fats and cuts of meat

[Tim]

im still new to paleo eating and new to meat eating (as i have been vegetarian for a while!) so please excuse my ignorance here. im still really confused about cuts of meat and how much fat is generally desired... im confused about saturated fat. some resources i find say eat lean meat, some say eat really fatty meat.

 Ive been getting whatever grassfed meat i can find at whole foods. there is not a lot of choices really. what i got this week was beef skirt. it was A LOT of fat. and it was white. i thought generally grassfed had less fat and that the fat was supposed to be more yellow in color. it was also pretty tough, so i cut it up with scissors. Anyway, what are the best cuts of meat and how much fat should i be getting?? I guess i should also be looking toward moving toward organ meats too huh. just wondering what you all think is ideal?

i recently found this site [url]http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-primal-blueprint//url] (although cooked paleo) which has been very inspiring and helpful. it seems he is really into saturated fats but yet recommends lean cuts of meat???

any help would be great!!

[Raw Kyle]

I try to eat as much fat as I can. Cuts of meat are usually lean because that's what today's customers want, so I supplement with extra suet or hide fat my meat intake. There is nothing unhealthy about saturated fats, that is a complete myth.

[yon yonson]

i usually get brisket or shoulder roast. both of those have a pretty good amount of very good tasting fat (at least my source does). cuts probably differ from place to place. like kyle said though, i try to eat as much fat as i can. i can usually tell when i've had enough fat

[TylerDurden]

From what I've heard, suet and fat in general is only yellow if rendered(ie heated). It's white otherwise.

Re organ-meats/fat:- If you're going raw zero-carb, then fatty meats like lamb/mutton are essential(100% grassfed, of course).Many people find it helpful to supplement with raw animal fats/organs like raw marrow,suet, or tongue, if they only have lean meats available.

[Tim]

thank you for all the clarification! i figured more fat was best. although at this time i have no intentions of going zero carb. Currently im interested in maintaining some plant food in my diet.

im still learning about the different cuts and what part of the animal they come from. Im looking into farms in my area that have organic grassfed meat, and thankfully there seems to be a lot of great farms around me here in virginia. just got to start contacting them. im looking forward to trying a wider variety of cuts and would like to try other animals as well, such as lamb.

also im still trying to accustom myself to raw. its a lot chewier but i know as you have posted before, tyler that we dont have to chew too much. ive been out to eat for sashimi a few times since deciding to go paleo and really enjoy that, and I plan on going to an ethiopian restaurant that serves raw beef which im really looking forward to!

[lex_rooker]

Tim,
I eat only grass fed red meat from deer, elk, bison, or beef etc.  I really don't like pork, mutton, fish, or sea foods so eat them only on occasion.  I order course ground "chili" meat (usually beef but on occasion bison or other red meat), Dog & Cat food (has ground mix of organs as well as muscle meat), and suet from Slankers.

My normal mix is 2 lbs of chili meat (one package), mixed with 1 1/2 lbs dog & cat food (one package), and add about 1/2 lb of ground suet to raise the fat content a bit.  I eat about 2 lbs of this mix every day as my only food and I eat it raw.  I have been doing this for several years now.  The dog & cat food is rather strong tasting and takes a bit of getting used too, but now plain muscle meat seems very bland and I prefer a bit of the D & C mixed in.

At one time I was convinced that organ meats were essential but now I'm not so sure.  I know of others who are doing quite well long term (4 to 5 years) on grass fed muscle meats and fat with no organ meats at all, so if you find organ meats not to your liking I wouldn't obsess over them.

I also wouldn't obsess over eating everything raw to start with.  Just cook things less and less and slowly transition over time.  I'd say it took me 2 years to get to the point where I started preferring my meat raw.  I believe it is better to start eating the correct foods first, even if they are cooked to some extent, and then work on eating them in their more natural raw state.  I think you will find that just the transistion from SAD or vegetarian to Paleo (cooked or raw) will lead to dramatic improvements in how you feel.

My health has never been better as a total carnivore (much to the astonishment of my doctor).  It is also quite inexpensive.  I eat for less than $10 USD per day.  Most people spend more than this on lunch alone.

Lex

[Tim]

Lex, thank you very much for your reply, definitely helpful!!! very great to hear your success! I am choosing to add meat because of feelings of deficiencies (as well as my desire to have a lifestyle as natural as possible) Like a lot of others here im coming from a raw vegan/vegetarian diet. So thankfully im adjusted to all plant foods raw. Ive done some raw dairy in the past and have been doing raw eggs for a while. I have been reading that a lot of people here seem to be thriving on less and less plant foods and more meat instead, so who knows where my diet will go.  im still experimenting with plant foods in addition to adding the raw meat. Already i feel better having added the meat!! Ive also noticed, like you noted, it is less expensive which is an added perk and im sure the cost will continue to go down. 10$/day is great!

it seems you have a really great system through slankers. I think i may try this soon. I am very interested in trying deer as well. Do you order your deer online? my only concern (and this may be of really no concern) with the 'chili' meat, it is ground. will this lead to quicker oxidation, making the meat tougher?

[lex_rooker]

Tim,
If I'm lucky I get deer and elk occasionally from my nephew as he is a hunter.  Slankers has beef, bison, pork, turkey, and a few other odds and ends.  I usually order the beef but will take bison to fill an order if they are running short.  My experience is that I do well on all red meats if the animal ate its natural diet of grass.  Chicken, turkey, fish and pork are OK but I prefer red meat.

People agonize over ground meat vs whole cuts, frozen vs fresh (whatever fresh means), cooked vs raw, and a host of other issues.  I tend not to worry over such trifles.  I must live in this modern world and there are no mastadons locally so I must have my meat shipped in.  This means its either frozen or rapidly rotting at something close to room temperature for several days during shipment.  I prefer frozen.  Whole cuts of roasts and steaks are expensive and add nothing to nutrition.  I choose course ground meat as it gives me something to chew, has the same nutritional value, and is far cheaper.  Several times per month I eat out and this means whatever meat is available will be cooked.  Sometimes I'm lucky and can get a really rare steak.  Other times I'm trapped with family who likes everything well done.  I just eat enough to be polite and then eat my normal food when I get home. It's not the stuff you do once or twice a month that will determine your success, it's what you do the other 90% of the time. 

Slankers are really nice folks are the the folks at US Wellness meats.  I find Slankers cheaper over all so tend to order from them the most.

I was a vegan/vegetarian for almost 20 years.  Suffered many health problems until I went Paleo.  I got most of my improvement while eating cooked paleo (about 80% meat/20% fruits and green veggies).  I then slowly reduced that amount of cooking I did until I was eating mostly raw.  My last move, about 3 years ago, was to try an all meat diet which I eat raw.  It has worked out so well that I've stuck with it.  Just understand that I'm more concerned with what works rather than what some guru tells me is best.  If I find that eating raw meat causes a problem in the long term, I'm not afraid to make the necessary changes to rectify the problem.

Here's a short bio if you haven't already read it. 

http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/lex-rooker/

You may also find my Journal on this forum interesting as I've recorded the results of experiments and changes I've made over time.

Lex

[Satya]

I was a vegan/vegetarian for almost 20 years.  Suffered many health problems until I went Paleo.  I got most of my improvement while eating cooked paleo (about 80% meat/20% fruits and green veggies).  I then slowly reduced that amount of cooking I did until I was eating mostly raw.  My last move, about 3 years ago, was to try an all meat diet which I eat raw.  It has worked out so well that I've stuck with it.  Just understand that I'm more concerned with what works rather than what some guru tells me is best.  If I find that eating raw meat causes a problem in the long term, I'm not afraid to make the necessary changes to rectify the problem.

Go Lex!  It has taken me over a year since I first read your compelling testimony to take the carnivorous plunge.  I still use herbs and spices, and I will allow 2 cheat days to eat a salad, seaweed or a couple of olives.  But this just rocks!  I am half raw, and all fired up!  I sleep so well and feel so good and exercise so hard.  Wow!  Maybe I will hit a stumbling block, but I doubt it with my activity level already high.

[lex_rooker]

Sounds like you are making progress Satya.   Just keep monitoring your body and do what it tells you is right in the long term.  I do find that most changes have both short term and long term effects.  Be sure to give each major change you make at least 3 months for your body to adjust.  By then any short term problems should have worked themsleves out and you should know what the long term effects will  be.  At that point you can decide whether to continue or abandon the change. 

Lex

[Satya]

Thanks for the advice, Lex.  I'll take it. 

Part of the reason for allowing a bit of low carb plant food in twice a week is just in case I do start to feel lethargic.  I will be taking over teaching a taekwondo class twice a week very soon.  I do not foresee a problem at all considering the energy I have now.  The other part of me wants a treat for my effort, lol.  I will eat oysters or liver on days I allot for carbs once in a while - Sat & Sun.  I will keep the carbs under 20 then, but I won't obsess too much, I will just take note for a bit while I get more adapted.

Not eating any plants is just super weird to me still.  But it's great, absolutely great!  I mean, I am getting a bit of carb in eggs and spices, but it is under 5 grams a day now.  Very good feelings so far this week.

[lex_rooker]

Satya,
Just remember that there is no magic to zero carb.  Who knows whether it is even desirable in the long term.  I'm sure there are many trade-offs and unfortunatelyl there is such a small pool of people like me that we don't have the luxury of the measure of an "average" population following this type of diet to know what to expect.

You're doing the right thing to take it slowly and monitor how you feel closely.  For me the point is to feel the best that I can for as much of the time as possible.  So far meat/fat only has worked exceptionally well for me but who knows what the future will bring.  In short I'm not doing this because I THINK it is right, I'm doing it becuase it is ACHIEVING positive results.

Lex

[Satya]

Lex, I feel very fortunate to have your experience in this matter.  Like you, I prefer results rather than wishful thinking.  I had 3 nights of really deep sleep, and I have lost 3 lbs this week.  We had to do a grueling kicking practice last night, and I felt great.  Maybe it's good I have a cheat day one or twice a week to slow things down if it gets too much too soon.  I will tightly limit what plants I eat and how much.  I feel I will naturally give these up over time.  I will keep you posted and have already started a journal on the other forum too.

Tim, I would say that if you are still eating fruits and vegetables, you may not need quite as much fat.  But then, you will need to experiment with yourself.  Read as much as you can of the posts here and ask a lot of questions.  Every one of us has a unique situation.  I would suggest that you see what feels good for you, and that may change over time.  Make sure it is not the mind telling you to eat something, but the body telling you.  This can be tough for people, especially those with eating disorders or those coming from unsustainable diets such as veganism (been there, done it and the raw vegan diet brought me back to meat 5 years ago).  For me, I am desiring much more fat in my diet right now, but this is because I need lots of fat to get fit and slim.  Today I am feeling the desire for raw steak, marrow and egg yolk.

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

I order course ground "chili" meat (usually beef but on occasion bison or other red meat), Dog & Cat food (has ground mix of organs as well as muscle meat), and suet from Slankers.

My normal mix is 2 lbs of chili meat (one package), mixed with 1 1/2 lbs dog & cat food (one package), and add about 1/2 lb of ground suet to raise the fat content a bit.  I eat about 2 lbs of this mix every day as my only food and I eat it raw.  I have been doing this for several years now.  The dog & cat food is rather strong tasting and takes a bit of getting used too, but now plain muscle meat seems very bland and I prefer a bit of the D & C mixed in.

whats the consistency of the chili meat and D&C food?

do you think that the D&C is strong tasting just because of the organ meats added in?

[Raw Kyle]

whats the consistency of the chili meat and D&C food?

do you think that the D&C is strong tasting just because of the organ meats added in?

Let me field this, YES. The D&C is very very organy and was hard for me to stomach. Not only are organs strong tasting, but the fact that they are all ground together is hard to get used to.

The consistency of D&C is like very soft ground meat, because most organs are softer than muscle meat the end result is softer than regular ground meat. The chili meat is like 1cm^2 pieces, or smaller, of muscle meat and fat.

[Matt51]

I enjoy rare steak, but even on sale steak is somewhat expensive. Have not tried to order grass fed, or eat raw yet. But for the budget, often I can buy chuck roast at $2 per lb on sale, which I can freeze. With all the collagen, I can't imagine eating this raw. However, slow cooking in a pan on the stove, with coconut oil or pork lard added, for 2-3 hours, gives a wonderful fatty meat meal. The meat has never been exposed to high temperatures. The juices in the pan make a good gravy, even without adding any corn starch.

[Raw Kyle]

The chuck might be chewable raw if you cut it into small pieces. If you know what you're doing and can cut it in strips against the grain that's the best way. I think that's what they use to make Korean yook hwe and that stuff is not chewy at all.

[wodgina]

I eat mostly ground beef which I enjoy. It's cheap and easy to chew. So you could just grind up the chuck.

I keep my food processor in the fridge (not the whole thing just the container) and haven't washed it for months. My fridge is really cold aswell.

[Matt51]

If you grind up your own meat, do you wash the outside of the meat first to kill bacteria? I see there is one chef now who uses a blow torch on his meat to brown it, then slow cooks it 10 hours at very low temp. If temp is low enough, would this be equivalent to eating raw?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/database/roastwingribofbeef_74821.shtml

[invisible]

No, cooking at lower temperatures is not the same as raw - not even close.

We don't wash the outside to kill bacteria for the following reason - the bacteria is not harmful, rather it is beneficial.

[Raw Kyle]

If you grind up your own meat, do you wash the outside of the meat first to kill bacteria? I see there is one chef now who uses a blow torch on his meat to brown it, then slow cooks it 10 hours at very low temp. If temp is low enough, would this be equivalent to eating raw?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/database/roastwingribofbeef_74821.shtml

Lower temps are better no doubt, but unless we're talking lower than 120 or so degrees Fahrenheit then there's still going to be damage done. There's information out there, maybe on this site, about which vitamins start to be damaged at what temps, and some of them are very low.

[Matt51]

They are talking 130F. A hot summer day in Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_temperature_cooking

[invisible]

The Bear said and I have seen others also say that once it's 40 celsius or 104 fahrenheit it's no longer raw

[Raw Kyle]

There is no hard definition of raw. At every temperature increase things change. All heat does is quicken chemical reactions. Even at 90 degrees Fahrenheit you will notice suet for example is easier to rub because the fat is warmer and starting to flow.

One question, have you ever felt 130 degree water? My rule would be to not cook your food in a temperature that you would consider burning, or that you would die if you were kept in. For me, that is raw, keeping food below the temperature that I find tends to cause death pretty quickly for many animals like myself.

[invisible]

I will just speculate on what I believe raw to mean. There is probably some particular temperature at which meat begins to lose nutrients, becomes harder to digest and enzymes are destroyed. Once it reaches this point - whatever it may be - it could no longer be called raw.Surely a piece of meat at 10 celsius and another at 30 celcius are both raw and have full nutrient values, enzymes intact etc despite the difference in temperature. Add another 20 degrees or so and the meat immediately begins to lose nutrients and becomes 'cooked' despite increasing temperature by the same amount.