Help with structuring diet around exercise....

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, so some of you may have have gathered from my first post that I am still new to the raw paleo way of dieting as I tried the whole high-carb, low-fat raw vegan beforehand.  I really need some input/advice as far as structuring my new diet though to maximize my goals in and out of the gym.  I know for a fact that my body was screaming for more fat when I was doing the whole high-carb, low-fat vegan thing.  I lost some weight but I'm sure some of it was muscle as well because I just had this scrawny look to me that wasn't all that appealing.  Now that I am eating raw paleo, I want to start incorporating more raw fats into my diet. I first want to share my goals with you guys so you can see what they are and then give some input based off of that. My goals are as follows:

-Currently 125 lbs, 5'6" female with about 16-17% bodyfat. Would like to cut a bit to about 13-14% while maintaining muscle.
-Would like to increase my PR's in the gym as well.
-Would like to consume between 30-50g of carbs while incorporating a mostly ketogenic diet.

Here is where I get confused and need your guys' help.  I have calculated that with caloric deficit, I need to be consuming about 1350 cals a day to lose weight. I was thinking of splitting my macros so that I get about 90-100g of protein, about 100-110g from fat, and only 20-30g of carbs a day...maybe up to 50g on some days.  I guess my goal is to get into ketosis but I'm wondering if the 20-50g of carbs will be a problem in keeping me out of ketosis.  I was planning on consuming some fruit or a baked and chilled sweet potato (resistant starch) before bed to help fuel my workouts in the morning which are fasted.  I am planning to eat a high fat and protein meal an hour or so after my workouts to replenish the muscles for optimal growth. But then, I get confused because I have heard that some people notice greater gains when consuming their carbs right after the workout as opposed to consuming a protein/fat meal? 

My daily routine is as follows:

-Train in a fasted state in the early morning before work.
-Eat my first meal (protein/fats) around 12-2pm.
-Eat my last meal around 8 or 9 pm (more protein and fats) followed by my 20-50g of carbs right before bed.

My questions are as follows:

-Even though I can feel my body wanting and needing the extra fat, will I put fat on while going from a moderate carb/fat/protein diet (currently) to a ketogenic diet as the body adapts to fat burning or will the shift just be apparent in some initial fatigue? I just don't want to take any steps backwards and gain more fat while trying to shed it.

-Will the 20-50g of carbs allow me to stay in ketosis?

-When would the best time to consume those carbs be...post-workout or right before bed to fuel the fasted workout?

-How long does it take to get into ketosis?

-What can I expect as far as training while on a keto-diet? 

-How long does it generally take for the body to adjust to a keto-diet?  Any cons of entering ketosis?

-Is a keto-diet optimal for cutting to the bodyfat percentage goal that I have or could I reach my goals while still consuming carbs?

The reason for me trying this keto-diet is that I noticed that anytime I consume carbs (especially in the form of fruit) I tend to over-eat them and then not have much room for fat/protein.  I really feel that increasing my fat intake will help with some hormonal issues that have cropped up from doing the high-carb, low-fat thing for a while.  I don't plan on staying in ketosis forever, just long enough to meet my goals. I would sure appreciate if any of you who are more experienced with bodybuilding/weightlifting and a ketogenic diet could critique my plan and hopefully give me some answers to my (many) questions lol. 
Thanks in advance!

[Projectile Vomit]

I responded to some of your questions in another thread, but thought I'd contribute here too. My answers are listed after your questions, which are in quotes below.

Even though I can feel my body wanting and needing the extra fat, will I put fat on while going from a moderate carb/fat/protein diet (currently) to a ketogenic diet as the body adapts to fat burning or will the shift just be apparent in some initial fatigue? I just don't want to take any steps backwards and gain more fat while trying to shed it.

If you are getting most of your calories from fat it's terribly hard for your body to store fat away. The biochemistry just doesn't favor it. A bigger question is whether or not you can meet your stated goals while staying ketogenic. Anaerobic workouts (like weight lifting) favor the burning of glucose, so if you aren't eating foods that can provide this glucose then there's a high likelihood that your body will start cannibalizing its stores of protein (aka muscle fiber) to turn into glucose through the process of gluconeogenesis. The end result is that you'll plateau in terms of your athletic goals and your physique even as you continue working out. I think you're much better off eating a modest amount of carbs, say 30-40 percent of your total calories. A ketogenic diet would be great if you were training to be an endurance athlete (i.e. doing aerobic exercise like long gentle runs or bike rides), but it doesn't work that well for anaerobic athleticism, in my experience.

I also don't see why you want to stay in calorie deficit. If you're working out hard, that is not the time to attempt a calorie restricted diet provided the calories you're eating are nutritionally useful.

-Will the 20-50g of carbs allow me to stay in ketosis?

Yes, but see above. I think you are undermining your training goals by trying to stay ketogenic.

-When would the best time to consume those carbs be...post-workout or right before bed to fuel the fasted workout?

I'd eat them about an hour before your workout, or right before bed if you intend to go into your workout fasted.

-How long does it take to get into ketosis?

It varies from person-to-person, and on whether you've been ketoadapted before. I'd guess 2-4 weeks.

-What can I expect as far as training while on a keto-diet? 

If you're doing aerobic training (gentle running, swimming, biking) then you will see slow but steady gains over a period of 3-6 months, then slower gains for perhaps the next few years as you ease towards your full potential. Your endurance will become amazing though, as long as you keep your heart rate low enough during exercise that your muscles remain in aerobic territory. On the other hand, if you're doing anaerobic training (sprints, weight lifting, CrossFit) you will feel terrible, and you might even pass out. Your strength gains will be far below potential and you'll probably plateau reasonably quickly, and you'll have trouble gaining muscle mass because your body will constantly cannibalize muscle tissue to turn into glucose. If your main workout regimen includes anything anaerobic, including weight training, I strongly advise against attempting to stay in ketosis. There is definitely a time for this style of eating and metabolism, but it's not for stretches where you're doing a lot of anaerobic work.

-How long does it generally take for the body to adjust to a keto-diet?  Any cons of entering ketosis?

2-4 weeks, in my experience. The only con is that you feel terrible for a while, but that passes. See my above comments about attempting to maintain an anaerobic training regimen while in ketosis though. Not recommended!

-Is a keto-diet optimal for cutting to the bodyfat percentage goal that I have or could I reach my goals while still consuming carbs?

I can't say whether it's optimal, but it can definitely work if coupled with aerobic workouts. If your goal is to do anaerobic workouts (weight lifting), I suggest more like a zone diet that advocates a 40-30-30 balance of carbs-protein-fat. When I first started CrossFit I tried desperately to stay in ketosis, and it was an epic fail. Only since transitioning towards more moderate amounts of carbs has my body adjusted to the rigors of CrossFit (and anaerobic training more generally). Since I transitioned, strength gains, lean muscle mass gains, and body fat loss have been swift.

[eveheart]

I haven't found the "calorie deficit" style of dieting to be at all effective for weight loss. I consider the whole field of caloric-deficit-for-weight loss to be an ineffective trick to get the body to burn fat when it is in sugar-burning mode because there is too much circulating insulin.

If you aim for long-term ketosis, notice how your appetite normalizes your food intake. No more diet tracking!

When people urge you to find your own macro-nutrient balance, that's a good idea. My whole family, plus a few inlaws and many acquaintances, eat a paleo diet. Each person has a completely different carb profile that works for them. My daughter is low-carb, low-body fat, and eats green leafy vegetables like they are gong out of style. Her husband needs much less fat, but goes bonkers without his daily yam; he says he can't build muscle bulk without it. Some guy at the gym manages his type 2 diabetes by keeping under 180-grams of carbs per day, a carb load that would shoot my blood sugar through the roof. He tests in ketosis all the time.

I hope I've said enough to convince you to learn as you go and stop looking for someone else's solution. You'll still have some calculating to do to learn about keeping yourself in ketosis and attaining body-fat goals. There is nothing that is dangerous or uncorrectible on a daily or weekly basis. For example, let's say you are in ketosis but not losing any weight per week: the one thing you change is your protein level, not your daily calorie intake. Plus, you might need more protein, or you might need less, so more experimenting is needed.

There is a ton of online information about ketogenic eating. The body-builder forums will probably have good information about attaining a low-body-fat goal.

[HoneyBadger]

Eric- Thank you for the attention in detail when answering my post, found the replies to be very helpful! I hadn't quite understood that ketosis might not be ideal for the goals I listed while continuing bodybuilding.  I've decided to just take it easy for a bit and try and let my body instinctively guide me, as Eveheart suggested well, to what it wants/needs on a daily basis as far as my fat and carb ratios.  Maybe I will try manipulating my ratios to induce ketosis just for the heck of self-expirementation one of these days but I realize I probably need to slow my roll lol...I'm known for chewing off more than I can swallow haha, no pun intended!

[Satya]

Hi.  I am wondering why you would want to go lower in body fat.  Seems like you are already pretty lean.

In any case, along with what Eric and Eveheart have suggested, I find for me I am fine lifting and performing martial arts when I cycle carbs.  I follow IF too.  I just allow more carbs a couple days a week prior to lifting days.  I find ketosis is more a factor of my exercise levels more than strictly what I eat.  YMMV.

[HoneyBadger]

Satya- As far as to WHY I want to achieve a higher degree of leaness--I don't expect everyone to fully understand but reaching the aforementioned degree of leaness is merely a goal for me. I've worked very hard on my bodybuilding journey and just feel this is the next step. I don't plan to stay this lean for a long time but rather just want to see if I can get there, so to speak.

You mentioned that you employ carb-cycling?  I'm curious as to how you personally use carb-cycling (like which days your carbs are higher and typically what are your carb macros for low and high carb days)?  Do you feel your results have benefited from carb-cycling?

Hi.  I am wondering why you would want to go lower in body fat.  Seems like you are already pretty lean.

  I find ketosis is more a factor of my exercise levels more than strictly what I eat.  YMMV.

I'm not quite sure I understand the above-statement regarding ketosis as you mentioned previously that you carb-cycle? Can once still cycle carbs while in ketosis???

[sabertooth]

I have noticed while on ,low carb high fat, these last few years there has been on overall improvement in physical strength and well being, though there are some difference in regards to how exercise affects me, compared to when I was on carb heavy diets. It seems that both my ability to produce short burst of energy(needed to get the job done) have increased greatly, as well as the ability to engage in long low paced endurance task, like hiking or working construction....

I have had mild difficulty with the kind of moderate intensity level work outs, like playing basketball, or soccer for over a couple of hours. Too much aerobic work outs seem to drain my reserves and I will sometimes experience low blood sugar, though I remember often having similar symptoms when I was much younger and ate the typical diet.

An other positive when on low carb high fat raw paleo, there is a lot less demand on the body to go out and burn extra calories in order to stay lean. I seem to require a lot less effort to maintain muscle tone, after fewer high intensity workout.

There are millions of ways to structure diet and exercise...I say try out many combinations...and do whats most fun....ever try pole dancing?
You look so much like someone I used to train with, she was actually on a cooked low carb-ish diet that was heavy in sea foods like ceviche ...and talk about being lean and strong....she is a champion and has won competitions.

[HoneyBadger]

Sabertooth- I guess I'll just have to continue experimenting and adjusting my diet so what kind of benefits I notice in regards to exercise and my goals. You mention that you are low-carb...can I ask how much carbs you consume on the daily? Just curious

I have never tried pole-dancing but think it looks like a ton of fun! I had a friend who was a pole-dancer and she had a pole at home that she tried showing me a few tricks on. It was fun to learn some moves but it's a lot harder than it looks, that's for sure!

[sabertooth]

HoneyBadger- Being as finicky as a feline, my intake changes day to day, depending on many factors such as physical activity, weather, mood (and even catnip intake). On average I would say 30 to 50 grams of Carbs per day. There seems to be a preset limit of around 50, and when I begin to go over that limit, I will feel a "carb hangover". On the very rare occasions I ever carb Binged.. I will feel real good and buzz around like a happy squirrel, but then the next day feel terrible, and swear off the stuff...and fast a little in the morning, and usually by evening I have reset to Keto and feel fine.

Also important to consider when Low Carbing -Different kinds and combinations of carbs seem to effect energy levels, as importantly as total quantity eaten. I tend to avoid all high glycemic carbs...but recognize there are many differences in individuals metabolisms...that effect ones own optimal carb intake. From personal experience I find that higher glycemic carb foods like sweet fruit, starchy vegetables, or even milk, have a temporary effect of elevating energy, and increasing over all appetite, but after a couple of days of even somewhat small amounts of higher glycemic food interfere with my ability to digest raw fat and protein.

Roughly my carbs come from coconut butter eaten with meat meals, and the rest come from a variety of other sources, mostly in the form of a mixed salad eaten late afternoon a couple of hours before my evening meal. These salads have become my most decadent food, with tomatoes, avocados, garden greens, garden roots, herbs, sea weed, a splash of apple cider vinegar, a tiny dash of grated cheese, homemade jerky bits etc....

 

[HoneyBadger]

Sabertooth- "Finicky as a feline..." eh? lol I see what you did there   I have been experimenting with different carbs (high glycemic etc) and find that the higher the glycemic index, the worse I feel in a couple of hours after my blood sugar falls again. I have been so accustomed to eating super sweet fruit after being on the HCLF vegan diet and I think it got to the point of addiction, that and without having much fat for energy, high sugar fruits were what got me through the day. Lately, I have been trying to stay away from sweeter fruits though and have been eating a lot more fats (both plant and animal) along with veggies in place of the fruits. I find my energy to be much more stable and I don't experience the huge sugar crashes. I've been finding that a salad in the late afternoon followed by a large meal of meat and fat in the evening suits me very well and keeps my hunger to a minimum. I feel much more satisfied when I eat more fat so I think my body is naturally gravitating towards ketosis or a near ketosis state as I have been recording my intake and finding that I tend to naturally consume between 30-80 g of carbs and mostly from coconut butter, avocados, and my greens. I still need to find my optimal macro ratio but am choosing to just give my body what it craves which appears to be more fat and meat.  Perhaps my body will want more carbs in the future, time will tell.

By the way, your description of your salad had me drooling! I really like all the add-ins you mentioned and might try re-creating such a salad once I get off work today haha!

[HoneyBadger]

Also, I find that without counting calories, I naturally eat around 1300-1500 calories...depending on different factors.  Like I mentioned above, I find that a large salad followed by a fat and meat meal is typically enough to satisfy me for the day. However, because I am very active (both at work and the gym) I am wondering if I am getting enough calories in?  I also am wondering if I am getting enough protein and fat. My carbs are generally between 30-80g depending on the day, fat is usually between 80-100g and protein is typically between 50-70g. I have been feeling a bit fatigued lately but am confused as to whether this might just be my body adapting to less carbs or if it's because my calories are too low?

[cherimoya_kid]

I would recommend eating at least 3x daily for an active person. You will eventually experience adrenal fatigue and burnout if you don't eat often enough to match your activity level. We've had several people here who made that mistake, including me, Jessica, and Yuri. Especially Yuri.

[HoneyBadger]

Cherimoya-Kid: I eat two big meals a day, my salad and then my final meal consisting of fat and meat. Sometimes I will snack on some veggies/fruit or some fatty foods in between if I get really hungry. I just find that I am typically satiated eating this way and this amount. I don't eat in the mornings because it leaves me feeling lethargic and heavy the rest of the day.  You mentioned several other forum members not eating enough and experiencing adrenal burnout. I definitely don't want to be a part of that camp but am really confused with how much I should/shouldn't be eating. I've always read (and experienced this for myself) that one can only really lose weight by eating in a caloric deficit. I just don't know if need to be eating more calories since the raw food is better assimilated by the body or if I should stick to my current caloric deficit in order to achieve my bodyfat goals?

[cherimoya_kid]

Adrenal burnout is controlled just as much by frequency of eating as by total calories. Eat meat to about 95% of fullness, and fat to about 105% of fullness. Sweet fruit should be eaten to about 65% of fullness. I mean the Instincto "taste change" when I use the word "fullness".

[Brad462]

Adrenal burnout is controlled just as much by frequency of eating as by total calories. Eat meat to about 95% of fullness, and fat to about 105% of fullness. Sweet fruit should be eaten to about 65% of fullness. I mean the Instincto "taste change" when I use the word "fullness".

How do you know if you have adrenal burn out?  Think I might have this...

[cherimoya_kid]

How do you know if you have adrenal burn out?  Think I might have this...

Exhausted all the time. Dark circles under eyes. Potbelly on a thin frame.

[sabertooth]

HoneyBadger-  It would seem like you have a very good start and are already figuring out what took me and many others years to understand. I would advise if you want to keep lean, just keep doing what your doing, and give it some time. Keep carbs low and fats high, hone the instinct to seek the right balance of all nutritional requirements, keep a good balance between exercise and rest, and a lean and strong body will occur of its own accord, without having to restrict calories, micro managing ratios or over exercising.

I would recommend eating at least 3x daily for an active person. You will eventually experience adrenal fatigue and burnout if you don't eat often enough to match your activity level. We've had several people here who made that mistake, including me, Jessica, and Yuri. Especially Yuri.

I have had issues with fatigue when not eating enough on the days when I am working my hardest.

Typically I only eat twice a day, "but" these two meals are often eaten over a long period of time. I also have issues with eating too much too early in the day, it makes me lethargic. I often will start the day with a couple of raw eggs with a glass of lime water then take a small meal before starting my work around 10 and will often save a few chunks for a power snack around noon. I try not to eat anything else after noon until the late afternoon salad when I get home from work. I will wait until I feel hungry again to begin the main meal that contains a little over half of my daily calorie intake, usually a couple of hours or so while I am blogging ( Right now I am just savoring some of my newest Ram just slaughtered today.

Though I often consider my self as only eating two meals a day, from reading the description of how my meals are spread out, it would seem that I eat all day long.

[Satya]

Hi HoneyBadger.  Been tied up with some family summer fun, so I am a bit late in replying.  What I do in terms of carb cycling is I eat more in the way of fruit or starchy veg on the evening prior to lifting (depending on what kind of split I am doing).  I probably eat between 20-50g carbs most days, and then maybe as high as 75-85g before lifting, so not a huge difference.  But I do find the increase in carbs the day before lifting heavy does give me more energy to complete the workout.  Lifting is anaerobic after all.  I was too low carb too long and suffered adult onset food allergies a few years ago.  Hives, not just intolerance.  This coincided with a long vlc stint of 5 years.  So I am simply not going to go too low carb anymore, as it was problematic for me.

Like you, I eat twice a day mostly, yet I am highly active.  I find this suits me, although I do eat 3 meals sometimes if I am lifting in the morning.  I usually workout totally fasted, but I may have something high protein right after that.  I am not 100% raw right now, btw, but I do thrive on a high raw plan and have for years.  I play racquetball, run and perform martial arts in addition to lifting 3-4 days a week.

In terms of ketosis and activity, I have found that the level of activity I have does influence ketones spilled into urine as much or moreso than food choices.

Disclaimer: I am an ACSM CPT with over 20 years experience, and while I do not give advice for free over the interwebs, I do have some experience to share.  In terms of getting my clients or myself lean, I find that creating a small calorie deficit, building a good base of muscle and ensuring adequate protein seems to be the ticket generally for getting lean - which means maintaining or even increasing lean body tissues while at the same time losing fat.  Most of my clients over the years have been women.  But I generally train people for health, not for competitions.  I'm sure you are aware that women can end up with hormonal imbalances that can cascade to a whole list of problems when achieving too low a body fat - which is also a somewhat individual thing.  So while you may have a goal in mind, I would hope you would pay attention to your health as your body composition changes and back off if/when you notice any adverse symptoms.

I think the advice that many have offered to find what works for you personally is so important.  And to not micromanage, like Sabertooth says.

[HoneyBadger]

Satya- Thank you the reply! I found it very helpful for my specific bodybuilding goals. I do have a few questions regarding your method of carb-cycling. You mentioned that you add some fruits or starchy veggies to your higher carb days and I'm wondering if you might be able to share what fruits and starchy veggies you add in as I feel I could probably benefit from doing the same thing?
I have been thinking of trying to implement a CKD and my thoughts are that I will try and add in at least 2 higher carb days, especially on my heavy leg days. You mentioned that you do roughly the same thing but I'm wondering, if I eat low carb (20-30g) for 5-6 days then eat higher carbs on my other 1-2 days, will this kick me out of ketosis?

I appreciate the feedback! I, too, am a certified personal trainer but only through ACE so although I feel I have a good understanding of the mechanics behind weight-lifting, I don't have much more than personal experience when it comes to structuring a diet around workouts.

[Satya]

Ace is great, HoneyBadger!  Ok, what I do is eat fruit at night with the last meal, and/or veg like beets and carrots.  Nuts on salads are good too.  Dairy is an option too if that works for you.  So, for instance, I may have melon, berries or tropical fruits like papaya and mango.  Maybe in some raw milk kefir, coconut or almond cream.  This I do twice a week before heavy lifting days.  I work back and legs together 2x a week right now, and it is before those days that I do this.  I may slide out of ketosis for a few hours sometimes, but I get right back in after this workout every time. 

Of course, there is a lot of science that supports a post workout meal of proteins and carbs for muscle protein synthesis, but I tend to not follow this.  <-- This is not proven (see link below), but it gets talked about a lot.  Protein post workout has been shown to increase muscle protein synthesis, but carbs too is inconclusive, apparently.  What I do is I get glycogen stores filled before the workout, and then I go right back into ketosis (if I ever left it) and follow the workout with eggs, fish, meat and/or whey protein in almond milk.  And I eat some salads too as inclined, but that is it.

The thing I find about not eating enough carbs to fuel strength training and other anaerobic pursuits is that I will end up using protein (and to some extent other sources) to create glucose (gluconeogenesis) to fuel these sorts of pursuits, which can mean I end up needing a ton of protein to 1) meet energy demands, and 2) grow muscle.  As a martial artist I saw this first hand going vlc.  I actually was not as lean on all animals foods with some herbs until I really upped the protein and/or added more plant foods in cyclically.  And I also had to reduce HIIT and do more steady state low intensity cardio or I was in a catabolic state.  Dairy is on again off again, but if you tolerate it, it can be a good source of some animal carbs, as are shellfish like clams and oysters and organs like liver.  My leanest in the last decade was when I was vlc eating lots of seafoods and grassfed ruminant meats and organs.  But then I ended up with health problems going too low carb too many years, so I had to back off of that plan as a long term solution.  Having a beet red face for several weeks due to developing food allergies is not worth it for me.  YMMV, of course.  And it's not like you have to eat one certain way forever either.  You can try one thing and see how it goes towards your goal.  And in this case, temporarily tracking can help you to see what is working for you ... so long as you don't become too obsessive about it.  Knowledge is good, but micromanaging every morsel is not healthy imo.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850644/

[HoneyBadger]

Satya- Thank you so much for the thoughtful response! I found it very helpful! I didn't know it was so easy to go back into ketosis and that is somewhat comforting to know it won't take another couple of days to get back into ketosis.

I'm curious though, how long were you VLC before you started noticing health issues? This is something I'd definitely like to avoid as I have heard that more females seem to have issues with VLC long term. Also, can I ask how many carbs you tend to consume on your carb-load days vs. your VLC days? Thanks so much!

[Satya]

I was vlc from 2009 onward.  Got health problems in 2014, which may have been triggered from other sources too, but they were consistent with other vlcers' symptoms of food allergies, dry eyes and some others I have since forgotten.  That said, I do fine low carb.  Carbs on higher carb days are under 100 grams, probably 80ish?  25-50 other days.  So not a huge difference, really.

[HoneyBadger]

Thank you for the reply Satya, I think I'll try to stay within those ranges you provided for a while and see how my body responds. Another question: I know that having too high of protein intake can cause some of the protein to be turned into glycogen in a kerogen if state. I've been keeping my protein around 30-40% of my overall calories which works out to between 80-100g of protein.  I typically shoot for fat being between 60-70% which works out to roughly 100-120g of fat. Do you think those ratios look ok for maintaining a state of ketosis?

[eveheart]

You got me wondering, HB...

There is no way for someone else to tell you if you are staying in ketosis, and you have asked about this a few times, so I'm wondering if you are testing your urine (or blood) to see if you are in ketosis. You can measure this with reagent strips, sold as Ketostix or generic equivalents.

Forgive me if I've come to the wrong assumption, but testing for urine ketones (cheap and easy, but you only get an average ketone level since your last pee) or blood ketones (more expensive but more accurate, I've never done this because I don't need that much accuracy) lets you correlate your carb intake to your level of ketosis.

I don't test all the time, but if I get to wondering, I use a fresh reagent strip and see what's going on. If you read about ketosis, this is what they mean about "being in the purple zone." The strip color goes from off-white to various shades of pink and purple when you have ketones in your urine.