Spelling nuisance

[TylerDurden]

I often make errors as I'm often pressed for time, but because I'm a stickler for perfect spelling(I used to win prizes at school for that), I correct my own errors as soon as I spot them in past posts. However, others also make such errors and I was wondering if it was considered OK/ethical for me to correct other peoples' spellings(without necessarily having to check with them each time)? Would people be up in arms about this? Any opinions welcome.

[lex_rooker]

Tyler,
I feel the same as you and I used to correct my errors as I ran across them.  However, I can no longer do this since we are not allowed to "modify" our entries after the fact.  The short window of opportunity to correct errors or reword something is almost useless.  I also used to occasionally update my charts and information in the first entry in my journal but this is no longer possible either.

Others have mentioned this annoyance as well.  Not sure what horrible evil we are protecting against, but I saw no evidence of abuse that would require removing such a useful tool.  Its been suggested that retaining the ability to modify after the fact could allow someone to remove entries or modify them beyond their orginal scope which could affect the context of the thread. 

My thoughts on this are that I could only modify my own entries, the pertenent information from an entry in a response is often "quoated" in the follow up entry which can't be modified by the original poster, and besides, this is a forum not the Nation Archives.

I have no objection to you correcting my spelling or errors in grammer, but would much prefer the return of the ability to modify my entries as I deem necessary.

Lex

[William]

I often make errors as I'm often pressed for time, but because I'm a stickler for perfect spelling(I used to win prizes at school for that), I correct my own errors as soon as I spot them in past posts. However, others also make such errors and I was wondering if it was considered OK/ethical for me to correct other peoples' spellings(without necessarily having to check with them each time)? Would people be up in arms about this? Any opinions welcome.

No.
However, I make no spelling errors, unlike the denizens of the next American country south if you hang the map north-side-up. Many typos, but I proofread.

[TylerDurden]

I see your point, Lex. GS does also make a good counter-point that people(Internet Trolls, basically) love deleting all their past posts either in order to make themselves seem less horrible to other members who like to view the archives, or to destroy entire threads by making them well-nigh incomprehensible to other members trying to follow a discussion(that happened on some other non-RAF-related forums I frequented in the past).

I think the problem is really the spell-checker. It was utterly useless when I last tried it many months ago. It seemed to be broken, or something. Of course, a spell-checker can only correct incorrect spelling, not a word like "an" written instead of "and" for example, but if it worked and people automatically used it prior to posting their entire post, then that would be a lot better.

I tend to agree that a longer time-period may be needed(such as 24 hours?. While I've come across trolls on other forums who have indeed deleted most of their own posts, this usually only happens after a prolonged discussion lasting several days.

[JaX]

I don't think you shold edit others peoples mistkes

Just increase the time people can edit their own posts and then if they want to edit their own mistakes they can.

It's a waste of your personal time, and what's the ultimate benefit? Unless we are speaking of some huge misunderstanding caused by spelling error, but even then you could just make the person aware of the mistake (by reply or PM)

[rafonly]

in the past, the software programer was talking about granting forum users a grace period

i do not know whether he's aware of the cultural connotation of grace period in a predominantly not highly religious practitioner, english speaking country

here's what my dictionary says on this:
2 (in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.
• a divinely given talent or blessing : the graces of the Holy Spirit.
• the condition or fact of being favored by someone : he fell from grace because of drug use at the Olympics.
3 (also grace period) a period officially allowed for payment of a sum due or for compliance with a law or condition, esp. an extended period granted as a special favor : another three days' grace.

[Satya]

If I can't have at least 8 hours to modify a post, I will stop posting here.  In which case, I may as well unsub.  It is so utterly annoying, and I feel like I am being treated like a child.  Charles allows indefinite edits.  It makes it so nice to be able to clarify thoughts, fix errors, etc.  There is just no way with my busy schedule that I post something, walk away, come back and I can't fix it.  It is probably the biggest reason why volume has gone down so much.  I, for one, totally hesitate posting on this forum now.

And I certainly don't want anyone else fixing spelling or grammar, especially from another country!  I am a big girl and I can tie my own shoes too.

[goodsamaritan]

Sure Satya, let's try 8 hours editing.

[Satya]

Thank you so much, GoodSamaritan!   

[lex_rooker]

I still don't understand why we can't return the ability for us to edit our own posts indefinitely.  I used to update the charts and other information in the first posting of my journal but can no longer do this.  Every other forum I participate in allows the owner of the post to edit any post they make at any time.

How could a troll cause much of a problem.  I would expect that if they are truly trolls, and they started a thread for some nefarious purpose or just to create controversy, then the fact that they deleted their entries would be a moot point as the whole thread would be worthless anyway - even if it was left intact.

I agree with Satya in that I feel that it is important to be able to clarify what I've written and this can take me several days as responses come in and areas where my thoughts are not clear are pointed out.  Producing clear and unambiguous written work is a dependent on constant review and editing.  Many people read my Journal and they are entitled to the best I have to offer.  If I'm no longer allowed to edit my own work to correct spelling, or clarify my thoughts, then I must also consider moving to a new home where the climate is more open.

I chose this forum as my home because of its openness to the free exchange of ideas.  It was also quite lively.  Over the past few months I've noticed the culture changing.  More rules, less openness, tighter control, and this seems to have lead to much less enthusiasm and participation.  It's just not as much fun to come here any more.

My 2 cents,

Lex

[Raw Kyle]

I haven't been following this closely but does it have anything to do with the spammer types that have been joining and posting recently?  I don't care for myself either way but if others prefer the ability to edit over some troll control than we should go with that.

[wodgina]

My spelling and grammar are pretty bad...I just write like a speak if it annoys anyone sorry.

[Satya]

I still don't understand why we can't return the ability for us to edit our own posts indefinitely.  I used to update the charts and other information in the first posting of my journal but can no longer do this.  Every other forum I participate in allows the owner of the post to edit any post they make at any time.

How could a troll cause much of a problem.  I would expect that if they are truly trolls, and they started a thread for some nefarious purpose or just to create controversy, then the fact that they deleted their entries would be a moot point as the whole thread would be worthless anyway - even if it was left intact.

Yeah, considering how much traffic this forum has received from Lex's journal alone, I think he should be able to update his stats whenever he wants.  And I think he has pretty well shot down the trolling reason for this denial of indefinite editing.

And really, while I post here, my content is my own.  In the past I have been approached by a moderator about posting my videos on youtube, or posting my words, recipes or images elsewhere.  That is flat out wrong; my words and images are my own and I do hold copyright to them, even if it is not explicitly stated.  If I wanted to post on youtube, I can bloody well do it myself.  The fact that I post on this forum may mean that my content remains here indefinitely, but no one has the right to redistribute it just because it is posted here.  And why is there this kind of control issue anyway?  Live and let live! 

If I post something and realize later that I have given more information than I intended, for whatever reason, shouldn't I have the right to change it?  If you are worried about removal of posts, can't you prevent that anyway?  I have to agree that I feel stifled by the tight control here, and I am sure it is hindering the free exchange of ideas. 

Thank you for your consideration.

[lex_rooker]

Satya,
I've gone back and forth on this a good bit with Tyler and I do undstand that even though we own our words, by putting them on this forum we have released them to the public domain and the truth is, anyone can link, copy, or do whatever they want with them without our knowledge or futher permission.  This may not be right but it is a fact. 

The other issue that I can sympathize with is keeping the integrity and continuity of the information intact so that posts and their repsones make sense.  I should not be allowed to make a statement that someone disagrees with and then I go back and remove or alter the orginal statement such that the following responses don't make sense or make the responder look bad.  I should be held accountable for the content I post.

I really would like to see at least a one week window to allow editing for clarification, but the truth is that I seldom do this and then only in my Journal.  The only time I would need longer than a week would be the annual update of my lab work in the fist entry of my journal.  Most of my edits for spelling and syntax are done within 24 hours or less.

An option that I've proposed to Tyler is to open the editing window to say 24 hours to allow next day review and correction of spelling and syntax errors.  Then for annual chart and lab updates, or where I determine that rewording of a post would trully be helpful, I could submit the new or updated information along with the Thread Name and Message Number to a Global Moderator who would review the request to assure it is appropriate and doesn't violate the spirit of the original post and the Moderator would then make the update.

This model would provide plenty of time for immedate corrections as well as a controlled formal process for those rare occasions where the updating of a post who's editing privlidges has expired would be helpful, all the while assuring continuity and integrity of the thread.

For me it is more a psychological thing where I can have the illusion that I do have some ability to modify my work as I see fit rather than one that I would actually use very much.

Lex

[Satya]

I've gone back and forth on this a good bit with Tyler and I do undstand that even though we own our words, by putting them on this forum we have released them to the public domain and the truth is, anyone can link, copy, or do whatever they want with them without our knowledge or futher permission.  This may not be right but it is a fact. 

Intellectual property law definitely covers the internet, and while people may copy and paste, it may not be necessarily be legal to do so.  SMF is in the US iirc, and they must comply with US copyright law.  Youtube deals with this all the time and removes copyrighted material from its site regularly, because if it doesn't, the owner of the intellectual property may sue.  So redistribution without written consent of any material that is copyrighted is technicaly a no no, but usually it is no big deal to either party.

[Raw Kyle]

I think the thing is that if you have, for example, a music video, and someone puts it on youtube, that is your property and you can have it taken off. But if you voluntarily post something on someone else's site, like this one, then that isn't your property. If you were posting things on your own website you paid for and someone copy and pasted it somewhere else to use for whatever reason, I could see the legal ground, but putting words on someone else's bandwidth does not seem like legal footing to me. I'm no lawyer but it seems to me there is a distinction there.

[lex_rooker]

I believe that you can post something to someone else's site and declare it Copyrighted but the key is that you must declare it so at the time it is released.  I could copyright my Jerky and Pemmican manuals, but to do so I must clearly state my copyright on the documents.  Back and forth converstations, written or verbal, are in the public domain unless otherwise stated.  Copyright is also rather limited in that it allows anyone to copy something for their own use as long as they don't attempt to profit from it.

I've found that the best approach for me is to assume or directly state that everything I post to the Internet, including my manuals, are free in the public domain, and then I don't have to worry about it.  I've found that it is much easier to not post something that I wish to keep control of rather than try to put the genie back in the bottle once it is released.  If I wanted more control of my Jerky and Pemmican manuals I would not post them to the Internet and instead only offer printed versions complete with Copyright notice.

I also make sure that I don't say or write anything that I don't want repeated because once it is on the Internet or in the public forum I must assume that everyone has access to it and I loose control.  Photography is similar in that I have the right to take pictures of anyone in public for my own personal use as long as I don't try to publish the pictures for a profit unless I have a signed release.

I think the bottom line is that things are far less private and you have fewer rights once you release something unless you specifically declare it Copyrighted at the moment of release.

Also, if I were running a forum or place of public discourse on the Internet, I would refuse to post and/or remove any Copyrighted material from my site as once it is posted I would have no ability to control or defend the Copyright of person making the post.  Anyone is free to access the information and do with it what they wish, and I for one would not want to be held responsible for Copyrighted material.

Lex

[Satya]

I believe that you can post something to someone else's site and declare it Copyrighted but the key is that you must declare it so at the time it is released.  I could copyright my Jerky and Pemmican manuals, but to do so I must clearly state my copyright on the documents.  Back and forth converstations, written or verbal, are in the public domain unless otherwise stated.  Copyright is also rather limited in that it allows anyone to copy something for their own use as long as they don't attempt to profit from it.

Yes yes!  That is the key.  That mayo video I had copyright notice on, yet some people think that since it is LINKED TO on the forum it is fair play.  Also, if I use an image tag instead of attaching a picture, then said image is never on this forum to begin with!!! Hello???  Just because someone "sees it here" does not mean it is part of this site. 

[Satya]

But if you voluntarily post something on someone else's site, like this one, then that isn't your property.

Because of technology, Kyle, it is not that simple.  If you see a picture of my cat in a post, yet that picture is not attached, therefore, not uploaded to this site, only linked by an image tag, then the picture you see is actually on MY SERVER and only visible here, never uploaded here.  IOW it's mine, all mine.  Does that make sense?  If not, go back and read some online intellectual property law. 

I always respect the copyright of others.  I even respect when there is no copyright, and I ask permission before any redistribution.  Young people think that because they can it's okay.  Ain't so.

[lex_rooker]

WOW!  Guess I hit a nerve.  Certainly didn't mean to offend you Satya.  I've been ripped off many times over the years - both patents and copyrights.  I followed all the rules naively believing that I was protected.  It really hurt when my lawyer told me it would cost many tens of thousands of dollars and several years to defend a patent and then there was no assurance I would win.  I found out that like padlocks, patents and copyrights only keep honest people honest.  Those that want to rip you off will do so regardless, and then you have to pay to defend yourself.  And even if you win, you won't get your legal fees back so most of us can't afford to fight.  The system sucks but it is the best we have. 

After years of frustration I finally found that the best place to hide my work was in plain sight by putting it in the public domain.  The big boys wouldn't touch it because of the "not invented here" syndrome and they found it difficult to pretend that their "team" came up with it independently. With the work in the public domain their competitors had access to the same information so it gave them no advantage.  Any fights would be between to deep pocket companies and I could choose sides and throw a wrench in the works by showing prior art - kinda cool actually.

Now I just let people copy and don't worry about it.  I'm the one with the creativity and I'll always be one step ahead with my next new idea while all the "copy cats" are doing last year's "best practices".  What I sold my clients was my creativity and my ability to be in front of the curve.  I made it clear that "Best Practice", by definition means "Mediocre".  The truth is that no one can steal what you do Satya.  Your value isn't in your style sheets, it's your creative ability to visualize and execute a total package that exceeds your clients expectations.  People can copy your code but they can't duplicate what sets you apart - your vision.

You may be right about Charles legal bent, but he may also understand that exceptional people are drawn to an open and free environment.  My guess is that he'd rather risk having to deal with the occasional problem child by governing with few rules, in an effort to attract the cream of the crop in creative talent full of excitement and new ideas.  When you lock things down with excessive control you drive the movers and shakers away and are left with nothing but an empty shell.

Our forum used to be active and exciting like Charles' forum, with many active and creative members and lots of visitors.  Sadly, we've driven many of them away.  But not to worry, we're locked down tight and secure against trolls!

Lex

[goodsamaritan]

My opinion on unlimited editing time is it is a disaster waiting to happen.
I have seen it several times with my customers.
Some long time member with a gazillion posts suddenly decides he wants out of the forum... he deletes each and every post he has ever made.  The forum makes no sense afterwards.

[TylerDurden]

My opinion on unlimited editing time is it is a disaster waiting to happen.
I have seen it several times with my customers.
Some long time member with a gazillion posts suddenly decides he wants out of the forum... he deletes each and every post he has ever made.  The forum makes no sense afterwards.

I agree. I've seen it happen on another discussion forum(not a RAF one). Since threads are a collaborative, not an individual, effort, it does seem inappropriate, vis-a-vis the  other posters in a thread, to allow mass deletion of all one's posts.

That said, I do think it's quite safe to allow 24(or maybe even 36 hours) for those who don't necessarily always log on the same time each day). The way I see it, any harm caused with such a delay would be so minimal that it wouldn't matter. Since most members seem to want enough time to edit  re spelling mistakes but hardly any are really interested in reediting posts older than a few days, that seems logical. Given the extreme rarity of people wanting to edit really old posts, anyone could simply e-mail a Moderator and ask them to post in any correction to months-old posts, such a request likely only happening 2-3 times a year at most. What do you think?

[Satya]

Lex, you did not offend me at all.  I am sorry that my general rant seemed to have been pointed at you.  In light of my general negativity, I had better take a break from posting here for at least a week.  See ya next time, if there is a next time for me here.

Please resume your regular, tightly controlled discussion.  Many forums have open editing that works beautifully, so your fears are totally unjustified.

Adieu.

[wodgina]

Whoa...

[Raw Kyle]

I guess I just don't take my posts that seriously. I probably would if I ever had gotten ripped off on a patent or something like lex talks about. I've said a lot of stuff I wouldn't agree with now on other forums but oh well, I just let the chips fall. Although it's nice to error on the side of freedom as well, freedom to change or take away your stuff. I think the main difference is how seriously people take forums, I've had people go off on me on a thread before and then delete it because it embarrassed them later, and then later they can claim that never happened in a separate argument. Oh well, let them do that if they want. Or let someone delete their posts, making threads nonsensical. Because in the end that person will not be taken seriously on the forum anymore. It's like, both situations, freedom to edit or not, can be abused and will be by people who are dishonest or whatever, so it almost doesn't matter. Honest good people will use it right and not rip people off or change their stuff around after the fact to make themselves look better, and dishonest people will do the opposite; similalarly trolls will always find a way in.