Durianrider / Freelee

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

How long do you guys think it will take them to run into a real health problem because of their diet?

[cherimoya_kid]

How long do you guys think it will take them to run into a real health problem because of their diet?

About the same amount of time it took Doug Graham, if they've made it this far. Harley already looks pretty weathered, and Doug Graham looks many years older than his age. A small percentage of the population will only experience accelerated aging and mild neurological symptoms on that diet. Those end up being its preachers.

You could say the same about various cooked paleo diets as well. Heck, you could even say it about this diet, although I don't know of anyone who truly won't thrive on this diet as long as they are truly willing to embrace it's more disgusting aspects, like high meat, etc..

[goodsamaritan]

Harley takes B12 shots, so he is already using a crutch.

[cherimoya_kid]

Harley takes B12 shots, so he is already using a crutch.

Those shots won't stop the accelerated aging. And brewer's yeast has plenty of B-12, I don't know why he doesn't just eat that. Taking those shots just makes him look like a coward.

[cherimoya_kid]

After googling brewer's yeast, it appears as though it may not have much B-12 after all. I know a longtime raw vegan who cured her numbness and tingling in her fingers with brewer's yeast, so that's why I thought it worked for B-12 deficiency. Oral supplements still are superior to injecting it, though. What kind of natural diet expert has to inject supplements?  LOL...

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

Yeah, why he chose injections as a b12 form is puzzling. Arent they derived from animals anyway?

I cant believe their teeth haven't rotted out.

[cherimoya_kid]

Yeah, why he chose injections as a b12 form is puzzling. Arent they derived from animals anyway?

I cant believe their teeth haven't rotted out.

I imagine they are VERY serious about flossing and brushing their teeth. If you have good teeth and take good care of them, they can last a long time on that diet. You'll still have sensitive teeth, quite probably, though.

[dariorpl]

Why do you think it's important to brush and floss, CK? And do you think it's important to use mouthwash too? And why only on this diet?

The only two paradigms I know are really only the mainstream dentistry/medical paradigm, and then the primal from AV which is that the only reason to brush is to remove toxins which detoxify from the brain and get formed into plaque to make them less harmful for your teeth, but that it still is harmful after a few days if not removed, and that it's not bacteria that cause tooth decay.

I suppose the standard raw paleo view is that bacteria do cause tooth decay, but that on a healthy diet your body fights that bacteria naturally, so there's no need to brush and floss but it's still helpful? Or?

[cherimoya_kid]

This is a HUGE topic. The former raw vegans, especially the former fruitarian-ish ones, are going to have a lot to say. 

Suffice it to say that I don't take any extreme viewpoint on this. The facts are what they are. Saber tooth doesn't need to brush/floss, but those of us who eat more carbs do need to brush/floss. Part of that is the fact that carbs deactivate vitamin D in several ways, which then leaves your teeth sticky (vitamin D helps them be "slick" and not so sticky).

Of course, we know the acids from oral bacteria also damage teeth, which also helps plaque stick to teeth.

[dariorpl]

I'm not sure what to do.

This past month or so I've been brushing only once a day at most, and without toothpaste. And I stopped using mouthwash.

However, when I'm going somewhere where I'll be close to someone for a while, I brush with (fluoride) toothpaste and then use (non fluoride, alcohol based) mouthwash also. I don't think I have bad breath without doing this, but I might still be a little paranoid about it. In any case, I think doing this causes me teeth sensitivity. Like on those days if I drink cold water a few hours after brushing, it hurts quite a bit, but on other days it doesn't seem to.

In the past, I used to get a lot of plaque. Now I don't notice any. I still brush every now and then just in case.

[cherimoya_kid]

I brush with coconut oil. I floss daily, pretty vigorously, too. My gums would start to bleed if I didn't. I never use mouthwash. I also take mineral supplements to strengthen my teeth sometimes, like bone meal and Terramin clay.

[dariorpl]

I had to floss after every meal when I was eating cooked red meats. They'd get stuck all over my teeth. With raw meats, I still floss every now and then, but most of the time there's only the odd little piece stuck and it's not a big deal to get it out even without flossing.

I haven't been able to find reliably raw coconut oil (AV said it doesn't exist), and getting terramin clay is a challenge with the import restrictions here, but I'm trying to figure out how to get it.

Is bone meal raw and fresh, or cooked and dry?

I wonder what makes your gums bleed if you don't floss.

[cherimoya_kid]

It doesn't matter if the coconut oil is raw if you're just brushing with it.

Store-bought bone meal is cooked, but you can make your own pretty easily with a farrier's file and a large bone.

As far as bleeding gums goes, I'm not sure. Maybe the waste products from the oral bacteria.

[PaleoPhil]

When I was zero carb, I still needed to brush and floss. Just my own experience, FWIW, not saying it applies to anyone else.

[TylerDurden]

When I was zero carb, I still needed to brush and floss. Just my own experience, FWIW, not saying it applies to anyone else.

Ditto.

[cherimoya_kid]

I wonder if Lex needs to brush/floss.

[Carne Cruda]

When I was zero carb, I still needed to brush and floss. Just my own experience, FWIW, not saying it applies to anyone else.

What does the word "need" imply?
That you'd get cavities, or plaque anyway, otherwise? Or something else?

Personally, if I don't eat carbs I don't worry about brushing.
More often than not I end up doing it all the same, at least once a day, apart from the seldom occasions in a year when I might stay at home not seeing anybody for 2 days straight.
Though, I mean, as you could guess, the brushing & flossing aren't driven by fear of tooth decay and such.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for your interest and providing the opportunity to explain further, Carne. I'll start out by providing some context--I share Tribe's and Cheri's distaste for Durianrider and Doug Graham's preachings (and I agree that Doug looks much older than his age, though I don't want to provoke Tyler into an argument about appearances, so take that FWIW ), and GS's point about DR's B12 injections. I wouldn't advocate that anyone follow DR's and Doug's examples.

There was still the "sticky" stuff on my teeth that Cheri referred to when I was VLC and zero carb, along with tartar and plaque, as there was before (though it was at least easier to remove--that and VLC/ZC/Keto claims caused me to actually become more optimistic and complacent than I should have been), and my gums were still bleeding and receding (to the point of needing surgery, due to a collapsed area of the gum, which was quite an eye-opener for me that helped reveal to me that VLC/ZC wasn't doing everything that the advocates claimed), and I had a cavity that my dentists were concerned about  that was not healing. There was less sticky stuff than in my SAD days (which misled me into premature optimism), but still enough to cause the gum bleeding and receding.

Since then, my dental health has improved, but I have not been ZC during this improvement. I wrote about it some in my journal. I brush and floss less now than I did when I was ZC, with better results. My experience has been closer to Tyler's than yours, apparently. No "fear" involved. Quite the opposite--I was probably too complacent about my dental health when I was ZC and VLC. I also don't "worry" about brushing now, but it's not because I'm ZC. Some of what has worked for me is unrelated to carbs.

Please don't get me wrong and assume that I'm some high-carb vegan or something. Tyler and other forum veterans can tell you that in the past I tried ZC and described my approach as "facultative carnivore" and debated vegetarian-oriented folks here (and elsewhere). Been there, done that. I'm still LC and not a vegetarian by any stretch of the imagination, but my approach now is more along the lines of the omnivory that Tyler, GS and others have advocated than the VLC/ZC that Lex Rooker (a strong past influence) and others have written positively about (to Lex's credit, he frequently discouraged people from taking his journal as a prescription, which made it all the more credible and persuasive, unfortunately for me).

I hope that helps explain things. If you're interested in learning more, Tyler has written extensively about his experience and problems/dangers with VLC/ZC (Tyler's experience with it actually seems to have been worse than mine was), as have others who are no longer active. It's unfortunate that so many of them become inactive, as they could be a warning to others. In retrospect, I wish they had stayed more active and thus provided more of a warning to folks like me.

Take it FWIW. I'm not prescribing to anyone else. I hope this personal story does not disappoint you. Cheers and good luck in whatever path you choose.

[sabertooth]

Mr. Durian Rider should know by now that one cannot live a healthy life following his advise. The fact that he has to inject "so called "vitamin b 12 should be a huge sign. For christ sake Harley come off your supper vegan obsession and drink a damn raw egg every one and a while.

The Banana girl is a bit of an enigma, she doesn't seem to be as ornery and hateful towards Paleos as her Man. I think we should observe her condition over the next few years to get a close look at what happens. From what we know about her, I would guess that she could keep up her vegan routine for a least a few more years before the signs of malnutrition begin to show. She has only been raw vegetarian since 2006, and previous to that she was a big girl who had large store of non vegan nutrients locked within her bodies tissues. It can take years for the fat soluble vitamins and minerals in the bones to become completely depleted. The girl takes good care of herself and since she hasn't had any children she may have a few more years before the down side of fruitarianism becomes apparent. Though I bet If she were to get pregnant it would be a disaster unless she changed her fruit based diet significantly....

Then there is the skeptic who says, how do we know exactly what she is doing to maintain herself?... perhaps she has cheated and like Durian takes artificial supplements..... or she may even milk the banana from time to time( if you know what I mean) not that there us anything wrong with that, but Durian may not be able to keep up the supply for such a hungry bananavor( if you know what I mean)



Brushing with tooth paste and using mouthwash can upset the salivatic, enzymatic and microbial bio film which work toward cleaning the palate naturally, while it predigest incoming food.

Brushing regularly leads to a vicious cycle, where having cleaned away all your natural protection, you leave the mouth wide open to overgrowth of more pathogenic and corrosive elements.

I insist that even people who eat some carbs, would not need to brush or floss if they adopted some basic natural hygiene methods, I have used since a teenager to stay cavity free. I simply swish my mouth out with my own saliva after I eat anything. Its such an ingrained habit now that I do it without even thinking about it. Take notice of other animals habits, cats and dogs for example can often be seen licking their chops. People are capable of doing the same, only through cultural conditioning many have forgotten about instinctive hygiene. 

Perhaps in highly superficial social situations which constitute much of the modern life of man, it is unsightly for people to be seen tongue-ing around their mouth, or using a finger nail to pick their teeth...... or picking pest out of their friends hair and eating it ect. So after generations of such societal conditioning the practice of natural hygiene was forgotten and now that the obsession with cleanliness has been capitalized, much of modern humanity believes that everyone needs to brush their teeth with paste, wash their skin with soap, shave their body hair with cream, deodorize their arm pits with Aluminum based antiperspirants, (and on and on) Its astonishing, what links people will go through in order to avoid grooming and caring for themselves in the manor of our more animalistic ancestors.

People have been brainwashed since childhood to believe that you need nylon brushes and caustic paste in order to clean our mouths, its simply not true...only that because we have lost touch with instinctive hygiene, while at the same time corrupting the integrity of our bodies through modern dietary practices, that our dental health has become dependent upon having to brush way corrosive plaque buildup. No other animals need to do this, and Weston Price even noticed how well the teeth of indigenous people who never used tooth brushes were.

Even people who practice the paleo diet today do not practice the way in which paleo man must of eaten. I will gnaw on bones and connective tissue. If you ever had to strip the meat off a whole piece of carcass with your teeth and chew and rip away the flesh from the bone by gritting your teeth biting down hard. The degree of dental exercise that a whole animal, uncut paleo eating method will strengthen the jaw and promote the health and robustness of the whole being from tooth to toe.

[PaleoPhil]

She has only been raw vegetarian since 2006

Sabertooth, as I posted before, Freelee has been eating TONS of cooked carby foods for a while and proudly showed some examples of the enormous quantities of cooked foods she eats at a single meal and in a single day. She called it "raw till 4." She even said that Harley eats some cooked food too, and they both started touting Dr. John McDougall instead of Doug Graham. I think Harley even went on the attack against Graham, IIRC. Despite their change, I'll bet that neither Freelee nor Harley has apologized for all the years that they viciously criticized people for not being "100% raw" vegan.

I rarely pay attention to either of them, but Youtube unfortunately pushes their videos to me (apparently because I up-thumbed some raw diet videos, such as ones about you). One can tell from even just the video titles that their views and practices have changed and some titles were such dramatic contradictions of their past views that I checked the videos out enough to confirm that they have indeed dramatically changed their views, but they used bogus excuses and blather to try to make it seem like they haven't, of course.


I don't use conventional tooth paste and mouthwash and don't brush or floss every day. I have had good luck with what I do use (including something I learned about from this forum). My dentist and hygienists even asked me what I am doing that is giving me such good results and one of the hygienists is now using one of the things that I use. One of them said that I must be brushing and flossing more and to keep up the good work. I didn't want an argument, so I didn't tell her that I brush and floss less than I have in many years.

Thanks for the tips. I heard about using the tongue before in helping to keep the mouth clean, so I actually already do that myself, and sometimes use my fingernail, though it doesn't reach everywhere, and also like to gnaw on bones (which I first witnessed a friend of mine doing years ago). No brainwashing here.

[sabertooth]

Yeah, I haven't really followed much of what they are claiming now days, I guess its good that they are willing to change their rigid mind in order to not suffer horribly as many vegan extremist have who have come befor.

Everyone has to change, people like Durian who will not come out and say that he was mistaken and recant on his extremism are a detriment to the embetterment of our collective understanding in the health minded community . He has destroyed what little credibility he has ever possessed, and if anyone still follows his earlier strict raw vegan dogma, they are just as incredibly  foolish.

[jessica]

Basically they are just controlled diabetics, they are fucking with their insulin to have dumps of it, I know in my eating disorder/exercise bulemia days i had a pretty good grasp on maintaining a super lean physique while bingeing on carbs, as long as i could spaz the fuck out for hours on end and sweat my ass off.  I am sure they both have super high anxiety, cant relax and dont sleep much.  Freelees body is a pretty good sign of malnutrition, shes a fucking bobble head for gods sake, and those tits arent real.  I doubt she is fertile.

[cherimoya_kid]

Basically they are just controlled diabetics, they are fucking with their insulin to have dumps of it, I know in my eating disorder/exercise bulemia days i had a pretty good grasp on maintaining a super lean physique while bingeing on carbs, as long as i could spaz the fuck out for hours on end and sweat my ass off.  I am sure they both have super high anxiety, cant relax and dont sleep much.  Freelees body is a pretty good sign of malnutrition, shes a fucking bobble head for gods sake, and those tits arent real.  I doubt she is fertile.

yes to all of this.

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

If we ever want to get the type of following 80 10 10 gets, someone will need to organize a Youtube channel like freelee/DR

[cherimoya_kid]

If we ever want to get the type of following 80 10 10 gets, someone will need to organize a Youtube channel like freelee/DR

I think a lot of people just watch for the entertainment value. I imagine few watchers of these videos do much more than slightly increase the proportion of fruit in their diet. I am not in the business of selling a product or entertaining people. This is not a game to me. Harley has enough arrogance and ego to treat nutrition with far less deep thought and research than I do. I come humbly to the temple of knowledge, as it were.

My arrogance on this topic got beat out of me by my failures. Harley's still trying to game the whole thing, but it's not a game to me.  Honestly, I'd have completely ignored him if he hadn't trolled here so much. I am not interested in interacting with people who mock me instead of debating seriously on these issues.