Author Topic: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be  (Read 19928 times)

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Offline ys

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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2015, 04:32:53 am »
Lol I like the conclusion of this article  ;D

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4072

"I'll close with an experience related by a listener who wrote in, that aptly illustrates this phenomenon:

    We had an interesting incident near Humboldt State University. A new cell tower went up and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cell phone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health. To paraphrase the bottom line: "think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."



I guess it is a psychosomatic phenomenon for lots of people. I personally never noticed any strong ill effects from being close to sources of EMFs over a long period of time. I just used to turn off the wifi at night as a measure of precaution. I do have this friend that is quite sensible to this kind of stuff, and advised me to move my bed at least 10cm from the electric socket. Don't remember if I ended up sleeping better or not.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 04:38:07 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2015, 04:41:47 am »
The most ecofriendly energy source for transportation is oil from conventional fields (which are getting depleted). Biofuels cause much more environmental damages, an hydrogen network is an Utopia and would be very inefficient, electricity must be generated somehow, batteries are all but ecological and even wind turbines need fossil fuels to be made and maintained. 
Yeah, I was thinking about hydrogen, but as far as I know the engine is very expensive because of the platinum piece(s) in it. And as you said, biofuel sounds like an increase in chemical conventional fields, which would be the opposite of ecological.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2015, 05:31:49 am »
About hydrogen (H2) as a fuel, see for example the articles of Ulf Bossel (Google finds them) or
Joe Romm : The Hype about Hydrogen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hype_about_Hydrogen
Alice Friedemann : The Hydrogen Economy. Savior of Humanity or an Economic Black Hole?
http://energyskeptic.com/2011/hydrogen/
Julian Cox : Time To Come Clean About Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/06/04/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-about-not-clean/
Hobbled by High Cost, Hydrogen Fuel Cells Will Be a Modest $3 Billion Market in 2030
http://www.luxresearchinc.com/news-and-events/press-releases/read/hobbled-high-cost-hydrogen-fuel-cells-will-be-modest-3-billion

There's a strong lobbying for it from the nuclear industry (Areva and Bouygues in France), but it's a nonsense, the efficiency of an H2 propulsion chain "from well to wheel" being less than 30%.

 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2015, 05:35:51 am »
Francois, graphene batteries are the next big thing. You might want to research it.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2015, 05:38:50 am »
The trouble with all these alternative technologies is the vast expense. Indeed, Huebner et al are predicting that future technologies will cost such vast amounts that, eventually, they will become unfeasible.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2015, 06:05:28 am »
Francois, graphene batteries are the next big thing. You might want to research it.
Maybe, but still you have to charge and recharge them and electricity generation is neither free nor infinitely abundant.  If electric vehicles are well suited for use in short or medium distance, especially in an urban environment, their use on long journeys remains problematic. Tesla Motors is currently installing in the US and in Europe a network of "superchargers" of 120 kilowatts to recharge at 50% in 20 minutes the 85 kWh battery of its Model S. While some scattered refills take place at any time, these are just drops of water in a lake, but if thousands of electric vehicles in long distance use are recharged in tense period, the situation could become critical, especially as the European network is already at the limit during cold weather, and I guess the situation in North America isn't much better.

See International Energy Agency's "World Energy Investment Outlook - Executive Summary"
https://www.iea.org/publications/freepublications/publication/world-energy-investment-outlook---executive-summary.html
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2015, 06:17:40 am »
The trouble with all these alternative technologies is the vast expense. Indeed, Huebner et al are predicting that future technologies will cost such vast amounts that, eventually, they will become unfeasible.

Every new technology drops in price quickly these days. Use your brain.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2015, 06:22:02 am »
Maybe, but still you have to charge and recharge them and electricity generation is neither free nor infinitely abundant.  If electric vehicles are well suited for use in short or medium distance, especially in an urban environment, their use on long journeys remains problematic. Tesla Motors is currently installing in the US and in Europe a network of "superchargers" of 120 kilowatts to recharge at 50% in 20 minutes the 85 kWh battery of its Model S. While some scattered refills take place at any time, these are just drops of water in a lake, but if thousands of electric vehicles in long distance use are recharged in tense period, the situation could become critical, especially as the European network is already at the limit during cold weather, and I guess the situation in North America isn't much better.

See International Energy Agency's "World Energy Investment Outlook - Executive Summary"
https://www.iea.org/publications/freepublications/publication/world-energy-investment-outlook---executive-summary.html


You are forgetting the exponential increase in solar use.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2015, 06:26:12 am »
The IEA has also forgot it!

But there's a solution: stop wasting energy (electricity and natural gas) for cooking food and keep it for transportation!
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2015, 06:46:02 am »
Every new technology drops in price quickly these days. Use your brain.
There is an upper limit, unfortunately. For example, fusion power is always going to be hyper-expensive.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2015, 06:52:27 am »
There is an upper limit, unfortunately. For example, fusion power is always going to be hyper-expensive.

Who cares about fusion? Although I disagree that it will be always expensive. I imagine that it will take several decades before it's usable, though.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2015, 06:53:41 am »
The IEA has also forgot it!

But there's a solution: stop wasting energy (electricity and natural gas) for cooking food and keep it for transportation!

Relatively little electricity and gas is used for cooking. More is used for heating hot water and heating homes, running TVs, refrigerators, etc.  But I agree, it would save at least a little energy.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 06:59:13 am by cherimoya_kid »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2015, 08:41:06 am »
Relatively little electricity and gas is used for cooking. More is used for heating hot water and heating homes, running TVs, refrigerators, etc.  But I agree, it would save at least a little energy.
I recall one article where globla warming was to a large extent blamed on third-worlders making wood-burning fires for cooking.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2015, 08:43:05 am »
Who cares about fusion? Although I disagree that it will be always expensive. I imagine that it will take several decades before it's usable, though.
  What is so certain such technologies will never happen is the over-enthusiastic predictions made by TSers such as yourself re predictions of 20-30 years later which, of course, never mature. Now if such predictions were for thousands od years later, I might pause for thought, but quite honestly, you are exhibiting hubris a la Kurzweil......
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2015, 09:30:29 am »
  What is so certain such technologies will never happen is the over-enthusiastic predictions made by TSers such as yourself re predictions of 20-30 years later which, of course, never mature. Now if such predictions were for thousands od years later, I might pause for thought, but quite honestly, you are exhibiting hubris a la Kurzweil......

All such past predictions were guesswork. My predictions are actually based on the math of Moore's Law. It shows no signs of major slowing, and until it does, I'm sticking with my predictions--or Kurzweil's, actually. He's got a track record of being right.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2015, 09:40:55 am »
All such past predictions were guesswork. My predictions are actually based on the math of Moore's Law. It shows no signs of major slowing, and until it does, I'm sticking with my predictions--or Kurzweil's, actually. He's got a track record of being right.
  Errr....http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/03/20/ray-kurzweils-predictions-for-2009-were-mostly-inaccurate/ " [/quote]
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2015, 09:42:48 am »
EMFs are so ambiguous and ubiquitous that its impossible to say for sure if they are universally safe. Most of the man made EMF radiation we have been exposed to has only been around for the last 60 years, and only in the last 20 has it been taken to the level it is now. How could any study show the trans generational effects of EMFs, when there is no control data available. The effects could be literally entirely in ones head, in the way it interferes with circadian rhythm or other neuron electrical signaling.... these subtle metalogical effects are extremely difficult to measure scientifically. There is also the possibility of these energy fields disrupting our genetic structures, causing infertility or even degenerate offspring.

Animal studies have shown negative effects of chronic emf exposure
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3553569/
and though most human studies are very uncontrolled and incomplete there is anecdotal evidence of possible issues
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071010/

It would seem like taking precautionary measures are responsible in the absences of absolute proof either way. I worked as an electrician for years inside panel rooms, next to transformers, holding power tools for countless hours....... so I do the best to mitigate my past exposure by avoiding as mush as possible EMFs at home.....I sleep on a magnetic bed, and make sure all electrical devices are turned off at night. I don't carry a cell phone on me, don't have a smart meter on the house, don't live right next to a cell tower and basically try to limit my exposure to the best of my ability.

A primary concern with EMF, which may have some scientific legitimacy is the way it can be mistaken for solar energy by the Pineal gland, and if you are exposed to high levels of EMF after dark it can trick your brain into thinking its still daylight, and thereby cause the suppression of the excretion of melatonin......   as well as interfere with other hormonal systems that rejuvenate during normal sleep cycles, which overtime can lead to insomnia, depression, behavioral issues, adrenal burnout, and a host of other related degenerative conditions.


The trouble with all these alternative technologies is the vast expense. Indeed, Huebner et al are predicting that future technologies will cost such vast amounts that, eventually, they will become unfeasible.

I feel the same...... it seems like even the cheapest electric vehicles coming to market in the next decade will be far beyond the average 1st world worker to afford, and even if the price comes down to reasonable levels the environmental cost with electric cars, though not as directly felt as combustion engines is still extremely high. The Batteries are insanely resource consumptive and full of toxic materials that would require extensive cost to maintain and recycle.

Solar panels are also resource intensive and contain very toxic substances which must be carefully disposed of?

There is still a lot of uncertainty about the possible issues with wind turbines...a google search will show conflicting evidence regarding wind turbine syndrom
http://www.windturbinesyndrome.com/2011/animals-too-suffer-from-wind-turbine-syndrome/

The energy saving light bulbs full of poisonous gas, give off a horrible depressing light frequency which is causing much more harm than good to both the earth and the human race.

Then there is "crack pot conspiracy theorist " whom believe that the entire green movement has been taken over by Phonies and useful idiots, and is simply an empty front being run by cartels that are more interested in profits than they are creating real viable solutions.

Still, I wonder if the resource that have been used on combustion engines where poured into other avenues of technological development, human ingenuity could find a way to provide effective, affordable and clean transportation to everyone. With the same effort that went into the Manhattan project we could avail ourselves of the need for fossil fuels.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 09:47:57 am by sabertooth »
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2015, 09:47:00 am »
LEDs don't contain toxic gases. Maybe you're thinking of CFLs or sodium vapor bulbs.

And graphene is not resource-consumptive. So....everybody shut up about that.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2015, 10:13:42 am »
I Know the difference between LEDs, compact florescent, and high pressure sodium...My point is that the government regulations which required the phasing out of incandescent bulbs, where lobbied for by manufacturers who have made billions from selling the CFL transitional bulbs.... These bulbs are still being heavily used, and are extremely poisonous, and they give off a toxic and irritating frequency of light. They where everywhere I have traveled, and it will be decades before the transition to LED is complete...and in the meantime the civilized world will be subjected to the florescent tyranny

The phasing out of incandescent bulbs though it saves on energy cost, to me it is a prime example of eco tyranny...being perpetrated by those whom do not care about the well being of the people or the planet....these are religious fanatics that do not realize that by saturating the human population with low quality light they will be causing more harm than good.

The transitional halogen incandescent bulbs being produced now only have a one year life span, this is planned obsolescent by the light bulb cartels which have strategically orchestrated the whole transition to their favor.... The Incandescent....to halogen and CFL....then eventually to the ultra efficient and long lasting, but also very expensive LED. Though Led does not use toxic gas, and the new generation does seem to give off a much warmer and less harsh light, it still gives off high EMFs and its light in no way could ever match the living quality of incandescent light.

Graphene Batteries sound wonderful, and as soon as they are made affordable and readily available in cars with Faraday shielding, I would consider endorsing them.
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2015, 11:27:44 am »
For fuck's sake...you people eat the most robustifying diet on the planet, and then run from a little EMF. The whole point of the diet is so you don't have to be so afraid of everything. Jesus fuck. LOL whatever

And I agree with you on the CFL bullshit. I don't think it will be decades to replace them, though. Maybe 8-10 years, roughly, depending on their life span. And the LEDs are coming down in price FAST.  They've dropped in price by half in the last year. And the light is gorgeous now. The entire main floor of my house is on LEDs now.

Offline thetasig

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2015, 03:18:22 am »
I noted a comment about EMF and phones and electric cars. One thing that is telling about cell phone technology is that the service persons who come out to repair and refurbish cell phone tower antennas, are not permitted to get within 10 feet of them (front, back, or sideways) without first turning them off. This is very appropriate and helps to preserve the service person's health, but the companies who make and utilize those towers don't also acknowledge that any people who live nearby are getting a steady stream of microwaves beamed at them (and some citizens live within 15 feet of said antennas). However the FCC in the U.S. has written laws that forbid a citizen to object to placement of a cellphone tower due to "health-related" problems. Now with electric cars also having internet "phone home" technology built into the core of their operation, drivers will have even more exposure to EMF. Genotoxicity is a real, demonstrated effect, but, as yet, no specific other health threats have been shown. For me, the changes to the genome are bad enough to be a bit worrisome.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2015, 03:52:38 am »
*sigh* EMF is NOT microwaves. Fucking learn the difference. Microwaves are proven harmful in specific dosage. They cook you. But the whole point of this diet is to robustify you enough to counteract small, cumulative damage to your health. The body's DNA does have a pretty wonderful self-repair system.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Sea-breeze ain't what it used to be
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2015, 05:08:00 am »
Hhm, interesting:-

http://www.rblank.com/2013/08/05/genotoxicity-of-cell-phone-wifi-emf-radiation/

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/259987319_Enhanced_cytotoxic_and_genotoxic_effects_of_gadolinium_following_ELF-EMF_irradiation_in_human_lymphocytes

It is not conclusive, of course as some studies claim that the reported genotoxic effects are not reproducible, but still.... I used to be dismissive of EMF claims but did wonder at some reports in the media of people with severe reactions to any electrical gadget in their house etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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