Why are vegetables bad?

[Owen405]

What is the scientific evidence? I am not disagreeing, I am just curious as to why? Obviously, many people would disagree. Like Mark Sisson.

PS: I am a newb to the whole Raw Paleo thing and only started today; I am still transitioning into eating raw meat.

Thanks.

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

most are hard to digest, and contain harmful anti nutrients.

i eat salads of soft tender leafy vegetables.

[Alive]

Raw vegetables are very healthy and support beneficial gut microbes.
I'm loving eating lots of raw cabbage, carrots, celery, broccoli, cauliflower etc...
I find they digest very easily.

[Owen405]

So for some people they are hard to digest and for others they are okay?

[cherimoya_kid]

So for some people they are hard to digest and for others they are okay?

that appears to be the case, from what we've found.

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

Raw broccoli, kale, cabbage, chard, bok choy, dandelion, spinach(i can eat young spinach) will constipate me and give me stomach pains. I also see them come out undigested...

EVERYONE is different though!

[TylerDurden]

Yeah, raw vegetables have antinutrients in them so are not usually recommended on a rawpalaeo diet. That said, I do have the occasional salad and tomatoes with radishes. Doesn't seem to harm me.

[Iguana]

So for some people they are hard to digest and for others they are okay?

Some people season them with salt, condiments, oil, vinegar  and mix them, so they can't select and eat only in the proper amount the ones they specifically need and are able to digest at the moment!

[Projectile Vomit]

I eat lots of raw vegetables when they're in season and I can get them fresh. Kale, chard, spinach, other salad greens, celery, garlic, onion, sweet potatoes, regular potatoes (in small quantities), and other tubers and roots, to name just a few. I also gather a lot of wild vegetables and even mushrooms. Just harvested some wild leeks the other day, and hope to get out later this week to harvest some wild burdock root.

I can't imagine raw paleo without vegetables. It seems like it would be (a) too deficient in phytochemicals, and (b) far too expensive.

[goodsamaritan]

I agree with you Eric.  I try to get my raw vegetables through juicing at times when I feel like it.  Even dried and ground malunggay helps. 

[AshSimmonds]

What is the scientific evidence?

Why should "veggies = healthy" be the default? Where's the evidence they are?

Obviously, many people would disagree. Like Mark Sisson.

I put together a point by point takedown of Sisson's arguments for veggies. I like Sisson, but by pandering to the "plant-based paleo" crowd (as he must, financially) he is on super thin ground and mostly just making shit up that sounds *slightly* better than your standard mother advice of "eat your damn veggies".

Edit: I can't post links cos I'm too "new". Just google [HIGH STEAKS ARE VEGETABLES NECESSARY FOR GOOD HEALTH SISSON] or something if you can be bothered.

[political atheist]

i think HERBS are healthy... AV planned to research herbs, he wrote about this at the end of his book... pre-flood, adam and eve ate: seed baring fruits and herbs of the field(NOT veggies of the field, herbs like dandelion, comfrey, parsley, burdock,  etcetc.)

after the flood MEAT(animal products: milk, eggs, fish, land animals, insects, dairy) was added to the diet....  i think veggies, tubers are food for plant eating animals... and they give us their milk and meat

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

If you can digest it raw, then eat it! If i myself ate raw kale, broccoli, or cabbage, i would be constipated for weeks.

i stick to watery, tender leaf vegetables, and bland fruits.

[RogueFarmer]

I agree with you Eric.  I try to get my raw vegetables through juicing at times when I feel like it.  Even dried and ground malunggay helps. 

GS we are growing malunggay! Do you eat katuk as well? We grow that too.

[cherimoya_kid]

GS we are growing malunggay! Do you eat katuk as well? We grow that too.

Katuk is great. Tastes like peanut butter. How is it not a common salad green in the US by now?

[Wenchypoo]

Newbie with a question here:  would sprouts be considered acceptable here?  They're almost non-existent for carbs (1 c. = less than 1 carb), yet very high in nutrients.  Say if I were to fashion a meat/sprout salad with homemade mayo dressing--would THAT be approved?  I'd undercook the meat, of course, since I'm in training to eventually get to raw.

Now I'm off to go look up "katuk" and "malunggay" to broaden my ZC learning.

[TylerDurden]

Sprouts, imo, are essential if one is on a raw vegan diet. They are also fine on a RVAF diet. Not sure how they fit an RZC diet.

[eveheart]

...--would THAT be approved?

I'd caution against looking for "approval" and use your own tastes and results as a guide.

My experience with near-zero carb is very negative, including irritability by day and insomnia by night. OTOH, a carb overload makes me dopey and tired. I found my carb "sweet spot" by trial and error. I could tell you the daily range of carbohydrate grams that I maintain, but that would be useless to you because you would have to find your own range. I will mention that I eat virtually no carbs until dinner, keeping me alert and energetic all day long and allowing me a great night's sleep. I found a good carb load limit for me  with blood-sugar test strips, useful in my case because I had type 2 diabetes.

As you transition, keep in mind that your body may do best in the long run with raw, unprocessed fats. IMO, I'd get rid of the mayo even before going raw. You might not even be pleased with the taste of a pile of sprouts on their own, and that is good information to have. Or you might love them....

[PaleoPhil]

FWIW, I don't find fresh raw, young veggies particularly hard to digest, though they do take time to chew. I tend to go with the smaller, younger, freshest versions of veggies that are easiest to digest and tastiest (I also tend to find smaller varieties of fruits to be tastiest, though not always). They don't constipate me or give me stomach pains. I don't eat huge amounts of them like some vegans and plant-based dieters do. Since I've been eating more foods rich in prebiotics like resistant starch, I no longer see significant amounts of raw veggies come out undigested (the only foods I see do that now are nuts and seeds). I don't normally season them with salt, condiments, oil or vinegar. I only eat ones I find tasty. What is tasty for me would not be considered tasty by many Westerners, because I find bitter foods like endive and sour foods like lemons and meyer lemons to be some of the tastiest of all.

The raw foods that constipate me most are lean meats, even if chopped/ground up first (though that helps). I don't take that to mean that raw lean meats are harmful foods and I still eat them, I just try not to overdo it. I found that eating MOAR and MOAR fat didn't help, but eating more prebiotics, fiber and magnesium did. ZC turned out to be harmful for me too, despite feeling great on it early on.

As always, YMMV.

[kalo]

I suffer from indigestion, then depression when I eat certain veggies/nuts. I recently cooked a chicken and made bone broth and my stools smell horrible (or normal for most). I'm finding so many triggers, that it is getting easier for me to just want raw meat only. Most everything else causes diarrhea, especially if it is cooked. So I totally understand eating a balanced diet of fat, protein, starch, and plants but I just want to find something that lets me feel normal(ish).

[political atheist]

I'd caution against looking for "approval" and use your own tastes and results as a guide.

My experience with near-zero carb is very negative, including irritability by day and insomnia by night. OTOH, a carb overload makes me dopey and tired. I found my carb "sweet spot" by trial and error. I could tell you the daily range of carbohydrate grams that I maintain, but that would be useless to you because you would have to find your own range. I will mention that I eat virtually no carbs until dinner, keeping me alert and energetic all day long and allowing me a great night's sleep. I found a good carb load limit for me  with blood-sugar test strips, useful in my case because I had type 2 diabetes.

As you transition, keep in mind that your body may do best in the long run with raw, unprocessed fats. IMO, I'd get rid of the mayo even before going raw. You might not even be pleased with the taste of a pile of sprouts on their own, and that is good information to have. Or you might love them....

did you increase significantly your salt intake and magnesium intake while on near zero carb diet?

[eveheart]

did you increase significantly your salt intake and magnesium intake while on near zero carb diet?

Although I never tried a near-zero carb diet, I count carbs so I can control diabetes by diet alone. My daily target carb number is less than 100g, more likely 50g of carbs per day. IMO, I would see no reason to limit carbs as strictly as I do if you had no medical reason to do so.

I was never tried salt restriction. I buy a colorful (unrefined) salt and use it whenever I want. I never measure salt.

I supplement magnesium with Epsom salt baths (ahhhhh!) or Natural Calm powder in water. I gauge magnesium need by sleep quality and bowel regularity. Transdermal magnesium supplementation (baths) works the best for me. When supplementing magnesium by mouth, the unabsorbed magnesium irritates the bowels. I avoid bowel irritation whenever possible. I can buy Epsom salts from chemical supply houses in 25 or 50 pound bags at a very low price. [Note to parents/grandparents: putting magnesium in the children's evening bathwater is a sure-fire way to get them to sleep. When I babysit my grandbabies, we "play" in the Epsom salty bathtub for about 30 minutes. Then I put on their jammies, read them a bedtime story, and get their sleepy heads into bed and watch them drift instantly to sleep. Works every time.]

[thetasig]

I'd like to suggest that not all vegetables are bad (in my experience, only a few give me indigestion). By way of explanation, I went on a ketogenic diet for about 1.5 years and lost 40 pounds of fat (the "spare tire" nearly disappeared). Check out Mark Maunder's site "The Basic Ketogenic Diet. As well as explaining how to do it and the benefits, he also includes along list of foods that include many vegetables, such as radishes, celery, asparagus, and the like (interesting that he excludes kale and some others). Keep in mind that ketogenic means burning fat for fuel instead of carbohydrates. So eat protein, but also eat good fats (avocado, salmon, duck breast, etc.). AV pushed raw meat and good fats for good reason - one's good health.  Cheers.