Update: positive benefits noticed following higher fat and meat diet!

[HoneyBadger]

So lately, I've really been trying to listen to my body and give it what it craves, I've been eating high fat content beef, coconut meat, coconut butter, coconut oil, grass-fed butter, tallow and realize from tracking what I've eaten that my carbs are generally 20-30g. I feel AMAZING! Don't know if ketosis has set in or not because I've only noticed being dizzy on rare occasion and feeling a bit fatigued at times. However, the extra fat and reduction in carbs has done magnificently for me! I notice changes fairly quickly in my body and have noticed a much more peaceful mindset, greater strength/energy at the gym, more lean muscle definition, hair and skin are beginning to get lustrous and strong (both were extremely dry from going low fat for even a few months), and satiety that lasts for much longer than carbs ever provided me! Just wanted to share some progress that I'm very happy with...I love this way of eating!

[Projectile Vomit]

I had that experience too when first starting a very low carb, high fat diet. In my experience it lasts for a month or three, then diminishes. I suspect the euphoria comes from finally giving our bodies the building blocks they so desperately needed for such a long time, particularly fat soluble vitamins and cholesterol which are both vital to our hormonal systems. This is particularly true for those who venture into VLC/HF after spending a prolonged period as a vegan or vegetarian.

Once our body's stocks of these fat soluble vitamins and building blocks are built back up the metabolic costs associated with this diet start to overwhelm the benefits, and it's time to make some changes.

[HoneyBadger]

Hi Eric, I'm curious as to what you mean by:

"Once our body's stocks of these fat soluble vitamins and building blocks are built back up the metabolic costs associated with this diet start to overwhelm the benefits, and it's time to make some changes. "

I thought that a lot of folks here were either ZC or low-carB and had been doing very well for several years following such a diet? 

[TylerDurden]

Actually, while this used to be the case, a number of former RZC die-hards have regretted their stance and shifted towards more raw carbs. Not all, but a lot..

[sabertooth]

I will concur with Eric and TD that to some extent many people who have enormously positive short term benefits on Very Low Carb, seem to hit a point where their bodies cant keep it up over long periods of time.

That being stated, I do not believe that there is some universal biological imperative which makes Very Low Carb diets unsustainable in the long term. What I see is that most people who fail are not going far enough to ensure an optimal balance. There are a number of factors involved which if understood more fully could help people maintain the benefits of Low Carb/ High Fat more optimally.

You cant simply use cuts of muscle meat and fat trimmings with some occasional organ meats and think you can build a complete optimal long term Low Carb diet upon such an incomplete foundation. As one of the few long experienced Very Low Carbers , the only way I have able to make this work for the long term is to eat the entire animal. Much in the same way the Reindeer herders are able to live almost entirely off of meat based diets, by eating the entire animal.

I drink the Blood, eat the brains, tongue, eyes, marrow, glands, gonads, intestines, stomach...practically everything expect the bones and hide...many Low Carb people are unable or unwilling to take it to that level of commitment, and fail to maintain optimal wellness as a result. Though I have moved away from AV style high meat, I will eat aged meats regularly as well as unwashed intestine smoothies, also my greens are grown with animal compost, so I would say that over the years my gut flora have optimized to this diet in ways that more antiseptic dieters may not have been able to?

There are indeed many factors that if understood could explain why some people adapt better than others.. genetics, epi-genetics, microbiome composition, for example.

Many people harbor bad habits which may not get discussed that sabotages the success of Low Carb Paleo. Two much sweet reliance on sweet fruits, starchy foods, nuts seeds, or stubborn use of Dairy, supplements, stressful lifestyle... and so on....

I am an advocate for quality, and most grassed meat and fat on the market does not have the qualities needed to sustain a ling term extremely Low Carb Diet. Bad water, wormer/drugs/vaccines, poor breeding, overgrazing, sub quality hay will all take its toll on the health those up the food chain.  Typically cows feed hay and limited forage have a much less optimal protein and fat composition. Animals slaughtered too young do not have optimal micro nutrient content( CLA, DHA, Carotene, etc). I also consume a lot of Mutton which is suppose to have a Higher DHA content than beef. These factors of good quality, and good variety are also of the utmost importance

Ive preached over the years how (for me personally) Coconut Butter has played a key role in my diet. There is a synergy coconut fat has when consumed with copious amounts of animal fats and proteins. I believe it adds balance, and primes my metabolism toward optimal fat assimilation. The coconut carbs are extremely low glycemic, and the fiber may act in the way that Resistance starch in supporting a healthy gut flora balance. Many others on this forum have not seemed as impressed as I with this combination, so I have been left wondered if it would be possible for someone else to share this affinity? hmmmm.....Perhaps this HoneyBadger will be my first disciple?

[Projectile Vomit]

I thought that a lot of folks here were either ZC or low-carB and had been doing very well for several years following such a diet? 

What Geoff (TylerDurden) said. While there are a couple people who've managed to make VLC work over the longer term, they are a tiny minority. Most of us have backed far off that. As someone who is into athletics myself, I've transitioned to something more akin to the Zone Diet with respect to macro ratios, around 40-30-30 favoring carbs. I do go through stretches of maybe a few weeks to a month where I'll go back to VLC, but that's only temporary.

[Projectile Vomit]

And reflecting on Sabertooth's post, I think we all have a lot to learn about the nutritive value of food, especially raw food. A lot of the 'common sense' that goes along with nutrition emerged in an era where people made a lot of assumptions about what the human body needed and how to deliver those nutrients, and I suspect that a lot of this 'common sense' goes unchallenged and unexamined even among long-time contributors to this forum. The fact that we're even having a conversation about macronutrient ratios proves this point. Carbs are not carbs are not carbs, fats are not fats are not fats, and protein isn't protein isn't protein. There are so many nuances within each of those broad classes of macronutrients that can make a huge difference in how they're metabolized (or not) and how readily our bodies can extract energy and other nutrients from them. If we had a wealthy benefactor who could offer a few million $$$ we could organize some amazing and informative experiments, and learn so much. And there is a lot left to learn, in my opinion.

[TylerDurden]

SB makes a very good point that most of us RVAFers do not really eat a genuinely high-quality RVAF diet such as found in palaeo times. Take me for example:- I simply cannot "grow" "high-meat" for more than  c. 1 month a year or my visitors/guests would scream bloody murder at the smell. Similiarly, I have even worse luck than in the UK as regards obtaining raw organ-meats, even raw wild organ-meats. That, however, may change in the next few months.

[HoneyBadger]

Sabertooth- I'm honored you think I might make a decent disciple! haha  I definitely hear you on how the quantity and quality of a VLC diet would impact how long one is able to manage and sustain such a diet. At this point, I feel I am getting a good mix of quality animal meat and fat as long as I throw in some coconut products as well (coconut butter, meat, etc.). If I start noticing that my health is taking a hit, I may try to incorporate more organ meats and whatnot...perhaps I will adjust mentally in this aspect as well as right now I do not really care for organs all that much and haven't tried bone marrow. It would make perfect sense though that one would have to eat more of the whole animal in order to stay on a VLC diet long-term.
Do you guys think that maintaining a VLC diet is a wise idea for a female? Seems most of the VLCers here are or were males. Just wondering if this is even something I should consider doing seeing as that female hormones and genetic makeup is quite different than that of males and therefore the diet could effect me differently long term?

[Projectile Vomit]

You might reach out to Inger through the forum's message system. She's the only long-term female VLCer that I know of, either on this forum or on others I've visited at various points. She'd be a great sounding board for some of your ideas. She lives in northern Europe, I believe.

[HoneyBadger]

Eric-Thank you for the info! I will try to contact Inger to ask her some more questions!

[sabertooth]

I agree with Eric.....Inger is great, and a real raw paleo wild woman....she would be the one to reach out to for any woman wanting to make Long Term, Low Carb Raw Paleo Work. She also advocates a more holistic approach, which goes beyond diet. Living in sync with rhythm of the earth, bathing in the sun, living a life of love and light.

SB makes a very good point that most of us RVAFers do not really eat a genuinely high-quality RVAF diet such as found in palaeo times. Take me for example:- I simply cannot "grow" "high-meat" for more than  c. 1 month a year or my visitors/guests would scream bloody murder at the smell. Similiarly, I have even worse luck than in the UK as regards obtaining raw organ-meats, even raw wild organ-meats. That, however, may change in the next few months.

Ive been pondering...... in regards to how during the late Paleo to early neolithic era, much of humanity lost their adaptation to ZC in the face of rapid dietary changes. The ablity to thrive on a nearly carnivorous diet has been attained by a number of different human groups and was likely very trendy for many of the ice aged sub groups. There were very special preconditions which were necessary for optimal functioning for these carnivorous groups, and I believe many of these condition have been so far removed from much of the gene pool of modern man, that most` people may no longer be able to epi-genetically re-adapt to Very low carb meat based diets.

Consider the apex ZC ice aged Cro magnon, a truly remarkable specimen, which evolved in a world of bountiful megafuana on land and fatty fish by sea. I know there must of been a number of factors which lead to their decline, but for the sake of this discussion some generalization must be accepted.... imagine how their Metabolic system was prime so long as the Mega fuana fat and was in unlimited supply. But these very prime beings became too dependent upon the fat of the land, they had to eat copious amounts, and were especially found of the Brains, organs and other fatty tissues...they also had a taste for high meats and grazed on a myriad of other low carb plant foods which balanced out thier diets. But eventually the mega fauna died out and the land could no longer support such demanding creatures, and without the fat of the land many such tribes were withered and weakened and eventually gave way to the leaner tribes from the south whom were much better adapted to living omnivorously. These newer breeds could do much better on the leaner game meat supplemented with more carb heavy foods than the ZC tribes of yore.

Still up to a certain point even these Neo Paleo people had latent genetics which enabled them to live(if need be) on ZC for extended periods as long as the right conditions were present....though eventually most of the wild tribes people gave way to the Neolithic way and no longer was there opportunity to reactivate the Latent ZC genetics, fewer and fewer humans lived as their paleo ancestors, virtually nobody scavenged rotten corpses for high meat....In the new world carb addiction set in and swept across the world like a plague. An ignorance of the old ways possessed the great number of city dwellers to such an extent that when the locust came and ate all the grain, people where too ignorant to realize that they could eat the locust, and many starved....but the ones who survived these trials and tribulations of early civilization gained the adaptations by which most modern people still use to this day to enable them to live on Grain based diets.

Perhaps people with ancestors who have had the most domestication are those who are furthest removed from their ZC heritage, and therefore have the most trouble attempting to reactivate a fat based metabolic system? Perhaps there are some who are not nearly as far removed from the wild? Perhaps others possess some X factor which enables them to easily adapt to the most extreme of conditions, these rare individuals are like the X-men; these mutants who may hold the key to the next phase of human evolution.

If only a new stain of humans could be established that was once again able to fully activate the Latent ZC beast within. Imagine a being comprised of 50 trillion cells, filled to the brim with the most efficient fat burning mitochondria ever evolved. If the DNA chain of such a being had the most complete and limitless source of the Rawest and purest sustenance to build itself upon, then who knows what sort of quantum evolutionary leaps would have in store.   

[svrn]

coconut meat, coconut butter, coconut oil, grass-fed butter, tallow.

i would ditch all the coconut stuff you have there and replace it with coconut cream made with a green star juicer. Coconut meat is extremely fibrous and will interfere with your meat digestion by alkalizing your gut, primitve people know to chew the coconut meat and spit out the pulp you could do that too. coconut butter and coconut oil are almost impossible to find raw no matter what the packaging says. Coconut oil is not really fat, coconut cream is only about 15% oil, it is a much different and better product even than 100% raw fermented coconut oil which is mostly for serious cleansing.

The grass fed butter is hopefully raw, if not id find raw butter and the tallow is definitly not raw. Id try to go full raw if I were you it is much better.

[jibrael]

What to do with the BAD coconuts?

I bought coconuts from different sources, but 60% to 80% were always bad. I don't know how to come over this problem.

Is it normal? Do you also get such big numbers of bad coconuts?

[svrn]

Never such much bad coconuts for me.

Unless you are tossing the whole thing because there is a moldy part. There are moldy parts to most coconuts. Icut those out and juice the good parts. When juicing make sure the coconut meat is about 80 degrees becaue you will get much less cream if it is cold. one good way to do that is just let the meat soak in warm water not to hot for your hand to be submerged in it without pain. THen run it through the juicer multiple times.

[jibrael]

Never such much bad coconuts for me.

Unless you are tossing the whole thing because there is a moldy part. There are moldy parts to most coconuts. Icut those out and juice the good parts. When juicing make sure the coconut meat is about 80 degrees becaue you will get much less cream if it is cold. one good way to do that is just let the meat soak in warm water not to hot for your hand to be submerged in it without pain. THen run it through the juicer multiple times.

Thanks svrn. Your provided details are very valuable about juicing the coconut.

My method of checking is to drink the water of ripe brown coconut. If water is good, then I eat the coconut. But if water is bad, then I throw away the whole coconut.

The bad coconut water (or bad coconut itself too) give me diarrhoea, even in small quantities.

[svrn]

Do not throw away the whole coconut because because of bad water or moldy parts. If there's good meat you can use it regardless of whats happening in the rest of the coconut.

Moldy coconut isnt bad for you, it just produces a much stronger detox.

Diarreah is good, sometimes it just gets in the way of your life though and you dont have time for such strong detox, but the result will only be positive.

Im currently having trouble with any raw eggs as they make me detox too much so im not eating them again until i have time to be somewhat incapacitated while the eggs pulls out whatever they are working on. I will however happily push through the diarreah for cleansing when i have the time.

[jibrael]

Do not throw away the whole coconut because because of bad water or moldy parts. If there's good meat you can use it regardless of whats happening in the rest of the coconut.

Moldy coconut isnt bad for you, it just produces a much stronger detox.

Diarreah is good, sometimes it just gets in the way of your life though and you dont have time for such strong detox, but the result will only be positive.

Im currently having trouble with any raw eggs as they make me detox too much so im not eating them again until i have time to be somewhat incapacitated while the eggs pulls out whatever they are working on. I will however happily push through the diarreah for cleansing when i have the time.

Your provided informations are very much appreciated svrn. Thanks a lot.