Edward Snowden's theory on why we've never heard from aliens

[JeuneKoq]

http://www.techinsider.io/edward-snowden-talks-alien-communication-with-neil-degrasse-tyson-2015-9

[cherimoya_kid]

This assumes that aliens are even using the same frequencies we're listening to. Their understanding of physics might be so advanced that they are using something other than the electromagnetic spectrum entirely.

[TylerDurden]

Occam's razor means that we should adopt the easiest, most logical answer which is that any aliens are long since extinct.

[cherimoya_kid]

The easiest, most logical answer is that aliens have the same interest in us that we do in bacteria. We study it...we don't talk to it.

[TylerDurden]

The easiest, most logical answer is that aliens have the same interest in us that we do in bacteria. We study it...we don't talk to it.

No, that's an incorrect interpretation. Here is an excerpt from an article on the Fermi paradox which explains it fully:-

"They Do Not Exist

Others argue that the conditions for life, or at least complex life, are rare. For instance, some hypotheses say that complex life required the stimulation of tides from Earth's moon to evolve, and the Moon is the result of freak occurrence, a body of a certain mass striking Earth at just the right angle to carve off the material and put it in a stable orbit.

Another possibilty is that ice ages, comet or meteor impacts, supernovae, gamma ray bursters or other catastrophic planetary or galactic events are so common that life rarely has the time to evolve. Alternately, these events may not be frequent enough on other planets and evolution is slowed because there aren't enough mass extinctions to encourage diversity.

Even if the conditions for life are common, the evolution of human-like intelligence, the invention of radio technology or interest in the exploration of outer space may be vanishingly rare.

Conclusion
A common concept used in the scientific method to test the validity of certain ideas is Occam's Razor. To paraphrase, Occam's Razor states that the explanation for a given phenomenon that has the fewest assumptions should be preferred over more complicated ones.

All this draws us to a few possible conclusions, say adherents of the Fermi Principle: that as a technologically advanced species, we are alone in our part of the Cosmos. The simplest explanation, say adherents to the premise behind the Fermi Paradox, is the last one."

[sabertooth]

No, that's an incorrect interpretation. Here is an excerpt from an article on the Fermi paradox which explains it fully:-

Conclusion
A common concept used in the scientific method to test the validity of certain ideas is Occam's Razor. To paraphrase, Occam's Razor states that the explanation for a given phenomenon that has the fewest assumptions should be preferred over more complicated ones.

All this draws us to a few possible conclusions, say adherents of the Fermi Principle: that as a technologically advanced species, we are alone in our part of the Cosmos. The simplest explanation, say adherents to the premise behind the Fermi Paradox, is the last one."

Forgive me if this seems far out, and much too embracing of complexity but I don't buy into the lack of electromagnetic signals our instruments can perceive as any kind of evidence whatsoever in disproving the possibility of highly advanced extraterrestrial life.

If there so happened that an intelligent species had at some point reached a singularity, then you can throw both Occam's razor and Fermi's Paradox out the cosmic window. For when such a point of universal evolution is reached then there is no longer any chance of us being able to rationalize the existence of or the absence of extra terrestrial entities using the simplest explanation.

Its evolution on a cosmic scale, of a cosmic entity which is much greater than the sum of its parts. Just as we as conscious beings are greater than the sum of our cells, this celestial being must be much more complex than anything we could possibly imagine. As is above  so is below, and evolution of energy into matter, matter into the living DNA, DNA into consciousness, very well could of happened in other times and places than the here and now.(eternity is a very long time, and a lot can happen from now until the end of forever) What boggles our minds is what would the next step of this evolution be if a civilization could survive and transcend past the self awareness stage long enough to develop the technology to create universal awareness...... could there have been beings that have already reached to infinity and beyond?

I see no differentiation between the Angels of long ago and the aliens of today, they may not have an incarnate reality but they could embody some transcendental other worldly being, which the biologic instruments of our 6 sense based intuition is only capable of making out in a limited way. What people like Snowden and Tyson and all those Godless pretentious rationalist seem to ignore in the quest for absolute truth, is the very possibility that there is an evolved cosmic entity that is in direct interface with this world on a level that transcends all our most advanced instrumentation to perceive. If such an entity were to exist then its silence may be because of a deliberate non interference( or in star trek terms a "prime directive" )

God has too much stigmata to be used to describe the essence of the "great spirit" or "cosmic entity". Looking at the cosmos as a living entity, as a being which evolved from natural processes, up to a point of universal awareness. From the point of this singularity, the commonly held view of the cycle of big bang followed by a burning out of the universe, may not be correct.

Such an entity could very well become a self replicating, self perpetuating, transuniversial being, as a result of the same process by which our own DNA harness cosmic energy to proliferate, evolve and transcend previous forms. Our cells operate in such a way that they divide and differentiate in ways which synergisticly make the phenomenon of consciousnesses possible. Just as our individual cells are not aware of the phenomenon of consciousness, our consciousness is just as unaware of the cosmic entity of which it is a part.

[TylerDurden]

The obvious point, mentioned by Kurzweil the dreamy-eyed character who more or less defines the hubristic technological singularity movement, is that the very first time a particular species reaches a technological singularity, then no other species can reach it - because, once the technological singularity is reached, the whole Universe becomes full of  "mindfire"," computronium", and "matrioshka brains" - yet no such evidence exists for the telescopes. Even Kurzweil acknowledges that his concept only works for humanity if no other species has come across the technological singularity  first.

To use a similiar concept:- Mankind is the only sentient species on Earth. In theory, a few species on this planet might theoretically be able to reach sentience(eg:- bears, pigs, gorillas, chimpanzees, orang-utangs) but none of them have. No doubt either because of our presence, or because the unique conditions that lead to the emergence of sentient life are so rare that they can never occur again on this planet. Similiarly, the mere presence of an alien species in space is likely to prevent others from reaching interstellar depths, regardless of whether the aliens are pacifistic types or not.

[cherimoya_kid]

So you use Kurzweil's theory while denigrating him? That's convenient. LOL

But really, Geoff, if you were anywhere NEAR as well-thought-through as I am on this topic, you'd argue it in your own words, instead of quoting other people.

[TylerDurden]

So you use Kurzweil's theory while denigrating him? That's convenient. LOL

Kurzweil is a flawed man who is obviously in love with Ayn Rand's hubristic, insane  theories(man becomes god etc.)   and I therefore have no problem with pointing out flaws in his theories. In this case, his flawed theories  were misused to try to debunk Fermi's Paradox, with the latter being one of THE most solid claims in science.

But really, Geoff, if you were anywhere NEAR as well-thought-through as I am on this topic, you'd argue it in your own words, instead of quoting other people.

Fermi's Paradox is very difficult to debunk, so I did not really need my own words. I do not claim to be a scientist(though I wish I could have been one) so it is so much easier to cite really brilliant  scientists  that have thought a hell of a lot more on the subject than I or anyone else has. Plus, Occam's Razor is a very useful tool for a layman like me to debunk convoluted, over-complicated solutions/claims when there are much simpler possible explanations.
[/quote]

[cherimoya_kid]

You're full of shit.

[sabertooth]

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

One must think of the singularity in a different light, Kurzweils notions are not the be all end all on the subject,  there is a infinitesimal array of ways that such a phenomenon could play out. Take life for arguments sake, the formation of the first multicellular organisms as an example of a kind of singularity event, which created replicable forms using morphogenetic fields and cosmic forces which are still not understood by mankind. These unseen forces maintain a balance within the multiplicity of diverging life forms and unify our world. Other singularities of infinitely greater magnitude very well could be occurring and are being kept in balance by an unfathomable celestial order .....  perhaps what we know as the cosmos has been created by such an aftereffect of intelligently designed singularities which occur beyond an event horizon, which acts as a buffer between our world and the universal god like being. This horizonal buffer being a kind of "mindfire wall" which allows the intelligence a multiplicity of separately evolving entities to evolve and singularities the subsequent to occur without burning down the entire celestial mainframe.

This kind of singularity may act like cosmic sporeworks seeding the multiverse with the conditionality conducive for the development of a multitude of consciously evolved beings, while at the same time protecting the fragility of life from the torrential cosmic forces, by encapsulating it withing individuated universes, specifically designed with the quantumly engineered qualities necessary for the seeds of consciousness to grow (our known universe could be a kind of consciousness seed bank and nursery of highly evolved multiversal entities)

[TylerDurden]

You're full of shit.

So sad, you can't  even debunk truly great minds such  as Fermi, so resort to foul language, as a last resort. And what are your credentials? Perhaps you are a long-time certified astronomer? I somewhat doubt it. That is what I love about citing people who are far greater than me, their arguments are so much better than the hoi polloi, such as you or me. As Isaac Newton said, " I stand on the shoulders of giants". Now that was pretty humble a statement from such a great man. Perhaps you could learn a lot from him.

[TylerDurden]

SB, you are in many ways a marvellous individual, but the above philosophical guff can be reduced to one observation:- "you need to believe in a god or Gods" or some sort of higher power. Please read Max Stirner's main thesis/book. It shows how by trusting in a higher authority, you, as an individual, lose power and control over your life. Incidentally, all your ideas in this regard require  a foolish belief in Star-Trek-like "Prime Directive". Not only is the prime directive not something that humans are genuinely capable of(I can cite endless historical examples in this regard) but it is absurd to assume that aliens would adhere to any Prime Directive.

[cherimoya_kid]

Geoff. Why do you assume aliens need us? We don't need the Sentinel Islanders.

[TylerDurden]

Geoff. Why do you assume aliens need us? We don't need the Sentinel Islanders.

Even us "enlightened" humans affect shoreslime far away  due to pollution etc. So would the mere presence of any aliens foul us up.

[cherimoya_kid]

And the bullshit's getting deeper.

[TylerDurden]

And the bullshit's getting deeper.

You are always looking for more complicated solutions when far simpler solutions exist . Too bad!

[cherimoya_kid]

The simplest solution is that you're intellectually lazy, and were only driven to learn about nutrition through sheer desperation about your declining health.

Contrast that with me, who came to raw foodism out of curiosity. Of the two of us, I am far more intellectually curious. And that makes me the more open-minded and unbiased of us, as well.

[sabertooth]

SB, you are in many ways a marvellous individual, but the above philosophical guff can be reduced to one observation:- "you need to believe in a god or Gods" or some sort of higher power. Please read Max Stirner's main thesis/book. It shows how by trusting in a higher authority, you, as an individual, lose power and control over your life. Incidentally, all your ideas in this regard require  a foolish belief in Star-Trek-like "Prime Directive". Not only is the prime directive not something that humans are genuinely capable of(I can cite endless historical examples in this regard) but it is absurd to assume that aliens would adhere to any Prime Directive.

I think I can agree with you on the prerequisite to some of my recent musings, is the existence of a higher power, but I do not agree that having a belief in a higher power some how disempowers the human individual in the same way as you think. Throughout my life I have wanted to deny the existence of god and have gone through many nihilistic phases, believing that this world is merely a fluke created from random circumstance, but more and more I am beginning to see the signature of an architect encrypted into the nature of all things.

Being a part of greater entity does not make one powerless or insignificant. As  living humans we have within us the creative powers of the almighty manifested within our very being. "Our hands are made strong by the hand of the almighty as we forward in this generation triumphantly"

The prime directive I agree is a bit of a paradox , and on a human level seems to go against our nature, yet I like the idea that there are fields of influence which shape our existence, and create a balance within chaos, without having to in a direct way make itself known. Maintaining the "great mystery" in "mysterious ways" could be a kind of prime directive by which the creator presents the challenge of understanding the insoluble problems of existence to its creation, then allowing space and time for its creation to work without interference. 

It can be argued that these universal fields of influence just so happens to be set at the infinitesimally precise parameter necessary for our existence to concur. The question at hand is it random occurrence of cosmic forces or is it a divine creation of a cosmic entity. No one so far has been able to answer this question either way, and its very possible that both views are in some ways true and false, as the paradoxes in these lines of thinking are unavoidable. As a free thinking individual I am leaning toward a belief in the divine creation of our universe which arouse out of the essence of the cosmic forces within a universal field of infinite possibility.

 I am not concerned much if this so called philosophical guff is based in empirical truth or is merely a well intentioned delusion. I feel like the individual can lose just as much power in submitting to those who wear the ordained rational scientist role as they can by yielding to the holy men of antiquity.  This yearning for the ineffable knowledge of god consciousness may be the catalyst by which such god consciousness arises in the universe. To suppress this side of the human experience and denigrate those who dream could very well stifel our species and religate the human enterprise to mediocrity. Who  amongst the skeptics has the right to tell the first upright ape as it begins its assent into manhood, that their descendants will never be able to travel to the stars in the sky.

If you are right and it is only us humans whom have progressed thus far in all of what ever is, then perhaps it is up to us  to build the great transcendence machine, and let it evolve the entire universal field into the higher realms. Humans in many ways are godlike in the way we can Dream the impossible dream.

Another point regarding Newtons standing on the shoulders of giants.... Although one can appear to see further than anyone else before from a perch atop the giants, you can only travel so far and learn so much while riding upon juggernauts, before reaching the chasm . With your head in the clouds you may never notice that the ground upon which the giants once walked has shifted greatly, knocking those once great pillars of truth, back down to earth while you find yourself unable to traverse the terrestrial realm .

In order to prepare for the next quantum leap forward its going to take a leap of faith.

[cherimoya_kid]

What if the soul level of the Universe evolves like everything else living does? Life started off as hydrocarbons slowly advancing into single-celled organisms and finally into humans. What if souls do the same thing, finally coalescing into some sort of God or gods?

[TylerDurden]

The simplest solution is that you're intellectually lazy, and were only driven to learn about nutrition through sheer desperation about your declining health.

Contrast that with me, who came to raw foodism out of curiosity. Of the two of us, I am far more intellectually curious. And that makes me the more open-minded and unbiased of us, as well.

Like I said before, resorting to personal (illogical)attacks without a decent argument is just sad....Anyway, the point was not about defeating me, it was about trying to defeat Fermi, who was far more knowledgeable than you or I. Unfortunately, no other scientist has  yet been able to come up with a more convincing argument.

[TylerDurden]

SB, nothing wrong with dreams, animals dream too, not just humans. The point is that the whole technological singularity concept is a matter of human hubris, an Ayn-Rand-inspired  fantasy which involves humans dreaming about eventually becoming God or part thereof, a sort of grandiose delusion in the clinical sense. Humans are neither divine, nor divinely-appointed, they are just one species among many others living on a shithole backwater planet in a remote galaxy of no importance.

Here is some data on Huebner's claims:-

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7616-entering-a-dark-age-of-innovation/

Kurzweil has often, apparently, "massaged" his data in order to back up his predictions. I was a fan of the TS until a while back when I realised that many past TS  etc. predictions simply were not happening and were always supposed to be  "just around the corner".

Incidentally, Kurzweil has predicted that in the late 2020s we will invent nanobots which will allow us to eat junk food etc. without ever being harmed by such consumption. Wishful thinking!

[cherimoya_kid]

Many people said man would never fly. Then, one day, we flew.

[jessica]

oh wow you guys need to do some mushrooms. the higher power is all beings interconnected.  much like how our cells conspire to create something greater than they would be alone, we are a giant organism, interconnected with each other, ever creation in nature on this earth, the earth as its own being composed of that and all things as far out into the universe as it takes to get back to that place behind your eyes you will never be able to "See" but maybe to a lesser degree to us consciously due to distance and scale.  its not that mystical or spiritual but it is when you realize the scale of your own existence and how everything in the universe up until now conspired for you to be the unique expression of the whole that you are at this point in time.  there is a huge duality in being part of something so huge, but also feeling as an individual, most people cant wrap their minds around both and feel more comfortable choosing one option over the next and giving the universe a story in mans image because they cannot handle things being vague or grasping concepts with their senses  instead of their "intellect" 

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, my own recent magic mushroom experiment died badly. I forgot to add a heating-mat, which must have been the problem. I will have to try again, though others I've mentioned this to, off-line,  all think I am going to turn into an addict.