Marine life in world's oceans vanishing

[cherimoya_kid]

Thalidomide does not equal hydroponics. Surely you know this.

[TylerDurden]

Thalidomide does not equal hydroponics. Surely you know this.

Err, you did not actually counter my point, but never mind.


A quick check online shows that algae are a serious problem for hydroponics systems, as is the lack of soil bacteria and the cost is prohibitive:-

http://www.ehow.com/info_8581948_negative-effects-hydroponics.html


Lowering the cost will mostly always lead to a reduced quality, judging from many past examples...

Also, the assurance given that hydroponics is the same as regular plant-growth is as misleading as my father's claim that, since ascorbic acid was exactly the same chemically/nutritionally as vitamin C, that it was no different from vitamin C.

[cherimoya_kid]

I see, you're just arguing in circles because of emotional issues. Carry on.

[TylerDurden]

I see, you're just arguing in circles because of emotional issues. Carry on.

You haven't bothered even addressing some of the factual points I made, such as, er, that hydroponics has certain drawbacks and is not perfect. Also, your example of science being beyond reproach by citing animal experiments was somewhat effectively debunked by me. Never mind. You have a dreamy-eyed Utopian view of Science while I have a pessimistic, dystopian  view of Science given  our past life-experiences. Let's just agree that there are both benefits and disadvantages, overall.

[lb_on_the_cb]

Geoff, I would suggest actually researching solar before you laugh it off.

As far as hydroponics causing some secret nutritional deficiencies, that's completely unsupported by any research of ANY type. Anxiety does not equal fact.

it just wont be as healthy as what you could grow in the soil.  for ex have you seen the free video "Back to Eden"? (the music is real corny lol)   i think that guy has the best gardening method.  he claims he doesn't even water his plants in the summer time.

i did see some interesting youtube videos on fish + aquaponics and supposedly incredible yields

re solar most of the money has come from govt subsidies etc.  and last i heard Germany's solar and wind production was so lousy that they were reliant on cheap nuclear from France.  still if i look on Amazon there are solar products that are getting into the range of being worth buying, like fold up solar panels that will charge small power banks over USB - pretty cool

[cherimoya_kid]

You haven't bothered even addressing some of the factual points I made, such as, er, that hydroponics has certain drawbacks and is not perfect. Also, your example of science being beyond reproach by citing animal experiments was somewhat effectively debunked by me. Never mind. You have a dreamy-eyed Utopian view of Science while I have a pessimistic, dystopian  view of Science given  our past life-experiences. Let's just agree that there are both benefits and disadvantages, overall.

I'm not agreeing to anything, except the fact that you're intellectually dishonest whenever it suits you. Thalidomide hasn't got a thing to do with hydroponics. The ingredients in the nutrient solutions used are all the same as the most strict organic gardener uses on soil-grown plants.

And algae is not a problem as long as you are careful with light control, and use grapefruit seed extract.

[lb_on_the_cb]

you guys are smarter than me

 

[cherimoya_kid]

it just wont be as healthy as what you could grow in the soil.  for ex have you seen the free video "Back to Eden"? (the music is real corny lol)   i think that guy has the best gardening method.  he claims he doesn't even water his plants in the summer time.

i did see some interesting youtube videos on fish + aquaponics and supposedly incredible yields

re solar most of the money has come from govt subsidies etc.  and last i heard Germany's solar and wind production was so lousy that they were reliant on cheap nuclear from France.  still if i look on Amazon there are solar products that are getting into the range of being worth buying, like fold up solar panels that will charge small power banks over USB - pretty cool

What do you offer as proof for your assertions about hydroponics?

The fact is that hydroponics and vat-grown food are the wave of the future. Luddites though many of you are, you will all be singing this tune in 10 or 15 years.

Rex Harrill, the guy who wrote the Brix book, told me he has a friend who grows 16 Brix strawberries in the worst, sandiest soil in Florida. He boosts the Brix through daily foliar feeding. If you can get 16 Brix strawberries from sand, you can get them hydroponically, through foliar feeding. And just so you know, 16 Brix for strawberries is amazing, nutritionally and taste-wise. The best supermarket strawberries get up to 10 or 12, and usually no more than 6 or 8.

[cherimoya_kid]

Get a Brix meter and test them, if you won't believe me. You can get one on eBay for $40.

[lb_on_the_cb]

Well, OK, then  fact is that my past experiments with hydroponically-created sprouts of various kinds were pretty dismal, whereas my experiments with raw wild game a few months later were stupendously beneficial to my health.

i grew and ate a lot of various alfalfa, radish, clover sprouts last year and didnt see too much if any benefit. was kind of disappointing.
only differences i ever saw so far were better skin from using EVOO regularly - although this might have happened with any good quality oil i guess.  also one time i juiced quite a bit celery and the next morning seemed like i could really breathe well.   i used to buy 2 x 25 lb bags of carrots a week for juicing but not sure there was much effect.

what benefits did you notice by eating raw wild game?

[lb_on_the_cb]

What do you offer as proof for your assertions about hydroponics?

none, just a hunch

The fact is that hydroponics and vat-grown food are the wave of the future.

maybe. so was farming with chemicals 50 years ago

as for vat-food, god i hope not, lol.  doesnt sound appetizing although im sure they can make cardboard taste delicious these days with all the natural and atrificial flavors

Rex Harrill, the guy who wrote the Brix book, told me he has a friend who grows 16 Brix strawberries in the worst, sandiest soil in Florida. He boosts the Brix through daily foliar feeding. If you can get 16 Brix strawberries from sand, you can get them hydroponically, through foliar feeding. And just so you know, 16 Brix for strawberries is amazing, nutritionally and taste-wise. The best supermarket strawberries get up to 10 or 12, and usually no more than 6 or 8.

sounds like just another shortcut.  the health of the soil is most important in organic gardening farming.  i noticed the more compost and wood chips and other amendments i added, the healthier the plants were, fewer pest problems etc. 

[cherimoya_kid]

Stop worshipping nature. It's no better a religion than science. Lol

[RogueFarmer]

That's completely ridiculous. The nutrients you are foliar feeding with have to come from nature. That requires much more labor and energy and destruction of nature to harness these nutrients to foliar feed them every day than it does to you have them in healthy soil. Maybe science would trump nature if there were only a million people to look after, but people are the largest body mass of any single animal species on earth save perhaps a few in the ocean, we need nature to nourish us, science will continue to fail to nourish us.

It really angers me, you tell us to stop worshipping nature, but you are worshipping science which is as of yet unproven. You are putting all your hope in science to help us when it is proven that nature can help us.

Also this article says skulls were 20% bigger. www.dailymail.co.uk/.../article.../Human-brain-shrinking-20-000-years.html?

[cherimoya_kid]

I'm theoretically fine with using permaculture, etc. to feed people. Certainly I could teach you a few things about it. But that's not the ultimate direction things are going. Face the future.  It's coming whether you're OK with it or not. And your ridiculous assertions that Nature will always trump science are just that--ridiculous. You talk about the importance of human brajn size, and then forget what large brains cause. Science! That's what they cause. So get on board, or scream about it online. The result is the same.

You people have no idea the pain and work, years worth I've gone through to study these issues. You argue with me like we're equals. Not a damn one of you can equal my knowledge, or even close. I'm not bothering to cite studies because there are hundreds, and it takes years to understand this stuff. A few studies and 30 minutes of Googling will not give you the ability to teach me anything new. For that matter, even hands-on farming, which I've done plenty of, won't teach you either. You need both, plus an understanding of Moore's Law and related topics, plus years to mull it all over. I do not say any of these things lightly. My usually short posts belie a tremendous wealth of knowledge that none of you who argue with me even really guess at. Perhaps those who sit quietly do indeed guess correctly, but probably not many. It takes a very close reading of my posts to even begin to get an idea, and some things I basically never talk about.

 

[jessica]

Please give up and go back to your science and technology worship. 

LOL, what wont hands on farming teach you?  I have a hard time thinking of anything that direct contact with nature wont teach you.

also, are you drunk?

[cherimoya_kid]

Please give up and go back to your science and technology worship. 

LOL, what wont hands on farming teach you?  I have a hard time thinking of anything that direct contact with nature wont teach you.

also, are you drunk?

No, I'm not drunk, I'm just the very lonely voice of truly unbiased intellect on this forum....or heck, the whole species, nearly. People lack the curiosity necessary to deeply research things, and instead come up with "good enougn" rules of thumb that mostly work, until they DON'T work. I have outsized curiosity about human health, especially the future of human health, and I threw away my rules of thumb on my way to where I am on this topic. The rest of you just aren't there yet, apparently,  and that's just that.

And Jessica, hands-on farming doesn't teach you about hydroponics, or current research, etc.. What do you think good science is, exactly? It's direct contact with nature, methodical, repetitive, and careful.

Many of the things you know about mycorhizzal fungi, mushrooms in general, and plant health were discovered by very good scientists.

and I don't worship science. That's a fool's religion. Human futures do not involve going "back to the land", though. You can sneer at the city dwellers, but they outnumber the few folks trying to do things the natural way, and that won't change. I realize you think living your way makes you spiritually superior or something, but I've been down that path too, and it is a blind alley. Spiritually advanced people can be found in all environments, shrooms or not, raw foods or not, barefoot in dirt or wearing wingtips on a subway breathing dirty air. I say that with love, respect, and hopefully some patience.

[TylerDurden]

I'm not agreeing to anything, except the fact that you're intellectually dishonest whenever it suits you. Thalidomide hasn't got a thing to do with hydroponics.

You were talking about, er, so-called "good science" in general, at first, and then mentioned nutritional studies. OK, so the thalidomide animal experimentation disaster was indeed relevant to Science as a whole, whether good or not,  and, as regards nutritional studies, the same sort of thing applies in that what is good for rats to eat does not remotely equate to what is healthy for humans to eat(eg:-

http://healthinsightuk.org/2015/01/05/why-high-fat-diet-studies-on-rats-and-mice-are-not-to-be-trusted/

) It is not a case of me just saying so, it is a fact that more and more scientists are moving steadily away from performing animal-studies  as they have come to realise that other technologies are far more effective and reliable as regards results on humans.

And algae is not a problem as long as you are careful with light control, and use grapefruit seed extract.

I suspect that micromanagement on a mass industrial scale would not work well  as regards the algae issue. Though, I suppose you believe in a future where every individual grows his own food at home.


Lastly, Moore's law is predicted to fail in 20-40 years time by some sources......

[cherimoya_kid]

Moore's Law only needs to go another 20 years or so for all of this to happen. Once all physical jobs are totally automated, then the economy, and society, will change forever. And another 20 years of Moore's Law will allow automation of all physical work tasks, in my guess...and I'm not the only one guessing that. Ray Kurzweil and a lot of other people in the industry believe the same, and Kurzweil's predictions have a way of coming true. He's right far more often than he's wrong.

[cherimoya_kid]

And Tyler, you know as well as I do that comparing hydroponics to Thalidomide is extremely intellectually dishonest. You're damaging your credibility to try to win an argument. Feel free to do so, but don't expect the consequences of that to be desirable.

[TylerDurden]

Moore's Law only needs to go another 20 years or so for all of this to happen. Once all physical jobs are totally automated, then the economy, and society, will change forever. And another 20 years of Moore's Law will allow automation of all physical work tasks, in my guess...and I'm not the only one guessing that. Ray Kurzweil and a lot of other people in the industry believe the same, and Kurzweil's predictions have a way of coming true. He's right far more often than he's wrong.

Kurzweil has been shown to deliberately twist events to make it seem as though his predictions were sound:-

https://pando.com/2014/02/03/the-singularity-is-not-near/

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/425733/paul-allen-the-singularity-isnt-near/

Also, you have not considered the perils of automation. Rendering most people useless as machines replace them,means only a tiny few will have the creativity to do jobs that machines cannot do.

[TylerDurden]

And Tyler, you know as well as I do that comparing hydroponics to Thalidomide is extremely intellectually dishonest. You're damaging your credibility to try to win an argument. Feel free to do so, but don't expect the consequences of that to be desirable.

It was relevant since you were also talking about good science in general and live-animal-studies and the thalidomide disaster thoroughly debunked that point. I anyway did point out, later on,  some other data debunking nutritional studies on live animals. More to the point, this thread is now on a wildly different subject. Granted, those who dream of utopian futures where they end up eating manufactured raw  fish-meat made from algae or whatever, will not care - but those of us who want to continue eating cheap, natural, raw seafoods in their natural state, will be very concerned,  and that is why I posted the article.

[lb_on_the_cb]

I'm theoretically fine with using permaculture, etc. to feed people. Certainly I could teach you a few things about it. But that's not the ultimate direction things are going. Face the future.  It's coming whether you're OK with it or not. And your ridiculous assertions that Nature will always trump science are just that--ridiculous. You talk about the importance of human brajn size, and then forget what large brains cause. Science! That's what they cause. So get on board, or scream about it online. The result is the same.

You people have no idea the pain and work, years worth I've gone through to study these issues. You argue with me like we're equals. Not a damn one of you can equal my knowledge, or even close. I'm not bothering to cite studies because there are hundreds, and it takes years to understand this stuff. A few studies and 30 minutes of Googling will not give you the ability to teach me anything new. For that matter, even hands-on farming, which I've done plenty of, won't teach you either. You need both, plus an understanding of Moore's Law and related topics, plus years to mull it all over. I do not say any of these things lightly. My usually short posts belie a tremendous wealth of knowledge that none of you who argue with me even really guess at. Perhaps those who sit quietly do indeed guess correctly, but probably not many. It takes a very close reading of my posts to even begin to get an idea, and some things I basically never talk about.

wow, drunk or incredibly arrogant. 

You can sneer at the city dwellers, but they outnumber the few folks trying to do things the natural way, and that won't change.

and whats the point - do their numbers make them right?