Anyone get to taste Elephant Meat?

[JeuneKoq]

The point is that you believe that everybody's individual moral view  is potentially valid, so that a particular subject can have a googleplex number of interpretations depending on which individual  or culture you are talking about. This means you have a wholly arbitrary stance on matters, and this is rather nihilistic per se.

Well, as I said, I believe in natural logics and laws, which socio-cultural morals and customs derive from at various degrees. So my stance on such matter isn't totally arbitrary, even though I understand that their is an explanation to every custom and belief.

eg: I personally find covering up the body -when weather is clement- to be wrong, as humans would otherwise benefit from exposing their whole body to the sun (for vit. D and other things).

Take male circumcision/male genital mutilation for example. Even without access to science, one can conclude that there must be a reason for the foreskin to exist otherwise Nature would not have enabled male children to be born with them in the first place, so that removing the foreskin is most definitely unnatural. With scientific knowledge that the foreskin contains many nerve receptors which enable sexual gratification to more easily occur, male genital mutilation can only be reasonably viewed as being unethical and unnatural. Any other stance is not logical.

I too believe that male or female genital mutilation is unhealthy, thus somewhat unnatural. But their is an explanation for such practice, that originates from subjective interpretation of what is moral or immoral, right or wrong, and perpetuation of such belief. And since it's impossible to define what is unnatural, as everything is inherently natural, their might be an objective logic to such act, which derives as I said from the clash of the abstract mind's altered reality and the response of the objective unconscious mind.
Its like the example on BDSM :

"The brain, especially human's, has the tendency to memorize and create new survival strategies by association (sorry, it's really hard for me to explain it clearly) drawn from past experiences.
In the case of masochist, one could reason that these individuals where beaten up by their parents during childhood, and so their brain could've possibly made the association "being physically punished/ hit by a loved one (parent)= being loved/cared for= good".
And so, these people will later want to recreate, reenact this feeling of love and caring by demanding to be hit by a partner."

Take the original example:- the fact that these Africans(Zimbabweans?) were starving is not the fault of the elephant, but the fault of the Africans. There is a saying:- "every country has the government it deserves". In other words, if they wanted to improve their situation, they would overthrow Mugabe at any cost, allow  the white farmers to return and restore a democratic government, or they could have far fewer children so as to  simply cope better with famine etc. Since they do not choose to do so, they are at fault by implication. Wiping out elephants is not a permanent solution to their problems.I know, I know, the elephant was technically  already dead so the Africans had every right to eat it, I am just arguing on a philosophical point.

"every country has the government it deserves" I don't agree with this saying. A lot of times, especially in old colonial and/or developing countries, the new government is put in place by the old colonial forces, or other powerful groups.

Also the people sometimes don't have the necessary insight and knowledge to cope with the socio-political changes, or new gained freedom, you cannot expect from them to produce a fully functioning government right away. If they're not taught how by other successful nations, they'll just have to go through the old trial-and-error, and so they'll make mistakes.

I don't think these people are entirely at fault here.


I think you're making a mistake of judgment on Saber's stance, again, but he'll probably tell you himself.

[goodsamaritan]

Tyler, you might want to split this topic and name it how you see it.  Seems the elephant meat discussion was only in the first few replies.

[TylerDurden]

I too believe that male or female genital mutilation is unhealthy, thus somewhat unnatural. But their is an explanation for such practice, that originates from subjective interpretation of what is moral or immoral, right or wrong, and perpetuation of such belief. And since it's impossible to define what is unnatural, as everything is inherently natural, their might be an objective logic to such act, which derives as I said from the clash of the abstract mind's altered reality and the response of the objective unconscious mind.
Its like the example on BDSM :

"The brain, especially human's, has the tendency to memorize and create new survival strategies by association (sorry, it's really hard for me to explain it clearly) drawn from past experiences.
In the case of masochist, one could reason that these individuals where beaten up by their parents during childhood, and so their brain could've possibly made the association "being physically punished/ hit by a loved one (parent)= being loved/cared for= good".
And so, these people will later want to recreate, reenact this feeling of love and caring by demanding to be hit by a partner."

You are basically stating that everyone has an inner truth that they follow which is valid for themselves. You are quite wrong in claiming that it is impossible to define what is natural. I just did, by pointing out that baby boys are all born with a foreskin so that a foreskin must therefore have a useful, NATURAL purpose so that its removal is unnatural.
The masochist example is a bit of an own goal, to put it mildly. You are stating that being hurt is fine for the relevant person because past physical abuse on that person, as a child, moulded his personality so that he/she now finds pain pleasurable. I, and many others, would heavily disagree with this moral relativism.

Using a similiar sort of example, by your reasoning, a person who murders prostitutes for kicks because he was sexually abused as a child, is only doing what is natural, according to him. This reminds me of a fictional serial killer in an SF story I recently read:- the court asks him, after his murders of several little girls, as to whether he knows the difference between right and wrong. He duly answers that he is aware and understands  that others view his past actions as being wrong but that he did not personally feel this to be the case from his POV.

"every country has the government it deserves" I don't agree with this saying. A lot of times, especially in old colonial and/or developing countries, the new government is put in place by the old colonial forces, or other powerful groups.

Also the people sometimes don't have the necessary insight and knowledge to cope with the socio-political changes, or new gained freedom, you cannot expect from them to produce a fully functioning government right away. If they're not taught how by other successful nations, they'll just have to go through the old trial-and-error, and so they'll make mistakes.

I don't think these people are entirely at fault here.

My half-brother made this sort of argument once. The idea was that because the old colonial powers had redrawn the borders artificially across natural tribal boundaries, many tribes found themselves duly split in two or three parts by various borders, thus increasing the possibility of tribal conflict. While one can make excuses for newly-freed peoples to foul things up and make mistakes in the first few decades, if they keep on making endless mistakes after c.20+ years or more(ie 1 generation+), then one cannot blame the old colonial powers any more. Ultimately, corrupt governments such as those in Russia, the UK, Egypt, Israel, Iran, Venezuela, the US  etc. etc.could not be sustained unless their people were willing to accept the limitations and restrictions  that their governments force upon them. If they did not like it, they should have gotten rid of their governments and put in something better. Otherwise these populations  are complicit and therefore part of the problem.

[JeuneKoq]

You are basically stating that everyone has an inner truth that they follow which is valid for themselves. You are quite wrong in claiming that it is impossible to define what is natural. I just did, by pointing out that baby boys are all born with a foreskin so that a foreskin must therefore have a useful, NATURAL purpose so that its removal is unnatural.
The masochist example is a bit of an own goal, to put it mildly. You are stating that being hurt is fine for the relevant person because past physical abuse on that person, as a child, molded his personality so that he/she now finds pain pleasurable. I, and many others, would heavily disagree with this moral relativism.

Using a similar sort of example, by your reasoning, a person who murders prostitutes for kicks because he was sexually abused as a child, is only doing what is natural, according to him. This reminds me of a fictional serial killer in an SF story I recently read:- the court asks him, after his murders of several little girls, as to whether he knows the difference between right and wrong. He duly answers that he is aware and understands  that others view his past actions as being wrong but that he did not personally feel this to be the case from his POV.

Hey, I only said it could be explained this way, not that it was justified. A psychological work that would bring these unconscious mechanism to the conscious mind of the person might help him/her deal with it and abandon these practice. Such psychological treatment takes time, and there seems to be much more immediate and efficient ways to bring those negative behavior to consciousness and disintegrate them. Stanislav Gorf's Holotropic Breathwork seems to be one of them. It consists basically of making the patient hyperventilate, which will after a time bring the person into a "self-exploration" altered state of mind, and bring out un-restored past trauma.

http://holotropicbreathworkla.com/how-to-do-holotropic-breathwork


Their are many definition to the word "natural". You are right in stating that male circumscription is unnatural, in the sense that it is a man-made, man-thought practice. Or that it derives from culture as opposed to nature.

But if man is in essence a natural being, isn't everything that he thinks or does natural too? Depends on what definition you give to the word "natural". But for the sake of understanding lets define natural as something that is not something human created, thought, conceptualized.

Or as wikipedia puts it: "Although humans are part of nature, human activity is often understood as a separate category from other natural phenomena."

[JeuneKoq]

  Ultimately, corrupt governments such as those in Russia, the UK, Egypt, Israel, Iran, Venezuela, the US  etc. etc.could not be sustained unless their people were willing to accept the limitations and restrictions  that their governments force upon them. If they did not like it, they should have gotten rid of their governments and put in something better. Otherwise these populations  are complicit and therefore part of the problem.

I think self-preservation somehow inhibits people from putting their lives at risk in trying to overthrow a government. They'd rather be restricted than die, which is only logical.

Do you know why concentration camp prisoners, who vastly outnumbered the nazi guards, never attempted to unite and rebel against them?

Their is this biological phenomenon called "PAT hormonal" in French (strangely, I couldn't find the English translation), which describe a state in which an individual's hormonal levels are all lowered, especially testosterone, so as to make him a lot less prone to fighting, more obedient and passive, thus avoiding being killed in a fight with a stronger opponent.

Wolf pack function this way, meaning that every male, except the alpha, enter a "PAT hormonal" which inhibits constant fighting with one another, thus protecting the livability of the pack. Once the Alpha is dead, another wolf (the Beta) exits its PAT hormonal to replace him.

Prisoners in concentration camp where naturally under the influence of a PAT hormonal that kept them obedient, and prevented them from putting their life in danger by rebelling against the guards.

You can't blame people for something they have no control on.
However realizing this might've permitted them from exiting this hormonal state. We'll never know.

  While one can make excuses for newly-freed peoples to foul things up and make mistakes in the first few decades, if they keep on making endless mistakes after c.20+ years or more(ie 1 generation+), then one cannot blame the old colonial powers any more.

Well quite frankly you're in no place to judge how much time it should take for a population to adapt to a new political and life environment. Maybe it takes a century, maybe there are other factors that you haven't taken into account that can momentarily stop or slow down the process...
Or maybe you're right, they're just dumb and they deserve to be severely oppressed by their government.

[sabertooth]

Regarding elephant meat, it looks absolutely delicious, and 100% paleo

In response to, TD.... although I admit from time to time I have nihilistic sentimentalities, I prefer to think of myself as a born again radical humanist. Valuing humanity, and the human potential, over all other creation, I have no issue with human beings doing whatever it takes to survive, so long as you stay away from me and mine. "If you want to make an omelet you must be willing to break a few eggs" The devouring of the yolks and the vital essence of other spices will not be in vain so long as it fuels the growing and evolving minds of my fellow humans. This is a value judgment based on subjective human experience . I personally have cut the throats and drank the blood of dozens of animals, and have four children who are also eating machines..... so who am I to say that hungry people in far away lands should be free to breed and eat as they chose. That being said I will agree that there are responsible ways of managing earth by teaching the poor how to live off the land and eat plants and animals which are available,  its just that I am not going to be personally bothered if a particular type of animal goes extinct.( besides sheep, which I am really fond of). But if all the sheep were killed off, I would begin to look for the next best thing to prey on.

If there are no elephants, let them eat wilder beast, if there are no beast let them eat bugs, if there are no bugs let them eat each other. As horrid as it sounds, it is the reality of life on earth.

The singularity I speak of is much different than the trans humanist fantasy being projected in science fiction, where humans are artificially engineered, it much more pantheistic,  I envision a more organically arising situation in which the masses of humanity will reach a point where after devouring the earths resources they will become absolute desperate, in which the conditions may arise that will move the spirit of life to reawaking the instinctive drive to survive, in a being who has developed the power of focused consciousness to transform the biological self at will, sparking the next quantum leap in biological evolution, which is the evolution of higher consciousness and extra sensory awareness focused and intune with the genetic will to surthrive. It was only after lifetimes of harsh living on the brink of annihilation that our ancestors were forced to develop the last great leap of quantum evolution in which our brain sizes doubled in 2 million years, during this time higher consciousness arose and the mind developed the abilities to shape and alter reality with thought. This process of the conscious evolution has become latent due to the lack of necessity in modern life, but if the conditions where to arise when the survival of billions of now informational interconnected human beings was truly threatened, it could very well reactivate on a global scale. This is the singularity of a neo humanity of which I speak, where the world of human thought ,unites under the necessity of mutual survival, and the will to survive drives a collective humanity to transcend all earthly limitations and eventually toward the stars and into the great beyond. 

 What form this new world of humanity will exactly take,  is up for speculation and will depend greatly upon the immeasurable conditions leading up to the singularity, but I hold on to an underlying faith that life will find its way, if we would just let it be. I insist this view is not nihilistic!.... it is the modern day equivalent of the Tao, it is an acceptance of reality as it is and of humanity for what it is and what it is capable of becoming, it is the understanding of the wayseers who in the midst of a dying world stand upright and proclaim " the beginning is near"

If the Malthusian Hollow Men are successful in convincing human kind to prematurely cull their own numbers, in order to save the earth( or some other lofty ideal) then our collective soul will be gelded, our power will be diminished and the point of crises that would place humanity on the brink of annihilation, which has always been the catalyst for evolutionary leaps forward will never arise and the point of singularity will not be attained. In such a world the human flame will slowly die out and the world will end not in a bang, but with a whimper.

[TylerDurden]

If they accept their fate, they have only themselves to blame. Their hormonal state is irrelevant, as, through sheer will, they could have risen against their oppressors. I suppose it is all about how people value self-preservation compared to other factors. Some will go berserk if even tiny freedoms of theirs are revoked, others will take it up the arse  and allow torture and every  other monstrosity just in order  to be allowed  to stay alive.

There is a wonderful quote by Oswald Spengler who talks about this sort of thing:-

"We are born into this time and must bravely follow the path to the destined end. There is no other way. Our duty is to hold on to the lost position, without hope, without rescue, like that Roman soldier whose bones were found in front of a door in Pompeii, who, during the eruption of Vesuvius, died at his post because they forgot to relieve him. That is greatness. That is what it means to be a thoroughbred. The honorable end is the one thing that can not be taken from a man.”
? Oswald Spengler, Man and Technics: A Contribution to a Philosophy of Life"

For example, I quite honestly despise and loathe the Arabs(a bunch of  worthless desert bandits throughout history) who wiped out the Byzantines in the Near East and destroyed the Sassanid Persians, as those 2  latter empires were far superior culturally and scientifically etc.,  to the Arabs. On the other hand, the Arabs had no fear of death and were willing to fight until the end to support their beliefs(which were odious,but that is by the by), and that is something to admire, just like ISIS nowadays(and I hate Isis otherwise).

[TylerDurden]

SB, you are completely missing the points I made. For example, most scientists do not even remotely believe there is a chance for humans to attain a singularity where they eventually reach the stars. You see, for one thing, even if (libertarian) eugenics and genetic engineering were practised en-masse on current human populations, according to theory, only c.10% more could be achieved in our human potential. There are all sorts of restrictions:- for example, an adult brain bigger than 3,500 cc is impossible, requiring a vastly bigger female birth-canal etc. There are a few crackpots like Kurzweil who believe in mind-uploading, in order to get around this obvious limitation,  but this is highly unlikely as how can one transfer consciousness(ie the soul) to mere electronics? To do that, one would have to know how  to manipulate  souls etc.

I doubt we would ever end up in a stage where we have to go into survival mode  after having wiped out all other unnecessary species. More than likely, we will end up with a sanitised, near-desolate world where the only lifeforms are humans and microbes with everything else being just grown in hydroponic farms for human consumption, with humans being unable to travel to other star systems or ascend to higher states. Hopefully, by then we will have attained immortality which will inevitably lead to far lower birth-rates and perhaps therefore the possibility of other lifeforms appearing(not that that matters, of course, since we have less than a billion years before all life on earth is wiped out by Mother Nature).

All we can hope for is to create AIs which then can go interstellar. AIso those AIs, unlike humans, do not have to worry about having the right gravity, air-pressure, oxygen, lack of cosmic radiation etc. when getting into space. Even now, many scientists are screaming bloody murder because so much money is wasted on human spaceflight when much smaller amounts are needed to get  robot spacecraft started.

[sabertooth]

I have to say, you paint a very bleak picture of the future.... especially for someone who accuses others of being nihilistic. Although I will not disagree that failure to reach higher states of evolved humanity may indeed be our fate, I must insist that to reach for the stars is not entirely an exercise in futility. Even if there is only the slightest chance that we could be the one species that ultimately succeeds in the game of survival and outlive our mother planet to eventually spawn our human DNA throughout the cosmos...... there is still a chance.

 Let us not be satisfied vicariously living through the accomplishments of soulless AI's in our cocoons of technology.  Technical advances have made us decoupled from the natural world, and eternally entombing our minds into some AI matrix and sending out probes into interstellar space with cargos of digitized human souls, is nothing I wish to be a part of.

Never say never, and anything is possible. The present reality of the human condition is proof of this. The future is unwritten and life will flex and bend depending upon what the present situation requires. If our artificially created environmental conditioning creates a world where survival depends upon the submitting of  human individuality to a hive mind, so that we become soulless drones and workers enslaved to a autocratic technocracy, then that may be our fate. But viewing the individual as an imagine cell in the great caterpillar, we can see that there are many groups of Cells in the body of humanity comprised of individual human minds, that are capable preparing for a different kind of metamorphosis. When the conditions arise survival may depend upon our ability to imagine our way through whatever limitations we have been conditioned to once believe where absolute.

 This wait and let the spontaneity of mother nature work itself out, while we use our collective minds to guide our way, while we ride the wave of the present into the future, approach... is not what the technocratic futurist are offering us as a viable solution, but for me it seems like letting go of attachment to out come and learning to tune in with the present reality is the most sane and natural approach to take as we begin to chart a course into the unmapped future. Let us not waste our lives subservient to the mechanical imp Gods and their false promises of digital immortality in some cyber heaven.

 Let us take time to breath the beautified air and reconnect with what is left of the natural world, only if we are in love with life to the point where it is so precious that we are willing to do anything to preserve it, will we have the motivation to take the next great leap forward. Great transformation wont happen over night, it took the birds millions of years to develop the ability of free flight, and the ego of man being only a temporal manifestation, is often paralyzed by the fear that all is for not if it cant be accomplished in a single lifetime.... this great mad dash to cram eons of progress into shorter and shorter time spans will no longer allow nature to take its course and find its balance as it has done in the past. This can be disturbing to anyone as we watch the species of our world be consumed to extinction one by one, in order to feed this breakneck race of human kind and its collective need to engineer reality to fit the egos every whim.  Regardless of what course it takes, its going to be a wild ride, and if the human race is going to survive the next stage long enough to reap the whirlwind of manna which is the spirit of life, then we must hold on for dear life and use ever gram of will, strength and wisdom in our being to prepare us mind, body, and spirit for whatever will be.