Aajonus - gallbladder/pancreas pain - eating raw glands to heal glands

[marcuspaleo]

Ive had chronic fatigue for 18 years. I think most of my problems relate to digestion, but i could be wrong, as i have so many painful and debilitating symptoms. I have a gnawing pain in my midsection that extends to my back that gets worse after eating, and based on the location, I think its probably my gallbladder, pancreas or liver. It could also be my spleen, kidneys or adrenals. I also have food allergies and feel nauseous after eating. Ive had nearly every medical test performed and nothing major has shown up. Im not overweight, I eat well (whats well!?!) and I take very good care of myself (sleep, exercise when able, environment etc). Im 34 years old.

Over the last 18 years Ive tried nearly everything to heal myself, and about 2.5 years ago I tried the paleo diet. I ate no grains, just cooked meat, fruit, nuts and some potatoes. I stuck with it for nearly 6 months and I felt absolutely terrible and have ever since. It made me so sick. I definitely have a problem eating large amounts of meat. A few months ago I tried eating raw meat and felt fine. It digested easily and was like i hadn't eaten at all. I was pretty stressed as i ate it as i was afraid i would get sick, but i wasn't, and felt good.

I just bought the book "we want to live" by Aajonis Vunderplanitz to learn more about eating raw meat but also eating specific glands. It was a great read but it didn't have anything in there about eating the raw glands of animals to heal your own corresponding glands. Id heard him talk about this in an interview and he said it was in his book, but clearly not this one.

My question is: can someone recommend a diet for my condition if it is a pancreas or gallbladder problem? Can someone tell me where i can find Aajonis's work (or other reputable sources) that discuss on eating glands to heal corresponding glands.

[cherimoya_kid]

It's the gallbladder or liver. There are several liver and gallbladder cleanses out there, and some good herbs. I would try a regular raw paleo diet for a couple of months, and then do some herbs and cleanses if that doesn't work.

Apples are generally very good for this issue, as is milk thistle.

[TylerDurden]

I had chronic fatigue for many years(13+) and I  fully recovered once I went rawpalaeo. Some points:- chronic fatigue often creates or exacerbates certain allergies so, like me in the past, you may have an allergy towards raw dairy - in which case, Aajonus' raw-dairy-heavy Primal Diet is not ideal for you. I would also advise against consuming raw veggie-juice, though the occasional freshly squeezed fruit juice is fine. When I had CFS, I would experience appallingly painful stomach-aches a few minutes after eating any cooked animal food, so I was so grateful to find that raw meats did not have the same effect on me.

"High"-meat, ie raw, aged meat is a definite must for someone who has chronic fatigue syndrome:-

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/display-your-culinary-creations/high-meat-recipe-preparation-for-more-advanced-rafers/

However, only try "high-meat" once you have gotten fully used to eating fresh, raw meats. Eating a wide variety of raw organs does seem to speed up health-recovery so it is a good idea. But make sure the meat is of high quality:- ie either raw 100% grassfed or  raw wild game/raw wildcaught seafood.

Do not spend too much money on food. Always better to have small amounts of the best quality than lots of lower-grade food. One last thing:- health-recovery from serious conditions like CFS can take a long time. In my own case, I got rid of c.80% of my former health-problems within 4 months, but it took another 2 or 3 years to  fully recover.

[marcuspaleo]

It's the gallbladder or liver. There are several liver and gallbladder cleanses out there, and some good herbs. I would try a regular raw paleo diet for a couple of months, and then do some herbs and cleanses if that doesn't work.

Apples are generally very good for this issue, as is milk thistle.

Hi, thanks for the advice.

You dont think its the pancreas (pancreatitis)? Also, the pain is constant - sometimes really bad, sometimes not as bad, but more than often made far worse by eating. Can a gallbladder or liver constantly ache like that? I

Ive tried nearly every supplement mans ever made including herbs such as milk thistle. It didnt help. B6, VB12, Vit C and magnesium, selenium and a few others did, but i think they just helped with deficiencies as a result of poor digestion as opposed to addressing the core issue. Ive tried lots of juicing and fasting. This definitely helps, just as eating hurts, but it never solves the problem, just halts it for awhile.

Can you please tell me the theory behind eating a standard raw paleo as opposed to focusing on eating raw gallblader or liver (or pancreas) when one of those is likely  the problem?

Thanks

[marcuspaleo]

I had chronic fatigue for many years(13+) and I  fully recovered once I went rawpalaeo. Some points:- chronic fatigue often creates or exacerbates certain allergies so, like me in the past, you may have an allergy towards raw dairy - in which case, Aajonus' raw-dairy-heavy Primal Diet is not ideal for you. I would also advise against consuming raw veggie-juice, though the occasional freshly squeezed fruit juice is fine. When I had CFS, I would experience appallingly painful stomach-aches a few minutes after eating any cooked animal food, so I was so grateful to find that raw meats did not have the same effect on me.

"High"-meat, ie raw, aged meat is a definite must for someone who has chronic fatigue syndrome:-

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/display-your-culinary-creations/high-meat-recipe-preparation-for-more-advanced-rafers/

However, only try "high-meat" once you have gotten fully used to eating fresh, raw meats. Eating a wide variety of raw organs does seem to speed up health-recovery so it is a good idea. But make sure the meat is of high quality:- ie either raw 100% grassfed or  raw wild game/raw wildcaught seafood.

Do not spend too much money on food. Always better to have small amounts of the best quality than lots of lower-grade food. One last thing:- health-recovery from serious conditions like CFS can take a long time. In my own case, I got rid of c.80% of my former health-problems within 4 months, but it took another 2 or 3 years to  fully recover.

Hi,

Thanks. CFS can be caused my any number of things. It could be undiagnosed hypothyroidism, a parasite, a food allergy, poor pancreatic function etc. A sick or injured body thats smart will slow down, allocate energy carefully, and conserve energy making you tired to protect itself from further damage. Do you know what was the underlying cause of your cfs? Problems often cascade as times goes on, but i think my primary cause if digestive related as mentioned.

[cherimoya_kid]

Hi, thanks for the advice.

You dont think its the pancreas (pancreatitis)? Also, the pain is constant - sometimes really bad, sometimes not as bad, but more than often made far worse by eating. Can a gallbladder or liver constantly ache like that? I

Ive tried nearly every supplement mans ever made including herbs such as milk thistle. It didnt help. B6, VB12, Vit C and magnesium, selenium and a few others did, but i think they just helped with deficiencies as a result of poor digestion as opposed to addressing the core issue. Ive tried lots of juicing and fasting. This definitely helps, just as eating hurts, but it never solves the problem, just halts it for awhile.

Can you please tell me the theory behind eating a standard raw paleo as opposed to focusing on eating raw gallblader or liver (or pancreas) when one of those is likely  the problem?

Thanks

There are 2 reasons I suggest trying raw paleo for a couple of months first:

1. Since all the herbs and supplements didn't help, it sounds like it's probably a reaction to something in your diet, instead of a deficiency

2. Eating raw paleo is a good way to fix a lot of problems at the same time. There are other problems you probably forgot to mention that will also get better.

I'm not against you trying to eat liver first, if that's what you feel you want to do. A week or so of eating raw or lightly-cooked GRASSFED, GRASS-FINISHED  liver (probably 2-4 ounces daily) will be a good experiment, if you don't change anything else about your diet.

So sure, try it. A week or so will tell you a lot.

[TylerDurden]

Hi,

Thanks. CFS can be caused my any number of things. It could be undiagnosed hypothyroidism, a parasite, a food allergy, poor pancreatic function etc. A sick or injured body thats smart will slow down, allocate energy carefully, and conserve energy making you tired to protect itself from further damage. Do you know what was the underlying cause of your cfs? Problems often cascade as times goes on, but i think my primary cause if digestive related as mentioned.

Not sure. I think I had an awful lifesaving operation when I was 2 to get rid of some pills from my stomach. After that, I got anxiety. Then I developed a nasty reaction to dairy without realising that was the cause. Then things just got  slowly worse and worse until I was 17 by which time I had developed most of the health problems I had until aged 29.

[marcuspaleo]

There are 2 reasons I suggest trying raw paleo for a couple of months first:

1. Since all the herbs and supplements didn't help, it sounds like it's probably a reaction to something in your diet, instead of a deficiency

2. Eating raw paleo is a good way to fix a lot of problems at the same time. There are other problems you probably forgot to mention that will also get better.

I'm not against you trying to eat liver first, if that's what you feel you want to do. A week or so of eating raw or lightly-cooked GRASSFED, GRASS-FINISHED  liver (probably 2-4 ounces daily) will be a good experiment, if you don't change anything else about your diet.

So sure, try it. A week or so will tell you a lot.

Thanks again!

I was so sick for a long time after my cooked paleo experiment that i didnt want to eat any meat as it caused pain and made me sick. The extra cooked meat definitely caused damage. My ability to digest foods was reduced and my allergies increased. It was like it broke something inside. Im starting to eat meat again with less pain, but i prefer white meat as its so much lighter. Do u see any issues with focusing on white meat like chicken as opposed to beef/lamb etc.? I still struggle a bit with raw red meat because im still so sick.

I want to try this raw paleo diet for 2 weeks but with an emphasis on healing my liver/gallbladder/pancreas.

My shopping list is:

Raw butter
Raw cream
raw milk
--------
Raw eggs
whole raw chicken
-----
fruit
fruit juice (i love fruit!)
unheated honey
-----
raw salads (lettuce, cumcumber, avo etc)
------
raw lambs liver
raw X gallbladder (x =still have to find)
raw deer pancreas
----------
sourdough bread
potatoes (boiled)

Any tips?

[marcuspaleo]

Not sure. I think I had an awful lifesaving operation when I was 2 to get rid of some pills from my stomach. After that, I got anxiety. Then I developed a nasty reaction to dairy without realising that was the cause. Then things just got  slowly worse and worse until I was 17 by which time I had developed most of the health problems I had until aged 29.

Sorry to hear that. How bad did it get? How do u feel now?

[TylerDurden]

Sorry to hear that. How bad did it get? How do u feel now?

By the age of 29, I had health problems affecting my entire body, and felt near death. I had skin inflammation problems, broken toe-nails, constant fatigue(I would sleep 8 to 10 hours and wake up and feel as though I had only slept half an hour), I had slowed thinking, acute anxiety, mind-fog , the awful stomach-aches when I ate cooked animal foods(which was why I went raw vegan and then Fruitarian prior to going rawpaleo), nasty pains in my joints, a heart that skipped a beat every now and then, constant dizziness when I tried to stand up, loosened teeth that were about to fall out  until I went rawpalaeo, constant constipation,  inability to do more than 10 minutes of exercise/weightlifting  at the gym  without collapsing exhausted etc.etc.

These days I feel fine. I am now able to eat some cooked foods here and there without the nasty side-effects I had before, as my gut has long ago healed. I should really do 100% rawpalaeo but social occasions/inadequate food-sources   etc. sometimes make that difficult. My current issue is that I want to be more "palaeo" from an exercise point-of-view and am going to the local gym to remedy that. I am also planning on  eating smaller amounts of raw foods as I do not need to eat as much, really,  and likely need to eat more "high-meat" as it is a very effective probiotic and healthy-gut-maintainer.

[TylerDurden]

If your 2-week experiment does not work, cut out the raw dairy to see if that improves. Also cut out the sourdough and the potatoes and replace the raw chicken with some higher quality raw animal food. Chickens are nearly always raised on very unhealthy grain-filled diets, no matter how "organic" they may be. Unless you raise your own chickens so as to ensure that they have access to their real natural diet(ie worms and insects), they are not worth it. The raw salads are fine, but not all that useful re healing. And make sure the raw animal foods are either 100% grassfed or wild-sourced.

My previous ideas were to replace raw chicken with raw wild mallard duck. At first I found it  difficult to get hold of raw 100% grassfed meat, so I instead bought lots of raw wildcaught seafood.

[marcuspaleo]

By the age of 29, I had health problems affecting my entire body, and felt near death. I had skin inflammation problems, broken toe-nails, constant fatigue(I would sleep 8 to 10 hours and wake up and feel as though I had only slept half an hour), I had slowed thinking, acute anxiety, mind-fog , the awful stomach-aches when I ate cooked animal foods(which was why I went raw vegan and then Fruitarian prior to going rawpaleo), nasty pains in my joints, a heart that skipped a beat every now and then, constant dizziness when I tried to stand up, loosened teeth that were about to fall out  until I went rawpalaeo, constant constipation,  inability to do more than 10 minutes of exercise/weightlifting  at the gym  without collapsing exhausted etc.etc.

These days I feel fine. I am now able to eat some cooked foods here and there without the nasty side-effects I had before, as my gut has long ago healed. I should really do 100% rawpalaeo but social occasions/inadequate food-sources   etc. sometimes make that difficult. My current issue is that I want to be more "palaeo" from an exercise point-of-view and am going to the local gym to remedy that. I am also planning on  eating smaller amounts of raw foods as I do not need to eat as much, really,  and likely need to eat more "high-meat" as it is a very effective probiotic and healthy-gut-maintainer.

Thats sucks. Pretty similar to my story.  Glad you are doing well now.

When u started the raw paleo did you notice an improvement immediately? Obviously you realized you could finally digest meat without pain/nausea, but when did it pick you health up a notch? days? weeks?  Would you say you are completely recovered?

What does your diet look like now?

[marcuspaleo]

If your 2-week experiment does not work, cut out the raw dairy to see if that improves. Also cut out the sourdough and the potatoes and replace the raw chicken with some higher quality raw animal food. Chickens are nearly always raised on very unhealthy grain-filled diets, no matter how "organic" they may be. Unless you raise your own chickens so as to ensure that they have access to their real natural diet(ie worms and insects), they are not worth it. The raw salads are fine, but not all that useful re healing. And make sure the raw animal foods are either 100% grassfed or wild-sourced.

My previous ideas were to replace raw chicken with raw wild mallard duck. At first I found it  difficult to get hold of raw 100% grassfed meat, so I instead bought lots of raw wildcaught seafood.

Thanks man. I live in Australia and have found a couple of chicken farms that look good. Im going to find out how they process them but they seem to raise them well.

Also, despite choosing family farm naturally raised organic meats, Im still a little concerned athat the meat has become contaminated during the slaughter/processing. What I normally do is eat about 30 grams and waited 48 hours. If I dont get sick, I eat that piece of meat. Am I just being paranoid?

This may sound strange but I swear its true: when I tried the cooked paleo diet for 6 months I ate a lot of beef. By the end of the 6 months, I was in the worst state of health I had ever been, and as a result struggled eating most things, but I developed an allergy to not only beef, but dairy. Its improved a lot, but im still a bit queezy with beef/dairy. For some reason cheese is ok, but milk and yogurt isnt. Raw milk is ok, but commercial milk makes me throw up. I think I overloaded and developed some sort of antibodies to it because i wasn't digesting it properly. Weird.

[TylerDurden]

Completely recovered? Well, in all honesty, anything that could be healed was healed. I suspect, however, that decades of being so ill and under such  monumental stress may have caused some long-term but minor brain-damage. Not serious in the sense of mental impairment, but let's just say that if I had never been ill in those ways, I would probably have  developed a slightly better, sharper  memory, marginally better reaction-speed or whatever. That's just a theory, though,  maybe I am at 100%.

Like I said, the only immediate improvement was the sudden, total lack of  stomach- pain after eating raw animal foods. Then I started experiencing the same symptoms again once I took up raw dairy .  I felt a very tiny amount of health-improvement every day in the first 4 months after cutting out all raw dairy from my diet,  but that might have been just my imagination. I  only noticed a major disappearance of my symptoms after that 4 month period. After that 4 month period, my health-improvement was rather gradual and unnoticeable really, except after the occasional  detoxes where I felt noticeable boosts to my health.

I will have to go into details about my rawpalaeodiet later today. I have to go to a concert soon.

[TylerDurden]

Also, despite choosing family farm naturally raised organic meats, Im still a little concerned athat the meat has become contaminated during the slaughter/processing. What I normally do is eat about 30 grams and waited 48 hours. If I dont get sick, I eat that piece of meat. Am I just being paranoid?

  Pretty much. When I first investigated RVAF diets I would force myself to eat raw, grainfed meats of the lowest quality which tasted truly foul. I still did not get food-poisoning and the like, despite that. Basically, food-poisoning is more of an issue if one eats highly processed/highly heated  food(such as canned foods) and is either a baby or an old person about to die anyway.

This may sound strange but I swear its true: when I tried the cooked paleo diet for 6 months I ate a lot of beef. By the end of the 6 months, I was in the worst state of health I had ever been, and as a result struggled eating most things, but I developed an allergy to not only beef, but dairy. Its improved a lot, but im still a bit queezy with beef/dairy. For some reason cheese is ok, but milk and yogurt isnt. Raw milk is ok, but commercial milk makes me throw up. I think I overloaded and developed some sort of antibodies to it because i wasn't digesting it properly. Weird.

I strongly advise you to avoid all raw dairy if you can't handle even one type of raw dairy. It's a bad sign. You see it is possible for someone to be allergenic to a particular food but not experience any overt symptoms- however, if you continue to consume that very  food you will likely experience a slowdown or a stop to your health-recovery, since the body has to then divert its resources away from healing to deal with this problematic food.

After many years of avoiding raw dairy, I have recently become able to absorb it without any overt problems. It used to be that eating raw cheese always gave me constipation while consuming raw milk caused immediate massive urination, and the like, but this does not seem to matter any more. Since CFS seems to exacerbate allergies, it may be that now my body  has been healthy for years, it can now easily deal with raw dairy. However, we are talking about years being needed for adaptation.

[TylerDurden]

My  diet:-

I now live in a landlocked country where raw wildcaught  seafood is always prefrozen and so expensive one buys it at at least 5 euros per 100g thereof, and often much more. So, except for the summer holidays in Italy, I rarely buy raw seafood. In Italy, I would buy raw shellfish mostly, plus raw squid and octopi and some raw fish of the cheapest variety. Unfortunately, the local fish-market in Italy is run by the Mafia, and they love hiking the cost of the food buy as much as 30 euros a kilo as soon as the summer tourist season starts in May.

I buy raw wild game from a wild meat wholesalers in the city's outskirts. I get raw wild boar and raw wild moufflon mostly. But I cannot easily get raw organs from that source. I get raw pigs' tongues from a local supermarket, plus raw pigs' liver/kidneys/brains/hearts. Animals in Austria are usually raised in mountain pastures and are not  mostly intensively-farmed in the way UK and US animals usually are.

 I used to practise Intermittent Fasting a lot as I had read good data about it promoting longevity, and I need to do more thereof.

I buy standard raw fruits like oranges, bananas, blueberries, strawberries and nuts like brazil nuts. I do not care about organic versions for plant foods. Organic as a label is largely meaningless, as too many agricombines have misused the term to sell very low-quality foods.  Terms like "grassfed" are far more worth searching for.

And, recently, I have been buying some raw cow's/goat's/sheep's milk from a local organic supermarket, as I cannot find it anywhere else.

[dariorpl]

Also cut out the sourdough and the potatoes and replace the raw chicken with some higher quality raw animal food. Chickens are nearly always raised on very unhealthy grain-filled diets, no matter how "organic" they may be. Unless you raise your own chickens so as to ensure that they have access to their real natural diet(ie worms and insects), they are not worth it.

Aajonus said that a chicken's natural diet includes raw grains such as corn. I think part of the problem with grain fed animals is that they are fed to a lot of animals that can't eat them raw. For example cows and pigs need to have most grains cooked, and grain fed cows are often fed cooked GMO soy and stuff. (I think of soy as a legume more than a grain, but yeah).

I think conventional raised pigs in most of the world are the worst, as they are fed food waste from food processing plants. Things like cookies, potato chips, candy, dairy, sausage, whatever it is that for whatever reason would otherwise get thrown to the garbage, is instead fed to pigs. Or at least that's what I hear.

[TylerDurden]

Aajonus said that a chicken's natural diet includes raw grains such as corn. I think part of the problem with grain fed animals is that they are fed to a lot of animals that can't eat them raw. For example cows and pigs need to have most grains cooked, and grain fed cows are often fed cooked GMO soy and stuff. (I think of soy as a legume more than a grain, but yeah).

Wild jungle fowl, from which chickens come from, have an extremely varied diet not the 100% grains-filled diet of most modern chicken.

[dariorpl]

Oh sure, I agree with that.

However, chickens are domesticated animals and have been selectively bred for thousands of generations to grow well on raw grains plus whatever insects and worms could be found in the farm (which likely would've been a lot more in the past than today, but still far less than what jungle fowl would get). Although today it would be possible to use worm composting and raising insects to increase the amount of those that your chickens would get to far more than they would've gotten in the past.

I don't think we need to match ratios perfectly to the ones that would've been experienced in paleo times. I mean take us humans for example. Eggs are paleo, but what is the likelihood that you would find them all year round and in large quantities? Chances are eggs would be a lucky find and pretty rare. Or you'd have to climb up a tree to get a few tiny eggs, which may or may not be worth it. Does that mean that eating 60 chicken eggs a week will make you sick? Well maybe, but I don't think so. Our bodies have the capacity to adapt to changing circumstances, as long as we don't go too far out from what we evolved on.

Or take your diet for another example. What is the chance that a paleolithic human would've been consuming bananas and blueberries? And I don't even mean together, I mean in their lifetimes. Wild bananas and blueberries grow in totally opposite climates and there's no way a single paleolithic human would have, at any point in their lifetime, travelled from one to the other in order to experience both. But that doesn't mean it's a bad idea to have both. Your body is quite able to adapt to the new circumstances because the foods and the nutritional profile in your diet are close enough to what our ancestors would've been eating for tens of thousands of generations.

I agree that chickens that are raised 100% on raw grain are probably not the healthiest. What the optimal percentage of grains in their diet would be, I don't know.

[TylerDurden]

Actually, many RPDers insist on only buying locally as buying food from 1000s of miles away causes issues re nutrients or lack thereof.As regards chickens, a few thousand years of eating a less healthy diet does by no means imply adaptation to such a poorer diet, as it takes a lot longer  for the body's organs etc. to switch.

I do not do well with excesses of raw eggs and some other rpders are like me. Even Aajonus admitted that raw eggs were great for energy but were useless for rebuilding/healing the body.

On a side-note, I have often noticed that even  domesticated wild game species, such as wild boar, still taste way better than pigs which have been domesticated for many 1000s of years, even if the wild boar have been fed on a poor diet of  mostly grains. Domestication not only makes animals stupider than their counterparts in the wild, but it ruins them in a multitude of other ways as well. That is why rewilding is such a good idea for humans.

[dariorpl]

About the nutrient loss, I think that would depend on the means of transport and storage.

A few thousand years worth of chicken domestication is a lot because in chickens, a generation is about 1 year from what I understand about chicken biology (which isn't much). Maybe it's more than 1 year, but it's certainly much less than the 16-20 years we think of for humans. Going through more generations means the DNA has more chances to adapt to a changing environment. And with domesticated animals, the smart human breeder can provide an additional selection pressure, looking for health in the animal as well as healthgiving properties of their meat and products (eggs, milk) when consumed by us humans. Even if you disregard the artificial selective pressure (breeding), 2500 years worth of chicken domestication would be around 2500 generations from my calculations, which would be the equivalent of how humans have been living for the past 40-50 thousand years. Still not that much when compared to 500k to 2.5 million years of proto-human evolution, but it's something. Archeologists believe the humans species in it's modern recognizable form has only existed for 100k to 200 thousand years. Chances are there's been changes to the DNA pool along the way also, just not so intense that they would be able to easily tell from fossils.

About AV and eggs, iirc he said that they're wonderful for healing, just not for rebuilding. Which is kind of weird because chicks grow on eggs and they don't need to heal much, just build. Many bodybuilders use toxic egg white protein extract as well as whey protein extract from milk to increase their muscle growth. And even though the proteins have been processed and dried, it works. I would tend to think the way it would work in nature would be the opposite. That eggs and milk would be better for building, and meat better for healing. (the way people used to place a steak on a bruise instead of ice). If I think about it, a carnivore is likely to get minor injuries while hunting. Then the meat would supply the perfect nutrients for healing. Maybe what Aajonus meant was that eggs are good for pulling and binding to toxins.

I've never had wild meat other than fish, so I can't comment on the taste. I'm sure they taste better. I would love to try some. However, we need to realize that while it might be the best for our health, it's not applicable on a mass scale. Which doesn't mean some of us can't enjoy the benefits, but we can't expect everybody to. According to calculations I've seen, the average fertile and wild land only naturally provides enough edible food for around 1 person per square mile.

[TylerDurden]

Length of time is meaningless when one considers that giant pandas and their immediate ancestor have been eating mostly bamboo for  several millions of years despite having a carnivorous digestive system. Plus, evolution via natural selection is way, way healthier for an animal than domesticated breeding by humans. For example, most current species of dogs are severely inbred and have numerous nasty genetic problems as a result.

I am certain you got it wrong re AV as I clearly recall him stating that eggs were great for energy but not for rebuilding the body. Admittedly I do not have his books any more. Perhaps  someone can give a quote re this? The bodybuilders' example re artificial supplements is unfortunate since many bodybuilders have had awful health problems in the long run from all the supplements they take.

Really organised farmers can concentrate a large biomass into a small area and sustain many humans thereby. I vaguely recall one rpder who posted on rawpaleoforum   about an amazing fish-farm which was basically organic, if not necessarily in name/label - up to that point, I always claimed that fish farms were ruinous to the environment but this fish-farm did not rely on wild fish being killed to sustain the farmed fish nor did the farmed fish have to rely on artificial feeds of grains etc.

[dariorpl]

Length of time is meaningless when one considers that giant pandas and their immediate ancestor have been eating mostly bamboo for  several millions of years despite having a carnivorous digestive system.

Are the pandas healthier on fresh bamboo, or on meat?

Plus, evolution via natural selection is way, way healthier for an animal than domesticated breeding by humans. For example, most current species of dogs are severely inbred and have numerous nasty genetic problems as a result.

Are you sure this isn't from being fed garbage instead of their natural diets of raw meat? Plus the addition of vaccines, chemicals and drugs to their diet for veterinary purposes?

Some dog breeds are clearly artificially selected not for health, but for looking "cool". Those would clearly be made unhealthy.

I wasn't saying chicken is healthier to eat than wild jungle fowl would be, just that chickens may be healthier on a higher grain diet than jungle fowl would be.

I am certain you got it wrong re AV as I clearly recall him stating that eggs were great for energy but not for rebuilding the body. Admittedly I do not have his books any more. Perhaps  someone can give a quote re this?

I'll try. A quick search on his two books didn't turn up anything, but I remember him talking about this somewhere.

The bodybuilders' example re artificial supplements is unfortunate since many bodybuilders have had awful health problems in the long run from all the supplements they take.

Oh I agree, I'm just saying it works for muscle growth. I'm not sure if it works better or worse than dried, processed meat protein would.

Really organised farmers can concentrate a large biomass into a small area and sustain many humans thereby. I vaguely recall one rpder who posted on rawpaleoforum   about an amazing fish-farm which was basically organic, if not necessarily in name/label - up to that point, I always claimed that fish farms were ruinous to the environment but this fish-farm did not rely on wild fish being killed to sustain the farmed fish nor did the farmed fish have to rely on artificial feeds of grains etc.

It depends on how the farm is set up. It also depends on what you mean by farming being bad for the environment.  If you mean that there will be less lifeforms that don't improve our health, so that there can be more that do, you're absolutely right, and that's the whole point. If you mean that the soil is drained of minerals, that can be solved by using more organic practices for fertilizing. And I believe that using ocean fish to feed an organic fish farm (like aquaponics) is a great idea. See, no matter how much manure we use for fertilizing soil, there will still be a lot of fertilizers that go down the sewer and into the ocean. We don't want to use those to fertilize our fields because most humans today are super loaded with toxicity, and so are their excretions. It's better if we allow ocean lifeforms to deal with those chemical toxins, and neutralize them or make them into less toxic substances, before we reintroduce them into our food system.

[dariorpl]

That last post of mine was a bit snarky, I'm sorry. I overreacted to what you said about fish farms hurting the environment.

[TylerDurden]

Are the pandas healthier on fresh bamboo, or on meat?

I do not know, but I suspect they would do far better on raw meat than bamboo. Eating bamboo at any rate makes them sluggish and they have to select specific types of bamboo as some varieties are easier to digest than others.

Are you sure this isn't from being fed garbage instead of their natural diets of raw meat? Plus the addition of vaccines, chemicals and drugs to their diet for veterinary purposes?

Some dog breeds are clearly artificially selected not for health, but for looking "cool". Those would clearly be made unhealthy.

Dog breeds are so inbred that there is now a big movement to breed them with wolves so as to inject some healthy DNA into them. Ironically, wolves are quite inbred themselves in a way, but natural selection swiftly kills off the defective ones, plus humans usually breed dogs for all sorts of unhealthy reasons such as making their faces look like small children, thus causing difficulty breathing etc. A highly processed pet-food diet can cause a lot of further diseases to dogs but most dog species have at least some innate health problems due to their inbred nature.

I wasn't saying chicken is healthier to eat than wild jungle fowl would be, just that chickens may be healthier on a higher grain diet than jungle fowl would be.

Like I said, chickens have not had enough evolutionary time to adapt to  100% grains-filled diets. There is another aspect:- some rpders who were allergic to grains also found minor allergenic effects when eating grainfed meats or raw eggs from grainfed chickens. It is not only chickens that have to be adapted to grains, therefore, but us as well to a much lesser extent.

Oh I agree, I'm just saying it works for muscle growth. I'm not sure if it works better or worse than dried, processed meat protein would.

Arnold Schwarzenegger  once admitted that during his Austrian Army days, the canteen provided him with meat that was twice as overcooked as it should have been, so that  he had to work twice as hard to get rid of the flab and add on enough muscle, as he did before.

It depends on how the farm is set up. It also depends on what you mean by farming being bad for the environment.  If you mean that there will be less lifeforms that don't improve our health, so that there can be more that do, you're absolutely right, and that's the whole point. If you mean that the soil is drained of minerals, that can be solved by using more organic practices for fertilizing. And I believe that using ocean fish to feed an organic fish farm (like aquaponics) is a great idea. See, no matter how much manure we use for fertilizing soil, there will still be a lot of fertilizers that go down the sewer and into the ocean. We don't want to use those to fertilize our fields because most humans today are super loaded with toxicity, and so are their excretions. It's better if we allow ocean lifeforms to deal with those chemical toxins, and neutralize them or make them into less toxic substances, before we reintroduce them into our food system.

It is a very bad idea indeed to feed farmed fish with wild fish. This just depletes the environment. The farm I was talking about set up a huge pond,/minor lake in which smaller fish ate plants in the middle, with larger fish on the outskirts which fed on the smaller fish but were somewhat hindered by the plants. So it was self-sustaining.