Do you use salt?

[JaX]

Do you liberally use salt or do you follow Loren Cordain's advice and stay away from it?

Experienced any benefits from adding it to food (better digestion, etc)?

[Raw Kyle]

Rarely because I usually just eat meat and sometimes fruit. I put salt on the last batch of jerky I made.

[TylerDurden]

Well, a few  like Lex have claimed that salt was essential(presumably a zero-carb requirement?). I've never felt a need for it. Though, once when I was doing raw zero-carb(and failing miserably) I was feeling so dehydrated despite drinking vast amounts of mineral water(and urinating it all out shortly after) that I added salt to the mineral-water I was drinking as that's supposed to hydrate the body more effectively than salt-free water. Didn't work, though, for me, that time.

[Michael]

I had a period over a number of years when following the primal diet when I added no salt to my diet. 

However, since adding it back in 3 or 4 years ago I've found that I suffer less digestive problems, no longer had such frequent periods of weakness/shakiness etc.  I do suffer with adrenal problems which causes the body problems relating to salt regulation.  So, for me, I seem to do much better with it!

I add a generous pinch of Celtic sea salt to all of my meals which are predominately made up of fatty cuts of beef or lamb with marrow, when available, and a few vegetable flavourings (parsley, garlic, onion...)

I also find I enjoy my meals much more WITH added salt but suppose this may be due to acquired taste or addiction.

[seesawsemiology]

I had a period over a number of years when following the primal diet when I added no salt to my diet. 

However, since adding it back in 3 or 4 years ago I've found that I suffer less digestive problems, no longer had such frequent periods of weakness/shakiness etc.  I do suffer with adrenal problems which causes the body problems relating to salt regulation.  So, for me, I seem to do much better with it!

I add a generous pinch of Celtic sea salt to all of my meals which are predominately made up of fatty cuts of beef or lamb with marrow, when available, and a few vegetable flavourings (parsley, garlic, onion...)

I also find I enjoy my meals much more WITH added salt but suppose this may be due to acquired taste or addiction.

ive recently been having some of the problems youve mentioned here and have begun to think i may have some (hyper) thyroid issues. i also consume little to know salt so your post here intrigues me...
do you (or anyone else) know in detail if and why salt is helpful with these symptoms?

[goodsamaritan]

For the past 1+ year I've been eating raw paleo with zero salt.  I drink coconuts and get hydration from fruits.  I actually don't look for salt.

2 weeks ago when my son went for a checkup with a new doctor who is a raw weston price dieter, he recommended salt to my boy.  My boy is a cooked food eater, he eats some raw meat with me. 

So here I am the parent who needs to try out this salt thing because the doctor ordered it on my boy.  I noticed the past 1 week I did a lot of salt on my meat, I didn't enjoy it.  It felt like work and I felt blah.  I can handle "some" minute quantities of salt, but not a lot of it.  I did try lemons + salt on my oysters and that combination tastes good.  But when I dip my oysters in vinegar, I don't like salt on it.

When I do partake in cooked meat, I think the salt helps somewhat.  But when the meat is fully raw it seems really strange to put salt in it.  I tried a salt rub on beef one time and I totally did not like it.  My little girl likes dipping raw beef in the pools of blood that collect on the plate.

My theory is if you eat bloody meat and hydrating fruits, you get fully hydrated.  If you must drink plain water, then you need salt with it because plain water is badly utilized.  If I'm forced to drink water I squeeze lemon or calamansi and probably add raw honey to make juice.

See the Water Cure website to measure the amount of salt you need with the amount of plain water you drink.  This is for water drinkers.  http://www.watercure2.org/

For non-water drinkers like myself and barefoot and charlotte gerson, maybe we don't need salt.  But I'm open to adjust.  Maybe there is a combination of eating that requires salt and a combination of eating that does not need salt.

I did not notice any improvement in digestion when I add salt.  I did notice I can eat more raw meat when I add a little salt.

[Satya]

ive recently been having some of the problems youve mentioned here and have begun to think i may have some (hyper) thyroid issues. i also consume little to know salt so your post here intrigues me...
do you (or anyone else) know in detail if and why salt is helpful with these symptoms?

Lex has already answered this question here:

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/andrew%27s-journal/msg9558/#msg9558

We need both sodium and chloride in the diet.  Chloride is obviously part of HCl.  And:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloride
"Chloride is a chemical the human body needs for metabolism (the process of turning food into energy). It also helps keep the body's acid-base balance. The amount of chloride in the blood is carefully controlled by the kidneys. Further reading:Renal chloride reabsorption

"Chloride ions have important physiological roles. For instance, in the central nervous system, the inhibitory action of glycine and some of the action of GABA relies on the entry of Cl- into specific neurons. Also, the chloride-bicarbonate exchanger biological transport protein relies on the chloride ion to increase the blood's capacity of carbon dioxide, in the form of the bicarbonate ion.

"The normal blood reference range of chloride for adults in most labs is 95 to 105 milliequivalents (mEq) per liter. The normal range may vary slightly from lab to lab. Normal ranges are usually shown next to your results in the lab report."

http://vitanetonline.com/forums/1/Thread/688
"Deficiency of chloride is rare. However, when it does occur, it results in a life threatening condition known as alkalosis, in which the blood becomes overly alkaline. A tedious balance between alkalinity and acidity is in constant flux, and must be vigilantly maintained throughout the entire body. Alkalosis may occur as a result of excessive loss of sodium, such as heavy sweating during endurance exercise, and in cases of prolonged vomiting and diarrhea. Symptoms include muscle weakness, loss of appetite, irritability, dehydration, and profound lethargy. Hypochloremia may result from water overload, wasting conditions, and extensive bodily burns with sequestration of extracellular fluids. In a situation in which infants were inadvertently fed chloride-deficient formula, many experienced failure to thrive, anorexia, and weakness in their first year of life.3"

For people who eat no salt, plant, or seaweed matter, getting enough chloride can be very difficult.  Whereas sodium is found all over.  Also, sea salt has magnesium and other trace minerals too.  Thus, it is not some poison in reasonable quantities (which depend on activity level).

I sweat hard at a minimum of 1 hour a day 3 days a week practicing martial arts.  A moderate amount of naturally occurring sodium, potassium and chloride is absolutely necessary for superior health.

[lex_rooker]

I started adding salt back into my diet when someone receommeded that it helped them with night time muscle cramps which I was experiencing as well.  It did seem to help but to be truthful I have no idea whether the cramps were just a phase of adjustment or whether the salt did the trick.  

I find I like the taste of salt but not nearly as much as I did when eating cooked food or especially grains.  I think I've calculated that I add between 1 and 1 1/2 grams of salt to my food each day but then often skip a day or two - especially the day or so after I've eaten out and the steaks were over seasoned (sometimes to the point of being inedible and I have to send them back) which is common in restruants.  It seems from my experience that I must need some salt and my actual usage is driven by need.  One gram per day isn't much but it fully satisfys me on most occasions, and I find I don't even want that if I've had too much salt at a previous meal.

Never had digestive problems, though Dr. Barry Groves believes that salt is an important source of the chloride necessary for our bodies to make hydrochloric acid digestive juices.  I suppose the need for added salt depends on other sources for chloride that you might consume.  I would expect that those consuming raw sea foods would naturally get some salt in their diets directlly from their food.  If I remember correctly, Steffannson indicated that the Inuit drank brackish water which contains some salt and he believed that this was important to their health.

I've cut out all fruits and especially their juices, as well as all plant based fats and oils from my diet and my health has been much the better for it.  During my vegan years I believed these foods were critical for health.  The success of my current way of eating has now lead me to believe quite the opposite.  I think that our belief in the need for these foods is driven by custom, culture, and early eduction by parents, family, and politically correct do gooders.  Unfortunately these can be difficult if not impossible influences to overcome.

For the past 3 or 4 years my only beverage has been water.  I drink freely when thirsty and then drink until fully satisfied.  I pay no attention whatever to whether I'm drinking before, after, or during meals and let thirst be the driver.  I have never experienced a problem.

Lex

[TylerDurden]

There are, of course, plenty of natural salts within raw foods, so, IMO, sea-salt/rock-salt is unnecessary.

[Satya]

There are, of course, plenty of natural salts within raw foods, so, IMO, sea-salt/rock-salt is unnecessary.

Chloride is not so easily found in foods.  Which raw animal foods provide ample chloride?  And just to be clear, sea salt is about 84% sodium chloride.  For people eating zero carb, as well as people getting heavy duty exercise or living in a hot climate, extra sources of this electrolyte may well indeed be necessary.

http://westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/mineralprimer.html
"Chloride is widely distributed in the body in ionic form, in balance with sodium or potassium. It helps regulate the correct acid-alkaline balance in the blood and the passage of fluids across cell membranes. It is needed for the production of hydrochloric acid and hence for protein digestion. It also activates the production of amylase enzymes needed for carbohydrate digestion. Chloride is also essential to proper growth and functioning of the brain. The most important source of chloride is salt, as only traces are found in most other foods. Lacto-fermented beverages and bone broths both provide easily assimilated chloride. Other sources include celery and coconut."

[Raw Kyle]

If it's distributed throughout the body does that not suggest that consuming bodies (flesh) you would consume chloride?

[Nicola]

Well, a few  like Lex have claimed that salt was essential(presumably a zero-carb requirement?). I've never felt a need for it. Though, once when I was doing raw zero-carb(and failing miserably) I was feeling so dehydrated despite drinking vast amounts of mineral water(and urinating it all out shortly after) that I added salt to the mineral-water I was drinking as that's supposed to hydrate the body more effectively than salt-free water. Didn't work, though, for me, that time.

You never mentioned how you made up your zero-carb affair - and what pray was your feeling of being dehydrated (I do not have to urinat shortly after - but this may be the ionized concoction)? What was your raw paleo answer to not feeling miserably dehydrated?

It is brain taking...

[Satya]

If it's distributed throughout the body does that not suggest that consuming bodies (flesh) you would consume chloride?

I don't know, does it?  I provided at least some sort of evidence that chloride is not so easily found in foods  This jibes with what Michael and Lex noted.  I am asking for evidence to back up the claim that raw foods have enough chloride for proper functioning.  I can't find this info within the limited search time I have spent looking for it.  I would guess that blood might have a good amount, but blood is hard to find.  But then again, this is a guess.

[lex_rooker]

I would guess that blood might have a good amount, but blood is hard to find.  But then again, this is a guess.

From what I understand the majority of the ionic forms of sodium and potassium chlorides are in solution in the blood.  Our slaughter process removes as much blood as possible and this may well be why some of us find adding a bit of salt to our diet helpful.  Possibly if we consumed a significant amount of blood as part of our diet we wouldn't desire the externally added salt at all.  This idea seems to fit with my personal desire for salt.  When I've had sufficient salt then I don't want it added to my daily food for several days. 

Lex

[Raw Rob]

We need the salt because our meat has been drained of blood. (Unless you have a fresh kill in front of you.) This makes sense to me now after reading these posts.

It also makes sense to me because when I get a cut, I like the salty taste of the blood. (Even though people would tell me not to lick my wounds as a kid.) I guess it was all perfectly natural.

I'm gonna start using a little salt on my meat now. Thanks Lex.

[wodgina]

Does sweat need to be salty?

Adding salt to my meat mix did nothing for my cramps when i went ZC. It's just an adjustment thing and lasts a couple of months.

I dont think its that important as ive been labouring all day in 40 degree heat with overalls and full face respirator and do an afternoon workout salt free.

[Satya]

I just asked my ranch lady if I could get some beef blood.  She said she'd have to get back to me, as no one has ever asked!  Blood sausages are not that uncommon, I would think.  But then again, I have a good vintage and may be out of the modern loop.

[Satya]

Does sweat need to be salty?

Adding salt to my meat mix did nothing for my cramps when i went ZC. It's just an adjustment thing and lasts a couple of months.

I dont think its that important as ive been labouring all day in 40 degree heat with overalls and full face respirator and do an afternoon workout salt free.

But haven't you had problems with muscle cramping?  Could be an individual thing too, I suppose.

[rafonly]

i'd like to add here 1 thing that comes to mind:

salt comes, initially (even rock salt), from the ocean
in the sea, salt is always dissolved

therefore
the most natural way to take salt is to have it dissolved in water -- such as making a brine w/ deionzed water

personally i make such a brine by adding to deionized tap water the right amount of hawaiian sea salt blended w/ red clay (for a marinade or meat dressing) or blended w/ black volcanic lava (for drinking plain water)

why sea salt & not rock salt?
sea salt contains volatile elements that have long dried/died out from rock salt

1 advantage i've observed:
if i add dry salt crystals straight to my food (= raw meat), after a few days of such practice i start getting edema in my legs or face
if i add the above-mentioned brine (oftentimes mixed w/ lemon juice) to my food, i enjoy the feasts & have no such edematic after-effect

[incidentally, fyi, to evaluate my experience, lemon being anaionic, is the very only type of fruit i've put in my mouth since august 08]

[TylerDurden]

I don't know, does it?  I provided at least some sort of evidence that chloride is not so easily found in foods  This jibes with what Michael and Lex noted.  I am asking for evidence to back up the claim that raw foods have enough chloride for proper functioning.  I can't find this info within the limited search time I have spent looking for it.  I would guess that blood might have a good amount, but blood is hard to find.  But then again, this is a guess.

Raw Kyle made a rather obvious point. While chloride is claimed to mostly come from plant-sources(according to biased vegan-leaning nutrition websites(note how they very rarely mention animal foods as a source UNLESS it simply can't be found in plant-food), it should be noted that we eat meats from animals raised on all sorts of plant-foods, so that their meat should have plenty of chloride in them.Plus, raw meats are often washed in chlorinated water before sale.

The argument re blood isn't too convincing. I mean, if one is eating raw liver(as opposed to specially dessicated liver), then there's always some blood in the liver(often huge amounts). Also, while the blood is almost completely(?) leached out of meat via kosher/halal practices, normal meat-industry standards do not require such blood-draining methods(otherwise why is it so easy to get hold of bloody, juicy steaks in restaurants, grassfed or grainfed?).

Re salt:- I tend to get a sort of toxic minor shock in my mouth when I eat more than incredibly minute amounts of salt, a bit  like what I now sometimes  experience after eating too much  raw honeycomb, but much sharper and sudden in effect. I definitely do badly with salt if I keep on using it.

[TylerDurden]

You never mentioned how you made up your zero-carb affair - and what pray was your feeling of being dehydrated (I do not have to urinat shortly after - but this may be the ionized concoction)? What was your raw paleo answer to not feeling miserably dehydrated?

It is brain taking...

I simply did all the right things re eating plenty of raw animal fat etc., during my 2(or 3?0 raw zero-carb trials. As regards the dehydration, it does sound strange given my huge water-intake, but I was suffering in all sorts of different ways, so my body was clearly telling me to back off. It was raw organic fruit which did the trick, ultimately. Same goes for  raw dairy, by the way - it also never quenched my thirst, during the 2 experiments when I tried it again to see if I'd become immune to raw dairy like some primal dieters pretended to claim.

[yon yonson]

Re salt:- I tend to get a sort of toxic minor shock in my mouth when I eat more than incredibly minute amounts of salt, a bit  like what I now sometimes  experience after eating too much  raw honeycomb, but much sharper and sudden in effect. I definitely do badly with salt if I keep on using it.

i actually tried eating a pinch of salt with my beef yesterday (haven't had any salt in at least 4 months) and i did notice that my tongue went kind of numb. not completely numb but i could definitely notice something different. no other problems though. anyone else experience this? also, i seem to have lost the taste for salt; it didn't taste nearly as good as when i eat beef alone

[Raw Kyle]

My point was simply that it's a strange argument to say that we need external chloride to store in our flesh and we cannot get this salt from eating flesh of animals who have the same requirements of chloride storage.

But ya there is no blood on sold meat. Anything left is just a little bit of blood watered down by lymph fluid.

I'm just pointing out that if you could actually eat the whole animal there would be no need for external salt supplementation.

[Satya]

One last thing: People who swim/surf in the ocean are absorbing sea salt through their semi permeable skin.  Those folks may not need added salt.  Also, those of us who are island dwellers by ancestry, yet landlocked presently may need more salt, just as we need more iodine, as that is what we have adapted to.  Seaweed and fish have salts in them.  To each his own on this, just like zero carb, I say.

[JaX]

I simply did all the right things re eating plenty of raw animal fat etc., during my 2(or 3?0 raw zero-carb trials. As regards the dehydration, it does sound strange given my huge water-intake, but I was suffering in all sorts of different ways, so my body was clearly telling me to back off. It was raw organic fruit which did the trick, ultimately. Same goes for  raw dairy, by the way - it also never quenched my thrist, during the 2 experiments when I tried it again to see if I'd become immune to raw dairy like some primal dieters pretended to claim.

I find it that fruits especially those high in sugar dehydrate me a lot.
When I'm very low in carbs I usually drink very little. But there has to be a balance between protein/fat. Too much or too little fat makes me very thirsty after a meat meal.

How many carbs do you need per day to avoid these bad effects? Do you just eat 1-2 pieces of fruit+meat/organs daily or do you also eat raw vegetables?

The occasional days when you eat no carbs, do you immediately feel some bad effects or does it take longer on zero carb before you become dehydrated etc (btw is dehydration the only problem you run into on ZC?)