Author Topic: More proof that the fewer humans there are,the better it is for the environment  (Read 9200 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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Offline dariorpl

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What do you want the environment for if there are no humans around to enjoy it?

Also, I wonder why the boars seem unaffected by the radiation.
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Offline TylerDurden

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What do you want the environment for if there are no humans around to enjoy it?

Also, I wonder why the boars seem unaffected by the radiation.
What is wrong with the Earth's original human population in the Palaeolithic era? c.10 million, last I checked....
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline dariorpl

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What is wrong with the Earth's original human population in the Palaeolithic era? c.10 million, last I checked....

Nothing wrong... If you're a fan of constant war with outsiders, and constant torture, rape and murder within groups as a daily thing. Also say bye to all technology that requires tools more complex than those made entirely out of stone and wood. Meaning no clothes other than animal furs, no homes other than caves or perhaps huts, no hot baths or showers unless you just happen to live by one of the rare hot springs that exist.
We now live in a world where medicine destroys health, law destroys justice, education destroys knowledge, government destroys order, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and banking destroys the economy

Offline TylerDurden

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Not necessarily.... the advance of formerly "eradicated" diseases is just one indication thereof..... Perhaps the future Earth can handle a few 50 or less  million of humans at  tech-stage 4 or 5 instead of just 3:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3525327/Scientists-claim-game-changing-reverse-photosynthesis-provide-pollution-free-energy.html
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline dariorpl

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Technology requires lots and lots of people interacting and seeking a profit in order to come into existence, especially because each piece of technology requires lots of other technological features to be in existence, not only in order to produce the given piece, but also so that this piece of technology becomes relevant and useful. If you give a computer to a caveman, even if you explain to them everything about how it works, they would have no use for it. Let alone a single piece of technology within a computer, such as a microchip.

I'm not a fan of Milton Friedman (he was in essence just another socialist), but this 2 minute piece should illuminate what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67tHtpac5ws
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Offline TylerDurden

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This is a highly debatable view. It is only necessary for multitudes to invent/design a new technology after a certain point in historical development. Usually, up to that point, it just requires a single individual(eg:- Leonardo Da Vinci/Newton etc. etc.). It is true that current technological trends require that further technologies require ever  higher numbers of scientists to participate in them, which, inevitably, means that a permanent technological "Dark Age" is soon to appear, followed eventually by human extinction. If further human technologies can appear  as invented by single individuals, then the Human Singularity is distinctly possible. Otherwise not....
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Technology requires lots and lots of people interacting and seeking a profit in order to come into existence, especially because each piece of technology requires lots of other technological features to be in existence, not only in order to produce the given piece, but also so that this piece of technology becomes relevant and useful. If you give a computer to a caveman, even if you explain to them everything about how it works, they would have no use for it. Let alone a single piece of technology within a computer, such as a microchip.

I'm not a fan of Milton Friedman (he was in essence just another socialist), but this 2 minute piece should illuminate what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67tHtpac5ws

This I agree with.

This is a highly debatable view. It is only necessary for multitudes to invent/design a new technology after a certain point in historical development. Usually, up to that point, it just requires a single individual(eg:- Leonardo Da Vinci/Newton etc. etc.). It is true that current technological trends require that further technologies require ever  higher numbers of scientists to participate in them, which, inevitably, means that a permanent technological "Dark Age" is soon to appear, followed eventually by human extinction. If further human technologies can appear  as invented by single individuals, then the Human Singularity is distinctly possible. Otherwise not....

Oh come on Tyler, the single individual does not get his ideas from thin air... he stands on the shoulders of great people before him... has to interact with peers, is supported by an entire civilization that fed and educated him.

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Offline goodsamaritan

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3524770/Radioactive-wild-boar-contaminated-Fukushima-disaster-causing-havoc-Japanese-communities-breeding-unhindered-exclusion-zone.html

As to the claim that "hunters cannot kill the boars fast enough"... geezzz, get a couple of avid Filipino hunters and trappers who will sell the meat to pork loving Filipinos.

Quote
Tests carried out on the meat of the wild boars in the area found levels of the radioactive element caesium-137 which are 300 times higher than the legal limit for human consumption.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3524770/Radioactive-wild-boar-contaminated-Fukushima-disaster-causing-havoc-Japanese-communities-breeding-unhindered-exclusion-zone.html#ixzz4541Z1qOr
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I'm wondering what would happen to the humans eating this meat.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Whether you like it or not, GS, most human inventions/ideas have come from single individuals. Only until very recent times, have more individuals been needed in order to create further technological marvels. This signifies eventual technological stagnation in perpetuam.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Whether you like it or not, GS, most human inventions/ideas have come from single individuals. Only until very recent times, have more individuals been needed in order to create further technological marvels. This signifies eventual technological stagnation in perpetuam.

You are obviously mistaken.

As I've said before, that single individual was raised by a village, a city, a civilization.

Most of your great scientists and great inventors of the most complicated kind... will not usually come from an isolated tribe.

The inventions today are made possible because we are BILLIONS strong.
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Offline dariorpl

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This is a highly debatable view. It is only necessary for multitudes to invent/design a new technology after a certain point in historical development. Usually, up to that point, it just requires a single individual(eg:- Leonardo Da Vinci/Newton etc. etc.). It is true that current technological trends require that further technologies require ever  higher numbers of scientists to participate in them, which, inevitably, means that a permanent technological "Dark Age" is soon to appear, followed eventually by human extinction. If further human technologies can appear  as invented by single individuals, then the Human Singularity is distinctly possible. Otherwise not....

You miss the point entirely. Yes, Da Vinci invented a helicopter. But even he required a functioning global market (or at least european market) to be able to come up with this invention... And what's more important... Did he build a helicopter? No. It took centuries until the first such machine could be built, and it certainly wasn't a single person who built it.

Like it's explained in the video I linked, each individual part or tool required to make the helicopter took lots and lots of people each doing a different thing and it all being organized through the market system of prices and profit seeking. If all you have access to is that which you and your tribe can come up with, then all you can do is make stone and wood tools and items, with the addition of items like furs and whatnot. You can't even make a knife, let alone a house or a bath tub or even a piece of paper to write your blueprints on. Indeed even if you could build one of these individual things, most of them would be useless anyway. Because what use is a bath tub if you don't have water you can pump into it without having to carry it long distances in small containers, for example?
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Offline sabertooth

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This will always be a question of perspective, with no definitive answer.

Whats "best" for the environment depends upon what one presupposes the purpose of the environment is to begin with. There are as many ways to look at it as there are minds to think about it.

Is this earth a mere insignificant dust speck in a cosmic ocean that has some biochemical overgrowth we sentimentally refer to as life?

Is the primal nature of life on earth more precious or valuable than the ever evolving and expansive nature of the collective human entity which has emerged out of it ?

Is the emergence of humanity representative of the blossoming of the flower of life?

All living worlds undergo a genesis, maturation, and death, and the human explosion could be seen as the blooming of a rare and beautiful flower before the onset of death. Or perhaps a metamorphosis from one order of existence onto another, as in the story of the hungry Caterpillar) Even if one prefers to see masses of humans as maggots devouring a corpse that doesn't mean that there is something inherently catastrophic going on.

Living creatures devours other living creatures... those who are eaten are adsorbed by those who consume them....this is an integral part of an ongoing evolution. Humans have reached a level which in order to satisfy their megalomanian cravings of both biological and material resources, they are beginning to consume the entire environmental system which supported its evolutionary accent.

Whether this living world goes out in a bang or a whimper it can be seen a tragedy for those who chose to live and feel tragically about it.. The environment is only a temporary substrate which is there to be used....how it is to be "best" used is a mater of the individuals imagination. To me real tragedy is not that too many humans will somehow destroy the world before its time...its that too many humans are not more appreciative and respectful of the environment as they devour its spenders....too many will live and die without seeing themselves as ever evolving blossoming earth flower beings.


« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 03:02:56 am by sabertooth »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Oh come on Tyler, the single individual does not get his ideas from thin air... he stands on the shoulders of great people before him... has to interact with peers, is supported by an entire civilization that fed and educated him.

You are missing the point. ALL inventions or ideas ultimately came from single individuals, or, at the most, a very, very few highly intelligent people. It is only very recently that science prizes are far more likely to be shared between different individuals, for example. So, yes, a civilisation might feed and clothe a particular genius but they do not contribute or participate in his genius. So what if geniuses also relied on the past discoveries of various genius individuals in the past?
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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The inventions today are made possible because we are BILLIONS strong.

Not correct. In fact, according to Huebner the rate of progress is actually slowing down and has been for some time:-

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7616-entering-a-dark-age-of-innovation/

Numbers mean nothing, really. The Ancient Greeks lived in tiny city-states and produced, per capita, most of the scientific base we moderns now rely on.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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You miss the point entirely. Yes, Da Vinci invented a helicopter. But even he required a functioning global market (or at least european market) to be able to come up with this invention... And what's more important... Did he build a helicopter? No. It took centuries until the first such machine could be built, and it certainly wasn't a single person who built it.

Like it's explained in the video I linked, each individual part or tool required to make the helicopter took lots and lots of people each doing a different thing and it all being organized through the market system of prices and profit seeking. If all you have access to is that which you and your tribe can come up with, then all you can do is make stone and wood tools and items, with the addition of items like furs and whatnot. You can't even make a knife, let alone a house or a bath tub or even a piece of paper to write your blueprints on. Indeed even if you could build one of these individual things, most of them would be useless anyway. Because what use is a bath tub if you don't have water you can pump into it without having to carry it long distances in small containers, for example?
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter#Early_design

The point of the above link is that a series of individuals(occasionally 2 individuals), NOT teams, refined the helicopter over a period of centuries. And the vast masses of people simply are not needed. The Renaissance and the Enlightenment  had far faster scientific progress  than nowadays, for example.

Anyway, the more I look at this over-concreted world, the more I realise that everything good happened in palaeolithic times such as the low population, the diet, the exercise, etc. It is all downhill now with decreasing average hominid brain-size, people living in urban appartments in a way that reminds one of domesticated animals in kennels(I include myself, sadly). Whatever the case, though, one does not need  billions, or even millions,  of people in order to speed up technology, past historical examples basically prove that.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline dariorpl

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You are missing the point. ALL inventions or ideas ultimately came from single individuals, or, at the most, a very, very few highly intelligent people. It is only very recently that science prizes are far more likely to be shared between different individuals, for example. So, yes, a civilisation might feed and clothe a particular genius but they do not contribute or participate in his genius. So what if geniuses also relied on the past discoveries of various genius individuals in the past?

You are the one missing the point. Of course they participate! Put a modern genius in a Paleo HG tribe and he will be entirely useless. The geniuses in those circumstances are the handy artisans who can invent and make effective stone and wood tools, utensils and weapons, that's it!

Not correct. In fact, according to Huebner the rate of progress is actually slowing down and has been for some time:-

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7616-entering-a-dark-age-of-innovation/

Some of that is true and some of it isn't. Incidentally the cut off point he chooses is about the same time that the world entered the modern era of global democracy. But even though the democractic forces increasingly do a lot to hamper human achievement and progress, there has still been massive progress in many areas, because technology builds on itself, and because the world population has increased significantly, which both increases the efficiency of the global market, and provides more new minds to come up with new ideas. On the other hand, the democratic forces have made it so that much of the population growth has happened in anti-natural ways, where leeches are bred and producers are decimated, so that has the opposite effect. I would readily admit that anywhere from 1 to 3 billion people worldwide not only do not contribute to world progress, but actively hamper it, and the world would be much better off without them. But in fact the world would be even a lot better still if instead those people (or their roles in society) were replaced by roles like the ones that the rest of the world population has, the roles of the worker, of the farmer, of the businessman, the caring mother, of the inventor, the capitalist, the entrepreneur, the babysitter, the entertainer, etc, etc; instead of the roles of the welfare queen, of the politician, of the syndicalist, the thief, etc.

As far as patents go, that is a two edged measure, because patents are very damaging to productivity and progress, as they are essentially a government-granted monopoly, which is not what you want if you want further technological achievements. That is not to say that all information on how to produce all technology should be forcefully shared, producers have a right to hide these from competitors, but they don't have a right to threaten competitors with deadly force if they do figure out what they're doing and copy it. So while it could be that the number of patents in the US has declined because there are fewer inventions, it could also be that the State isn't upholding patents as strongly as it used to, and so fewer people are bothering to register new ones, and that would be a very good thing.

Numbers mean nothing, really. The Ancient Greeks lived in tiny city-states and produced, per capita, most of the scientific base we moderns now rely on.

Actually, the ancient greeks did not come up with any significant technological advances. That is partly because of the democratic elements in their society, but mainly because they were a heavy slave society. Societies with significant degrees of slave labor are noticeable for their lack of innovation even after hundreds of years.

Anyway, the more I look at this over-concreted world, the more I realise that everything good happened in palaeolithic times such as the low population, the diet, the exercise, etc. It is all downhill now with decreasing average hominid brain-size, people living in urban appartments in a way that reminds one of domesticated animals in kennels(I include myself, sadly). Whatever the case, though, one does not need  billions, or even millions,  of people in order to speed up technology, past historical examples basically prove that.

You are of course free to go live in the wild, there are plenty of places in the world where you can go and not be bothered by States, and where there is very little pollution from human activity. Being bothered by other tribes or dangerous animals is another matter. But the point is it makes no difference for you whether the world holds 7 billion people or 10 million, you can still go and live in pretty much the same way as you would've in paleo times. You can even take a lot of modern technology with you that will be useful in the wild, such as a knife, a bow and arrow, a rifle, material and tools to make and repair a roof and your clothes; containers to carry water and to store food, etc.
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Offline TylerDurden

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You appear quite confused. You are confusing education(re mention of artisans) with actual, creative intelligence. So, Leonardo Da Vinci inventing the helicopter  is way more useful to Mankind than a moron who has been educated for some years.

Re declining rate of progress:- It is not merely a  matter of patents. AI progress is slowing down as is progress re batteries and Gordon Moore, the inventor of Moore's Law has admitted that it is now virtually dead. People are always predicting human landing on Mars in 20-30 years time but it never happens etc. etc.

*sigh* This shows some ignorance. The ancient greeks invented most of the basic scientific discoveries  we now have. The whole point of the Renaissance was to recover what the ancient Greeks had discovered thousands of years ago. As regards technology, that is a different issue. That was mostly derived later, largely based on the scientific discoveries made by the ancient Greeks.

Living in the wild is no longer feasible. Too much interference from the various governments via endless laws etc. makes it  unfeasible and one needs vast wealth for a private island or whatever. Ah well, I am getting my yearly palaeoish fix by visiting the Vallee des Merveilles in the summer, I suppose it will have to do.One of the tiny parts of France still a little wild.

https://www.google.at/search?q=vallee+des+merveilles&client=opera&hs=Okp&biw=1024&bih=668&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjNrqrttvzLAhXQKCwKHdFlAI8Q_AUIBygB


« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 04:06:03 am by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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