Green Pastures FCLO could be sham

[kalo]

theres a huge discussion on wapf here in town about rancid fats now.  i just want to tell them all to just eat raw and aged animal foods and dont worry about it, its all those other ferments and beans adn grains and additions to the diet that are causing disbiosis in the guts leading to inflammation.

Jessica, I have been doing better with veggies but want to ferment them. Obviously meat is unrivaled but I feel like sauerkraut is less inflammatory than raw cabbage..

[ys]

Frozen Norwegian mackerel is abundant at Asian markets here in Midwest.
I think it is way better than anything bottled.

[PaleoPhil]

My NTP, GAPS friend recommends Apex Energetics K87 Liqua-D™ as it is made with MCT oil as a carrier and is thus less prone to rancidity.  They have some formulas in CLO too.  She recommends waiting until decently cool weather to order...probably more of a concern here in Texas.

Thanks Satya! I love your desire to share and help others the best you can.

Here are a couple more responses that have come out. I'm not necessarily endorsing these. I don't know enough to take a position and in general I prefer sharing info and letting folks decide for themselves.

Chris Masterjohn: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2015/08/weighing-in-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil.html

Questions and Answers About Fermented Cod Liver Oil (FCLO)
Posted on August 28, 2015 by Sally Fallon Morell
http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/questions-and-answers-about-fermented-cod-liver-oil-fclo

[Projectile Vomit]

Not sure how all of this is going to shake out. The WAPF comments, which I received from Sally the day they were released on the website, acknowledges receiving over $20K from Green Pastures. They claim that the money is such a small portion of their budget that it doesn't matter, but if that's true then why take it in the first place? I'm not in a good position to comment on the validity of Daniel's report, but I suspect it's going to hurt Green Pastures whether it's true or not at this point.

[cherimoya_kid]

Vegetable fats in cod liver oil aren't going to impress the WAP followers, for sure. He better have a good explanation, or it's going to be a hard candy Christmas at his house this year.

[Satya]

Chris Masterjohn: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2015/08/weighing-in-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil.html

Thanks, Phil.  I was on the Native Nutrition yahoo group with Chris from 2004-I dunno when I left.  But when I get a chance to read this blog post, I will report back, because it seems he is making reference to that group, whose posts anyone can read, iirc.

On a quick skim, I do see a conflict of interest, which these folks will try and distance themselves from.  But I don't think so.  When there's money involved, it clouds clear thinking.  That is why serious journals require a conflict of interest disclosure for studies in the first place.  It's unethical to take money from a manufacturer and then claim that their product is great based on the "science."  Last I recall, the WAPF was trying to establish a lab to test these things themselves in an unbiased way.  Now it appears the hand is in the cookie jar.  But again, this is based on skimming, so I will go read before I comment more.

Vegetable fats in cod liver oil aren't going to impress the WAP followers, for sure. He better have a good explanation, or it's going to be a hard candy Christmas at his house this year.

The damage is done, I agree.

And don't most traditional cultures eat liver as fresh and raw as possible?

[cherimoya_kid]

I don't know if liver is always eaten fresh or not. I've fermented it, and found it to be OK, as long as it stays wet with its blood.

What was your username on the Native Nutrition group? I was cherimoya kid there too, but I left in 2007 due to ridiculous bias against raw food.

[PaleoPhil]

And don't most traditional cultures eat liver as fresh and raw as possible?

Often fresh and raw, yes, and the Eskimos reportedly also ate fermented cod livers:

> Tomcod liver (Uukkat tinuich) is "excellent ... in the fall when the tomcod "are eating well."

tinaulik: cooled cooked tomcode livers plus berries mashed together. The liver is cooled before mashing so as not to lose the precious liver oil.

> traditionally, during periods of food shortage, every drop of this [tomcod] liver oil was saved because it is exceptionally high in the fat-soluable vitamins A, E, and especially D, which are stored in the body and are crucial for maintaining good health through the long winter. The old Ieupiat didn’t name the vitamins but they knew intuitively that fish livers were important for health.

Anore Jones, Iqaluich Nigiñaqtuat, Fish That We Eat http://alaska.fws.gov/asm/pdf/fisheries/reports/02-023final.pdf

Of course, that doesn't guarantee it's healthy, but it does call into question the notion that it's lethal or extremely toxic in whatever doses they allegedly ate them, and whether the Green Pastures products are really of the same or better quality is of course a question.

The Eskimos also reportedly ate stink (fish) heads, stink (walrus) flipper, "fermented" seal oil (meaning the non-oil parts are consumed by microbes, leaving the concentrated oil) and other fermented sea foods. Of course, most moderners are greatly put off by these traditional foods and consider them "rotten"/"spoiled", so it's not likely to persuade any significant number of them. The coastal Chukchi also eat at least fermented walrus.

Maybe it will turn out that these Arctic/Sub-Arctic foods are only beneficial in super-cold temperatures and when strong sunlight is scarce or something.

[cherimoya_kid]

Phil, I definitely find I can eat a lot more of the high fish in cold weather. It doesn't attract me nearly as much in summer heat.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks, Phil.  I was on the Native Nutrition yahoo group with Chris from 2004-I dunno when I left.

Looks like it's nearly dead, unfortunately.

One good thing about the controversy is that Chris finally got around to addressing more fully the issue of the vit. D in CLO and fatty fish in general being not the highly-touted D3, but he apparently thinks it's good anyway. Will need to read up more on that when I get a chance.

[cherimoya_kid]

Even good groups like that one eventually die off. This one has definitely seen a downturn.

[Satya]

I wonder if it was the NSA surveillance in the US that made many forums die down.  Seems to have coincided with that.  I figure they know who I am so why worry? 

Native Nutrition also had a spinoff group called NT politics, where things that got too heated were discussed.  Fun times.

I think this is just another example of a long line of examples where WAPF has let personal biases cloud the science and also exactly what Price found.  They stray from his recommendations, and he never recommended all people take clo.  Breastfeeding not being encouraged because SFM couldn't breastfeed, sourdough being ok for celiacs, pushing dairy as essential for all when only 2 of 12 tribes were shown to have consumed any dairy (which I bitched about here years ago, btw) and other examples over the years made me give up on them. 

I think this whole stinky mess will not bode well for them or GP.  People are lining up, and the ones that are supporting WAPF appear to be doing so out of loyalty to authority figures within the organization and not because GP has demonstrated that they offer a good product.  How many people are just going to quietly discontinue rather than make a fuss?  I know people who are very long term supporters who are cancelling plans to go to WAPF annual conference over this.  I mean, why won't GP at least divulge their source for the livers?  Don't most of us in traditional foods circles want to know the source of our foods?  Don't we try and get local foods, wild instead of farmed marine foods, etc?

[Projectile Vomit]

I agree with you Satya, I think this controversy will hurt both WAPF and Green Pastures. I will probably send out my local chapter's monthly email update this week, and will include links to Daniels' report as well as Masterjohn's and Sally's rebuttals. I half expect to get an irate email from Sally for even acknowledging Daniels' report.

[RogueFarmer]

I just don't think people in our industry should be slinging shit at each other. I feel WAPF has been guilty of this as well.

[Projectile Vomit]

What 'industry' are you talking about RF?

[PaleoPhil]

My NTP, GAPS friend recommends Apex Energetics K87 Liqua-D™ as it is made with MCT oil as a carrier and is thus less prone to rancidity.  They have some formulas in CLO too.  She recommends waiting until decently cool weather to order...probably more of a concern here in Texas.

That product is much like the one I was using, which also contains MCT oil, before my sister got me to buy another bottle of RFCLO. There was criticism in this forum of MCT and conventional CLO products because they are heated and refined. I think it was said that this makes them more toxic and less like a real natural whole food. It was folks in this forum that got me interested in trying RFCLO to begin with.

There seems to be a growing shift to using topical vitamin D in the ancestral community, though it's an even newer and thus less tried product. It's plausible that it would be safer and more like getting D from sunlight, but who knows.

This controversy should give a boost to Ray Peat and Peatarians, as they have long argued against CLO, fish oil, fatty fish and PUFAs in general.

[TylerDurden]

All this stuff is nonsense. Avoid Peat-inspired grainfed meats, avoid all processed foods, however "raw" they claim to be.


Hmm, I once tried the only genuine "raw" royal jelly in the UK that I could ever find. The stuff tasted disgusting like a sting in the mouth, which I found very encouraging, and the producers admitted that they could only sell small amounts at a time, with it being recommended to immediately store in the fridge after delivery to my door, and eaten soonest.It was bloody expensive and did not seem to have an immediate effect, thus justifying my scepticism as regards raw "superfoods".

[Projectile Vomit]

For those who are interested, David Gumpert has posted a series of well-done blog entries about this controversy over the past few weeks. They are:

• Simmering cod liver oil imbroglio heats up for WAPF conference (October 2014)
• Major falling out at WAPF over 'fermented' cod liver oil (August 22, 2015)
• Cod liver oil recriminations escalate (August 25, 2015)
• Playing with fire: Why WAPF's cod liver oil wounds won't heal soon (August 30, 2015)
• Straight poop on cod liver oil dosage (ready to be confused?) (September 3, 2015)
• What would Dr. Price do about FCLO mess? (September 8, 2015)
• As dissension mounts, WAPF warns chapter leaders: Toe the line on FCLO (September 10, 2015)

[cherimoya_kid]

Hmm. I understand that Sally wants the only available brand of fermented CLO to stay on the market, but it needs further testing before it can be recommended. And the possible presence of vegetable oils in it? That's concerning for sure.

Of course, the lack of funding for good nutritional research is the real problem. All this money and scientific ability in this country....and we're the sickest ones in the developed world. *sigh*

[jessica]

i think the issue people have with fclo is that fermentation produces hisatmines, and thats why that product seems kinda foul/bunk and irritating to people who are trying to heal their digestion and from nutritional deficiencies.  All of the dubiousness behind the business aspect and funding and shit makes me laugh.  People who gain notoriety are inherently greedy, you would be hard pressed to find someone who remains humble in any position of power these days, welcome to 2015.  This whole drama it has created is fucking silly to me too.  How peoples ideas of wapf are "shattered" ....LOFUCKINGL my friends...i guess no one is above being cult minded and wanting to put their total faith in something. 

[PaleoPhil]

What are people's vitamin D levels here? I'm hoping that it's possible to maintain good levels, once I achieve that, without supplements or fortified foods, even up here at northern latitudes.

All this stuff is nonsense. Avoid Peat-inspired grainfed meats, avoid all processed foods, however "raw" they claim to be.

Tyler, What do you meant by Peat-inspired grainfed meats? Does he advocate grainfed meats? Aren't they higher in the PUFAs that he warns against?


Eric, Thanks for the links. I noted in a forum in the past, I think it was Satya's defunct Dirty Carnivore forum, that the reported benefits for some from cod liver oils and other fish oils might be due to hormesis (benefits from small amounts of toxins--in other words, "the dose makes the poison", "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger," "no pain, no gain," ...), in which case small doses would be the way to go, rather than large, and this excerpt from one of your links supports that possibility:

“During this time period (late 1920s), Dr. Weston A. Price was conducting numerous animal studies with cod liver oil. The results showed that some types of the oil were very beneficial to immunity and proper physical and mental development, particularly in regard to phosphorus and calcium metabolism regulation (positively affecting bone, dental, blood and brain health). Yet he found that it could also cause great harm, especially when overused.   He was careful to note ‘some dangers that are not usually recognized or properly emphasized in the literature.’ “


Jessica, I definitely agree with not putting total faith in anyone/anything. Eric is a good example of someone who uses the WAPF as a helpful aid, rather than a cult. I hope they don't take him to task for it, and that some good will come out of the controversy.

[sabertooth]

This is why branding is so disastrous, once you make a product into a brand name then it takes on a life of its own.

Things like Spam, or Kentucky fried chicken when they first came out, as bad as we think them to be, were at one time, made of a lot better ingredients. But because of economic pressures compromises have to been made and this applies even to companies that market themselves as healthy.

There are also enormous pressures to maintain business as usual, and instead of changing the product  in accordance with new findings, many companies find it easier to deny the truth and keep trucking on.

In the case of FCLO it is reasonable to think that perhaps abandoning the fermentation process, as well as stopping the mixing of different kinds of oil together is a good starting point. In essence an entirely new and innovative product is needed to replace the old.

Imagine taking fresh cold pressed pure cod liver oil, and freezing it into does sized capsule. It would be a completely raw and unadulterated product, which would be much more in line with the original cod liver oils which where used as health tonics in the 18th century.

Of course being Raw, pure and unadulterated it would be extremely expensive, and perhaps not very marketable to the majority of people who are fearful of the "Raw".

[TylerDurden]

i think the issue people have with fclo is that fermentation produces hisatmines, and thats why that product seems kinda foul/bunk and irritating to people who are trying to heal their digestion and from nutritional deficiencies.  All of the dubiousness behind the business aspect and funding and shit makes me laugh.  People who gain notoriety are inherently greedy, you would be hard pressed to find someone who remains humble in any position of power these days, welcome to 2015.  This whole drama it has created is fucking silly to me too.  How peoples ideas of wapf are "shattered" ....LOFUCKINGL my friends...i guess no one is above being cult minded and wanting to put their total faith in something. 

This is why Max Stirner always stated that no individual should blindly put his trust in someone else, especially  groups. I always admire people like Eveheart et al who go the extra mile and personally visit the farm they buy from in order to verify that the animal is indeed properly grassfed  and raised right etc. I do not do that because I choose not to bother with a car and driving-licence, and I suspect, that, as a result, I have been often somewhat cheated as to what I thought I was buying. No wonder I mostly  try buying raw wild game/raw wildcaught seafood instead of 100% grassfed or raw organic fish-farmed seafood

[cherimoya_kid]

Wise words, all. Jessica, you make an excellent point about people in positions of notoriety and power.

[TylerDurden]

Tyler, What do you meant by Peat-inspired grainfed meats? Does he advocate grainfed meats? Aren't they higher in the PUFAs that he warns against?

I recall one extract by Ray Peat in which he attacked grassfed meats because of their higher omega-3 content, and instead promoted grainfed meats. I am sorry though as I cannot recall the exact place he wrote this, online.