Green Pastures FCLO could be sham

[Satya]

Hi, it's me.  Been awhile.  I have been off all forums for some time as I have been busy.  I am eating some raw, and have been thinking lately how it always makes me feel best to eat mostly rvaf... and have visited here, but did not get off my intentions to come back until now.  This is important.

A good friend of mine forwarded this apparently damning information about Green Pastures as well as WAPF's apparent desire to suppress the facts in order to not hurt the owner of Green Pastures.  The article is from Dr. Kaayla Daniel, a long time WAPF contributor and (maybe former?) VP of WAPF.  She had independent labs test the oil and found that the oil is not even from cod, and it only gets worse.  I realize that some here would not flinch at eating rotting flesh, so maybe that part of the report won't be such a big deal.  But when a product is advertised as one thing to people...well, people have the right to know what they are buying. 

I guess I cannot post links since I am new.  Go to drkaayladaniel dot com and find the pdf file she has on site.  You may have to give first name and email to get it.  It is an orange image with a fish in a bottle entitled Hook, Line and Stinker!...

I bought 2-3 bottles of this Blue Ice fclo over the years, and I never did get through half of it any one time before throwing it out.  It never sat right with me as it is processed and made me feel burpy and gross for some hours afterwards.  Glad I followed my gut and intuition.  I know some people are force feeding this on their kids, and I know of one person who may have been adversely affected by taking it long term.  Let the buyer beware.

Thanks for having me back and I shall look forward to positive contributions over time.  Peace.

[sabertooth]

Yeah I've tried different cod liver oils, and even have fed some to my children, but they never sat right with me either, and almost all the ones I have seen on the market are processed and contain preservatives( which are labeled as vitamin E) Hardly paleo....

If your into the fatty fish thing, just buy whole fish and eat the livers raw, along with everything else.

[TylerDurden]

Welcome back, Satya!

I never liked any kind of processed supplements, however raw they were claimed to be. I got a nasty reaction to some raw coconut oil, and got no benefits from Dr Ron's supposedly "raw" thyroid supplements. It is better to get hold of the genuine raw ingredient but the wholesalers make it very difficult to do so.

[dariorpl]

Anyone selling actual healthy raw supplements would be instantly put out of business by lawsuits and regulatory compliance type schemes where they just close down their business and confiscate all their products.

[Satya]

I agree that whole foods are always the best choice.  I always come back to that conclusion no matter what processed food fad comes along.

The list of organ/offal foods I can get in the US just keeps decreasing.  Even direct from the farm.  It seems I may have to raise animals myself or hunt them to get brains, sweetbreads (thymus or pancreas), thyroid, etc.  Tongue, heart, liver and kidneys are all available.  Guess I should be thankful for that, anyway.

[PaleoPhil]

Welcome back, Satya, and thanks for the heads up. I hadn't used any of that RFCLO for quite a while and wasn't planning on ever buying any more, but unfortunately my sister recently persuaded me to go in with her and some other folks to buy a bottle so they could all get a combined volume discount. Figures. I'll warn her.

My vitamin D level was very low on a mostly-raw VLC Paleo diet and then I got it up to within the normal range after trying a different D3 supplement and while eating more prebiotic foods and kefir, but just barely. Any suggestions on what else to do for low vitamin D? I started using a vitamin D skin cream, hoping I won't need as much oral supplementation, but I wonder if that will really be enough. Dietary resistant starch is thought to help (for ex: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25165393). If so, then maybe I eventually won't need to take supplements. I prefer whole foods too and would like not to have to take any oral supplements, which has always been my goal.

Disappointing that even Dr. Ron, who I learned about after he was highly touted in this forum, was hoodwinked [if K. Daniel's report is accurate]. Goes to show that one [may be] rolling the dice with even allegedly "raw" supplements like the Green Pastures products.

Organ meats have also been becoming increasingly expensive and scarce in my area too--even tongue, heart, liver and kidneys. Hardly any of decent quality left any more in any of the area markets or farmers markets, and the prices of many muscle meats, seafood, eggs and other foods have also been rising. Now the cafeteria at work is saying that there's an egg shortage and they will be less common on the menus.

For some reason, chicken meat dropped in price recently. A rare exception. Could be a fluke. I normally don't buy much in the way of chicken, but the price was hard to resist.

...I never liked any kind of processed supplements, however raw they were claimed to be. I got a nasty reaction to some raw coconut oil, and got no benefits from Dr Ron's supposedly "raw" thyroid supplements. It is better to get hold of the genuine raw ingredient but the wholesalers make it very difficult to do so.

What raw fermented CLO food were you referring to with this:

...the only so-called  "supplements" I accept are raw and unprocessed, like the raw royal jelly and the raw, fermented cod liver oil. The very fact that they are not processed makes them a "food" not a "supplement".Also, technically speaking, I don't "need" them as such, I only use them, because, every now and then, I'm forced to eat/drink unpleasant non-rawpalaeo stuff and the cod liver oil makes up for that. http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg18883/#msg18883

Is there a better one than the Green Pastures Blue Ice product? The Green Pastures scandal and past honey scandals make one wonder if even "raw royal jelly" is truly raw or even royal jelly. I never noticed any clear benefit from either (though my vitamin D level wasn't tested while I was trying the RFCLO--only after--so I don't know for sure whether it had any effect on that).

[cherimoya_kid]

Anyone selling actual healthy raw supplements would be instantly put out of business by lawsuits and regulatory compliance type schemes where they just close down their business and confiscate all their products.

 I, as well as several other people here, have has good results with certain supplements, like vitamin D and various mineral supplements like bone meal, Terramin clay, P5P, and others.

[TylerDurden]

I did indeed use the green pastures raw cod liver oil for a time before I discarded it as it was not as useful as I had thought.


I once tried an authentic raw royal jelly, bought in the UK,  that had to be stored in the fridge and eaten soonest. It tasted horrible(I am sure that if it had been processed even slightly, it would have tasted nice) and did not seem to have much of an effect. Ever since then, I have grave doubts about superfoods and only care if the food I eat is raw and from a wild animal of some sort.

[PaleoPhil]

I, as well as several other people here, have has good results with certain supplements, like vitamin D and various mineral supplements like bone meal, Terramin clay, P5P, and others.

What do you use for vitamin D? Do you use the clay internally, externally, or both?

I have had good results with external clays and had pretty good results with P5P, though it became less of a factor over time, which seems to happen with so many therapeutics. I still use it, but less frequently, which was my goal anyway, and maybe I just need it less.

A D3 supplement did apparently raise my vit D levels, but I'm concerned about the reported risks of oral vitamin D, although the doses I take are considered safe.

I did indeed use the green pastures raw cod liver oil for a time before I discarded it as it was not as useful as I had thought.

I once tried an authentic raw royal jelly, bought in the UK,  that had to be stored in the fridge and eaten soonest. It tasted horrible(I am sure that if it had been processed even slightly, it would have tasted nice) and did not seem to have much of an effect. Ever since then, I have grave doubts about superfoods and only care if the food I eat is raw and from a wild animal of some sort.

Check, I probably either forgot or missed your update on that because I don't read all the threads.

I think you were one of the folks that interested me in Dr. Ron's, as you seemed to have high standards, though I haven't bought anything in a while now. What's your opinion of his operation now?

[PaleoPhil]

Here's Green Pastures' response to Dr. Kaayla Daniel's critique:

http://www.greenpasture.org/fermented-cod-liver-oil-butter-oil-vitamin-d-vitamin-a/response-to-questions-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil

[jessica]

theres a huge discussion on wapf here in town about rancid fats now.  i just want to tell them all to just eat raw and aged animal foods and dont worry about it, its all those other ferments and beans adn grains and additions to the diet that are causing disbiosis in the guts leading to inflammation...it might actually go over well here, i got one guy eating on raw and aged meats, hes like 60 and a wood worker and also hosts a local television show that promotes ethics in politics(LOL! at the thought) through activism and also consciousness involving the environment and health issues, maybe i can raise a stink about raw meats and health be the next sabertooth....

[cherimoya_kid]

What do you use for vitamin D? Do you use the clay internally, externally, or both?

I have had good results with external clays and had pretty good results with P5P, though it became less of a factor over time, which seems to happen with so many therapeutics. I still use it, but less frequently, which was my goal anyway, and maybe I just need it less.

A D3 supplement did apparently raise my vit D levels, but I'm concerned about the reported risks of oral vitamin D, although the doses I take are considered safe.
Check, I probably either forgot or missed your update on that because I don't read all the threads.

I think you were one of the folks that interested me in Dr. Ron's, as you seemed to have high standards, though I haven't bought anything in a while now. What's your opinion of his operation now?

I use the Now brand vitamin D, and I use the Terramin clay internally.

[goodsamaritan]

For the record, I think their products helped with my boy's recovery 3 years ago.

[TylerDurden]

I think you were one of the folks that interested me in Dr. Ron's, as you seemed to have high standards, though I haven't bought anything in a while now. What's your opinion of his operation now?

He had a cheapish operation in that postal delivery to the US mainland was very cheap but he arrogantly insisted on sending everything international by the most expensive option possible and I was also hit by import taxes as the UK government became ever more vigilant. One of the things that the UK government has always been worried about is that, technically speaking, UK goods have about the same price in pounds sterling as the equivalent US goods have, so that it makes more sense for UK customers to buy from the US, but UK customs deliberately watch out and tax any incoming goods. US companies really ought to send their products internationally  in anonymous brown paper parcels as though sending them to a friend.

[dariorpl]

I, as well as several other people here, have has good results with certain supplements, like vitamin D and various mineral supplements like bone meal, Terramin clay, P5P, and others.

Clay is not a supplement, it's a substance found in it's original form and not something minimally present in a natural substance and then extracted through heat and solvents, like the others.

Maybe the beneficial results you attribute to supplements was just the toxicity from them stopping your body from being able to detoxify.

I used to take a lot of vitamin C supplements, and it would all but stop me from having the very lasting colds and flus I was used to. However, those colds and flus were a way for my body to get rid of toxins. So now, after taking it for 7 years, and only having stopped for the last 8 months, I have a lot of catchup to do. I not only have all the toxins that I wasn't able to eliminate through regular colds and flus, but I also have to deal with the toxicity from the vitamin C itself, plus the stuff it came with in it's various forms (talc, sodium bicarbonate, sugar, and several others.

[Satya]

EPA and DHA are polyunsaturated oils, and these types of oils are highly unstable and go rancid in the presence of heat, light and oxygen.  (Inuit buried fish and they had natural refrigeration.)  I think in the case of fish oils, it is far better to get them fresh from the sea and eat the product whole with all the other goodies that come from the unadulterated food.  Damaged EPA and DHA are not very good for the human brain.  Even Weston Price knew about the rancidity problem.  From his book, chapter 16 on the journey to forever site:

When fish oils including cod liver oils are given in too large doses to some patients they experience quite definite symptoms of depression. The available evidence indicates that fish oils that have been exposed to the air may develop toxic substances.
...
Also that overdosing with cod liver oil and other fish oils can be definitely detrimental. When packages of cod liver oil are purchased from the trade the material should be received in full containers not exposed to air and when opened should be transferred to small units so it is not progressively oxidized during the period of its use.

Interesting that the Green Pasture rebuttal has in it a new two year shelf life.  Of course, that would have to be for the unopened product, because as a liquid, polyunsaturated oils go bad fast when opened.  And a rat assay for vitamin D testing?  I have been out of the loop, but that seems a pretty indirect way to measure things.

Price did use the cod liver oil for people with serious problems.  It was not an everyday dose thing for all people, which is what the WAPF has been pushing.  I am a former chapter leader, and I have seen first hand the kind of play on Price's work that goes on there over the course of some years.  For Dr. Daniel, who is the current VP of WAPF, to come out against these types of practices, well, I think there must be something to it, as she has nothing to gain from this...that I can tell.  This is very similar to what made me cut ties with them years ago.  Sally Fallon Morrell knew a ranch was using orange sludge from the FL juice industry in "grassfed" ruminant products, but she left the ranch on their site as a traditional ranch that sold grassfed foods.  Her biases overshadow the professionalism that they need to exhibit, imho.

[Satya]

Clay is not a supplement, it's a substance found in it's original form and not something minimally present in a natural substance and then extracted through heat and solvents, like the others.

Maybe the beneficial results you attribute to supplements was just the toxicity from them stopping your body from being able to detoxify.

I used to take a lot of vitamin C supplements, and it would all but stop me from having the very lasting colds and flus I was used to. However, those colds and flus were a way for my body to get rid of toxins. So now, after taking it for 7 years, and only having stopped for the last 8 months, I have a lot of catchup to do. I not only have all the toxins that I wasn't able to eliminate through regular colds and flus, but I also have to deal with the toxicity from the vitamin C itself, plus the stuff it came with in it's various forms (talc, sodium bicarbonate, sugar, and several others.

I agree that clay is food.  I haven't eaten it much, but I use it topically for skin.  Is there a good brand?  And for that matter, is there a good alternative brand to Green Pasture FCLO for people who feel the need to supplement with it?  I know some brands put synthetic vitamins in.  Price Pottenger has a clo history, fwiw.

blog.ppnf.org/cod-liver-oil-a-historical-perspective/

Vitamin C does indeed kill viruses.  And yes, the body can fight off viruses.  But what about something like ebola?  And also, what about the fact that most plants and animals can synthesize vitamin c themselves.  Only a few mammals have lost that evolutionary advantage, and we happen to be among them.  So I tend to think that might be one where supplements might come in handy.  Rosehips are really high in vit c, so it's not like commercial pills are the only choice.  Might be important for more carnivorous eaters.  They often say other predators don't need plants, but those other predators also synthesize it themselves, unlike us.

[PaleoPhil]

Satya, what if anything do you suggest for people with vitamin D levels well below the normal range for whom available sunlight and whole seafood is insufficient? What's your opinion on the new topical vitamin D products that claim to be safer than oral supplements? I didn't "feel a need" to take vitamin D, but my healthcare provider did when she saw my lab report. Thanks in advance.

[Satya]

Satya, what if anything do you suggest for people with vitamin D levels well below the normal range for whom available sunlight and whole seafood is insufficient? What's your opinion on the new topical vitamin D products that claim to be safer than oral supplements? I didn't "feel a need" to take vitamin D, but my healthcare provider did when she saw my lab report. Thanks in advance.

Hi Phil.  First off, as you may remember, I try to avoid making specific recommendations to people about specific things unless they are under my care and it is within my scope of practice.  Also, I think we all have different values and comfort levels about what we put into or onto our bodies, and that makes these forums so full of debate and opportunity for learning new perspectives.  That said, I have a very good local friend who has been into traditional foods for several years and is a nutritional therapist.  I will see her this week and will ask her about what she recommends, as she is able to do this sort of research and stays on top of these things more than I can right now.  She is the one who told me about GP FCLO, and she is very strict about what she eats and takes.

One thing I will note is the idea that available sunlight is insufficient for you.  This is true for the months of Nov-Feb above 37° N or about May-Aug below 37° S lat.  Now, it is true that a 70 year old will have the ability to produce only ~25% of the sunlight as a 20 yo (all other things such as skin tone, location etc being equal).  But that ability may still be more than sufficient if you get your ass outside in the middle of the day ~10am-3pm (of course, I don't think you are 70 yo yet either). I do believe that you reside above 40 degrees N latitude, so now is the time to make that appointment with the sun a regular "supplement" to your life.  Marine life is also a good source of vitamin d, as you mention.  I realize it is easier to pop a pill.  And it may even be necessary in some cases to do so to get levels up.  I know nothing about the topical supplements of vitamin d, as I have had a busy summer training clients (sometimes in the middle of the day outside when it is an athlete).  But really, how much of an effort have you made to try and get sun, which is probably by far the best source available*?  How many other good effects does direct sunlight have on us of which we are still unaware?

Anyway, I will get back with you on a recommendation by the weekend.  And all facts posted here from this link, which I may not be able to post in its entirety as I am still only a forager here.

* ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/6/1678S.full

Men and women in bathing suits who were exposed to a 1-MED dose of UVB radiation exhibited increases in blood concentrations of vitamin D that were equivalent to those observed with doses of 10 000-20 000 IU of vitamin D (2, 22, 26). Therefore, 1 MED is equivalent to ?10-50 times the recommended adequate intakes, which are 200, 400, and 600 IU for children and adults <50 y, 51-70 y, and ?71 y of age, respectively (2, 22, 26, 27). Studies reported that exposure of ?20% of the body's surface to either direct sunlight or tanning bed radiation was effective in increasing blood concentrations of vitamin D3 and 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 [25(OH)D3] among both young adults and older adults (28–33). Indeed, Chuck et al (33) suggested that the use of UVB lamps in nursing homes in Great Britain was the most effective means of maintaining blood concentrations of 25(OH)D. There appears to be a benefit of higher blood concentrations of 25(OH)D for bone health, because the bone density of teenagers and adults was directly related to their 25(OH)D concentrations (30, 32–35). We found that tanners in Boston had 25(OH)D concentrations (?100 nmol/L) that were >150% higher than those of nontanners (?40 nmol/L) at the end of the winter. Furthermore, the average bone density of the tanners was greater than that of the nontanners (32).

PS.  I do not like the idea of tanning beds and would not use them.  Maybe it's easy for me to say that at 32° N

[Projectile Vomit]

This is an interesting ordeal. I'm a current WAPF chapter leader, and received an email from the foundation yesterday about this exploding controversy. Not surprisingly, the foundation has come out strongly in favor of their long-time position that CLO is good and Green Pastures makes a good product. I suspect there's a sponsorship on the line and the need to maintain that sponsorship is driving WAPF's decisions. I just downloaded KDaniel's report and will read it through if I have time. I find the fact that she wrote the report compelling, as she co-authored Nourishing Broths with Sally just last year so for her to come out against Green Pastures like this will probably hurt her relationship with her co-author and with the foundation more generally. Folks can read a response to allegations against Green Pasture products in this press release from earlier this year: Concerns About Fermented Cod Liver Oil. I haven't bought or used Green Pasture products in years, and have no particular desire to.

[Satya]

Thanks for your insight, Eric.  I bet you are right about a sponsorship.

[dariorpl]

I agree that clay is food.  I haven't eaten it much, but I use it topically for skin.  Is there a good brand? 

AV swore by terramin clay, because it doesn't come from volcanic activity (and so doesn't have many toxic metals), and because it's sun-dried (and so isn't heated to the point where most of it's uses are gone). If I was going to try one, it'd be that one. It's really expensive tho. Especially if you use it copiously for baths as well as eating, as he recommends. In any case, I remain unconvinced. AV says plants eat rock, we don't eat rock, and then says go eat clay. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I don't know. I do know that herbivores in the wild will eat it to neutralize poisons in the leafy greens and other vegetation they eat. So I'm not opposed to it, and I can see how it could make sense in our toxic environment.

I haven't tried it because it's pretty much impossible to get it where I live, since all imports are basically illegal. I have to find the right guy who will get it for me for bribes, it'd cost like 3 times what it already costs which is really high, and I'm never sure I'll get it. Also I'm worried about them doing all kinds of radioactive scans during shipping to make sure there's no weapons or anything inside. And they may refuse to let it through even with bribes if they don't know what it is and it could be drugs.

Vitamin C does indeed kill viruses.  And yes, the body can fight off viruses.  But what about something like ebola?  And also, what about the fact that most plants and animals can synthesize vitamin c themselves.  Only a few mammals have lost that evolutionary advantage, and we happen to be among them.  So I tend to think that might be one where supplements might come in handy.  Rosehips are really high in vit c, so it's not like commercial pills are the only choice.  Might be important for more carnivorous eaters.  They often say other predators don't need plants, but those other predators also synthesize it themselves, unlike us.

As per AV's views, I don't believe viruses are a problem. They're not alive, and he believed that our body actually creates them at will in order to detoxify something that cannot be detoxified in any other way. And so if vitamin C destroys them, it's impairing a cleansing process of the body and only making us more unhealthy. Also, I don't think vitamin C supplementation has anything to do with the vitamin C in a natural plant food. And there's been studies that show that people who eat more meat require less vitamin C. I would guess that's only more so for those of us who eat meat in it's natural form.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks Satya and Eric. Good to have two knowledgeable and bright people looking into the topic.


I hear you, Satya. I won’t blame you if I try something you write positively about and it doesn’t work for me. I’ll take responsibility for my own actions. I know, that’s pretty rare nowadays.

I work in a windowless office near the highest latitudes of the USA and my PA said that almost none of her patients have the minimum recommended vitamin D without supplementation. I read somewhere that during much of the winter season that sunlight doesn’t do diddly up here for vit D. So I don’t think sunlight alone is going to do the trick for me. I think many people would love to be able to get all the vitamin D they need from sunlight and unprocessed whole foods, but it’s not that easy in the modern northern world. I don’t know anyone who takes vitamin D supplements just because they want to be reductionist.

Coincidentally, I have indeed been getting more sun recently. The weather cooperated pretty nicely this summer. I’m also curious to put my skin to the test and see how easily I burn. Years ago I burned extremely easily, so that anything more than a half hour in strong sun was risky. My skin has been increasingly less prone to burning since then and heals more quickly. Red clay is supposed to help, so I’ve been curious to see how well I do since I’ve been following Ingrid’s wonderful tip to use red clay (can’t thank her enough for that). So far, so good. I still quickly lose what little color I get, though. Ugh.

The amount of supplementing I did was actually well below what the PA recommended, and I nonetheless was able to nearly double my level and reach the bottom of the normal range, so maybe the alleged vit D benefit from prebiotic and probiotic foods is working some for me. Too soon to tell and too many confounding variables, though, and I wasn't yet up to what are considered really good levels on my last test. I doubt it's a good idea to push it to 70-100 via supplements like some people do, but I suspect that around 30 is still too low, especially given the autoimmunity in my personal and family history.

I’ve also read that one doesn’t need as much vit D once the levels get up above a certain point. I’m hoping that’s true too.

[Satya]

Also, I don't think vitamin C supplementation has anything to do with the vitamin C in a natural plant food. And there's been studies that show that people who eat more meat require less vitamin C. I would guess that's only more so for those of us who eat meat in it's natural form.

I had read that too, that if you don't eat a lot of carbs, vitamin c is not as necessary.  However, that was not my personal experience.  I think my requirements remained the same, but I got less shunning most plant foods.  I ended up getting more viruses in winter months after about 2 years on mostly meat (and a good portion of that raw, although I did eat bone broths and some cooked meat).  Then when I increased the plant foods back, also supplementing with c sometimes in winters, I had no recurrence of the viruses.  But that is me, and I think things vary between people. 

I do think that herbs are underestimated as a source for vitamins and minerals.  They are really strongly flavored, thus tend to be used in smaller amounts.  But they can add quite a bit of nutrition, and might be a good option for people eating mostly meats.  Dill on raw fish, parsley and such in meats.

I’ve also read that one doesn’t need as much vit D once the levels get up above a certain point. I’m hoping that’s true too.

That would make sense since we store vitamin D.  So if you are able to get levels up from dosing in sun and with other sources, you may be fine come winter.  Then go back out in spring.  It's worked for centuries before industrialization.

Have not heard about the red clay.  Interesting. 

And thank you for thinking for yourself, Phil. 

[Satya]

My NTP, GAPS friend recommends Apex Energetics K87 Liqua-D™ as it is made with MCT oil as a carrier and is thus less prone to rancidity.  They have some formulas in CLO too.  She recommends waiting until decently cool weather to order...probably more of a concern here in Texas.