satya]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals
No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue.[15]

[yon yonson]

I just read something that said homosexuality in animals is very rarely seen but it made an interesting point that when it is it is isolated incidents that appear to be homosexual. Animals are never seen to display prolonged homosexuality as if they truely have a homosexual orientation.

not so sure about that.
from satya's wikipedia page:

Elephants

African, as well as Asiatic males will engage in same-sex bonding and mounting. Such encounters are often associated with affectionate interactions, such as kissing, trunk intertwining, and placing trunks in each other's mouths. Males, who in elephants live apart from the general flock, often form "companionships", consisting of an older individual and one or sometimes two younger, attendant males with sexual behaviour being an important part of the social dynamic. Unlike heterosexual relations, which are always of a fleeting nature, the relationships between males may last for years. The encounters are analogous to heterosexual bouts, one male often extending his trunk along the other's back and pushing forward with his tusks to signify his intention to mount. Same-sex relations are common and frequent in both sexes, with Asiatic elephants in captivity devoting roughly 45% of sexual encounters to same-sex activity.[44]


also, i read through some of the other animals and it seems like it is not a rare occurrence in lots of species. it said male giraffes mostly have intercourse with other males (over 96% of the time). pretty interesting stuff. im not homosexual, but it makes sense to me that homosexuality could be beneficial to a community or group of a particular species by creating stronger social bonds. my two cents

[William]

  Is this Discrimination Week on rawpaleoforum? 

It's always Discrimination Week on rawpaleoforum.
I discriminate against SAD. I also discriminate against shoes, when I put that made for the right foot on the right foot, and not the left. To do otherwise would be queer.
I read that in the U.S.A. university admissions people discriminate against white males, this enforced by law.

The opinions of anthropologists and zoologists on what is or is not homosexual behaviour depend on their point of view, for instance homosexuals tend to see homosexual behaviour where there is none.

From my limited acquaintance, these are not the happiest of people, more sad than gay.

As for apparently homosexual behaviour of animals, I've seen dogs mounting someone's leg, a cat, another (male) dog, and probably almost anything that doesn't bite. Could be dominance, or play, or a sense of humour. They do laugh, y'know.

[TylerDurden]

I agree with the notion of homosexuality being useful re group bonding between members of the same sex, but I do disagree with the notion of homosexuality as a separate sexual orientation. Strictly speaking, sexual intercourse involves the male trying to impregnate the female, the result usually being a child. If a man is using a condom or a woman is taking the Pill, within a heterosexual act,  or if there are  2 gays or 2 lesbians involved in the act, then it doesn't count as sex but only as mutual masturbation.

[goodsamaritan]

I agree with the notion of homoexuality being useful re group bonding between members of the same sex, but I do disagree with the notion of homosexuality as a separate sexual orientation. Strictly speaking, sexual intercourse involves the male trying to impregnate the female, the result usually being a child. If a man is using a condom or a woman is taking the Pill, within a heterosexual act,  or if there are  2 gays or 2 lesbians involved in the act, then it doesn't count as sex but only as mutual masturbation.

Spoken like a true scientist.  People nowadays mix up the definition of sex as an act of reproduction and think of sex as a pleasure objective.

[yon yonson]

I agree with the notion of homosexuality being useful re group bonding between members of the same sex, but I do disagree with the notion of homosexuality as a separate sexual orientation. Strictly speaking, sexual intercourse involves the male trying to impregnate the female, the result usually being a child. If a man is using a condom or a woman is taking the Pill, within a heterosexual act,  or if there are  2 gays or 2 lesbians involved in the act, then it doesn't count as sex but only as mutual masturbation.

yeah, i can agree with this. i mean i have a gay friend who makes out with girls sometimes so its not like gays are ONLY homosexual. there's a spectrum of gayness i guess (haha, that sounded strange)

[goodsamaritan]

yeah, i can agree with this. i mean i have a gay friend who makes out with girls sometimes so its not like gays are ONLY homosexual. there's a spectrum of gayness i guess (haha, that sounded strange)

According to the book Sperm Wars, homosexuals are usually not exclusively homosexual throughout their lives, they have sex earlier and gain much more sexual experience which is useful in impregnating women, women just love experienced men, and part time homosexual men get a lot of practice, the author says.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/351534/Robin-Baker-Sperm-Wars

As far as degeneration, immaturity and misfiring of reproductive capacity, diet has a lot of things to do with this.  Pottenger and his cat experiments showed that after the nth generation, his cats in the fully cooked group failed to reproduce and their blood line died out.  Maybe this is what is happening to human blood lines today.

I observe that a good many people are victimized.  Like that homosexual / super effeminate young man I met at the Pro-life office, he wanted to get married someday, but he was so effeminate he wanted to be a man.  I just asked him all the forms of soy if he ate them: taho, soy milk, tofu... he ate all of it and he says soya based products is his favorite food and he was raised by his mom on soya milk, taho, tofu....  I told him he was a victim of the soy industry.  If he gave up all soy in his diet, and ate more red meat, he may have a chance of becoming a man.

So here was a "gay" who wanted to be a man.  He has a chance now.  He has a bit of information that may help him.  Now he knows why he is "gay".

[aariel]

I am 100% confident that there were homosexuals in the groups Price studied. I say this because homosexuality is a natural phenomena. As a previous poster mentioned, it's been found in virtually every species.
Homosexuality is fairly well understood in several academic disciplines.

Anthropologists and primatologists refer to homosexuality as a manifestation of "kin selection" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection).  When you have gay relatives, they help raise your offspring which give your offspring an adaptive advantage. Gay aunts and uncles collect and process food, help protect the group, provide child care, etc.--all without producing competition for your children.

Many species reproduce just fine asexually (they are all homosexuals)--although all such species are all female. I've never seen any accounts of all male asexual reproducing species--not that I look for this kind of thing.

Animal biology studies have shown that it is possible to not only control the sexual orientation of offspring, but also their sex and gender behavior. They could produce the following variations:

Hetero Male Male acting
Hetero Male Female acting
Hetero Female Female acting
Hetero Female Male acting

Homo Male Male acting
Homo Male Female Acting
Homo Female Female Acting
Homo Female Male Acting

The key is the timing, type and quantity of hormonal exposure in utero.

What's interesting to note is that all of the above variations have expression in humans--we've all seen these sterotypes:

Hetero Male Male acting--typical macho man
Hetero Male Female acting--effeminate man, but often married with children, suspected of being gay, but actually isn't
Hetero Female Female acting--typical feminine woman
Hetero Female Male acting--Masculine/gender neutral woman (Here Comes Pat), but often married with children, suspected of being gay, but actually isn't

Homo Male Male acting--Leather boy
Homo Male Female Acting--Flamboyant "queen"
Homo Female Female Acting--Love poetry lesbians
Homo Female Male Acting--"Diesel dyke"

See we all know the sterotypes, yet we often have a hard time working backwards to understand that these are all manifestations of the natural variation in the three basic sexual characteristics.

Here is a link to an interesting article about it:
http://frank.mtsu.edu/~phollowa/5sexes.html

The truly sad thing about this is the difficult position our culture puts trans-gendered people into. As you can see, when they say they feel like "a woman trapped in a man's body"--they aren't kidding, but I digress.

As for diet. Perhaps phyto-estrogens in soy and other plant based foods has an effect. There certainly have been numerous other, sexual related effects observed.
Ever watch Japanese porn? Man those guys have effeminate bodies and smallish penises. Now of course it's possible that Japanese porn producers just use regular guys where as American porn producers hunt down the more well endowed. I don't know much about Japanese porn. This last point is purely anecdotal by the way.

But milk, blood, fat and muscle tissue are all full of hormones so I'm not sure exactly how hormones in food really affect our health or reproduction.

[William]

But milk, blood, fat and muscle tissue are all full of hormones so I'm not sure exactly how hormones in food really affect our health or reproduction.

They have enormous effects, read ray peat at: http://raypeat.com/
The endocrine system is his specialty.

[Python]

I can consciously control my sexuality and while I'm not especially fond of homosexuality I can use it when it is advantageous.

The only diet that I've noticed had any effect on "curing" homosexuality when that was the dominant sexuality was intermittent fasting with a 24 fasting period. The testosterone rush made me want to have sex with many women. The subsequent realization that I didn't have the money to be considered worth the effort by most women led me to also discover that said fasting can "cure" masturbation in that after hours of jacking without a wearing down or orgasming the crazy sexual stamina made me quit out of sheer frustration.

So I guess in my case a steady job would be the only cure for homosexuality. Without it, I start resorting to "prison sex"-like situations.

[aariel]

Testosterone doesn't make men want to have sex with women.
Testosterone makes everybody want to have sex whether they are male or female, bi, straight or gay.