Insulin, Growth Hormone, bulking

[wodgina]

Paleolithic man would of been muscular without exercise. Bones dug up showed there were built stronger than us, taller and with bigger brains.

Invisible, you seem incredibly wise for a 20 year old!

[Guittarman03]

when or if paleo man did these exercises such as lifting things, I doubt they did them how bodybuilders do them today. I don't think they would have done sets of a few reps until they reach complete failure. Even natural exercises such as body weight exercises can be adjusted to be done unnaturally.

They would have lifted things they could lift, not with ease, but without absolutely exhausting themselves, or they would lift things working together. They did exercise that maintained a functional well developed lean physique but did not do things that would stimulate a constant increase in muscle size.

I've gotta disagree.  Think of treking, running with, and throwing a spear.  They would have done that motion repetitively to get good at it, and would have been strong to carry and throw as heavy one as possible to do more damage to the large game we hunted (applicable to clubs and bowstaff as well).  Also, think about taking down a 1000lb animal.  You're gonna have to transport that meat back to camp somehow.  Or what about having to climb up or down a cliff.  You would be doing set after set of "pull-ups," depending on the cliff (and where you live).  Or maybe lets say one of your buddies gets injured and you have to carry them.  Maybe solo carry them on your back, maybe a 2 person carry, depends on the situation.  Also, like most mammals do, I'm sure we would have wrestled plenty in our adolescent years, esp since that was before the advent of modern sports.  Wrestling makes you strong, and gives you a muscular build.

And considering the thicker and stronger bones, it seems likely that paleo men did the types of exercises that would give you good, solid muscle.  Why would they have had those bones and that build if it wasn't useful to their survival?  And muscle deteriorates quickly if not being used.  Again, the bones support the idea that strong muscles were used often by our paleo ancestors.

 

     

[invisible]

I agree that paleo man did do such exercises as you described. But these exercises aren't actually going to build huge physiques. Carrying a man on your back, carrying meat, running with a spear is not that difficult to do, but to do it over long distances is - but this type of exercise doesn't build bodybuilding physiques like extremely intense short burst muscle hypertrophy exercises do. Paleo man did exercises that combined the anaerobic and aerobic systems. Climbing up a cliff was probably done at times, but very rarely - not done every second day like a training regime. Wrestling can give you a fit muscular build, but wrestling alone won't achieve a bodybuilder type physique (when i say bodybuilders physique i don't particularly mean size, i mean body fat/muscle proportion).

[goodsamaritan]

My very simple goal is to look good enough to be attractive to the chicks. He he he. 
Any recommendations?

[invisible]

My very simple goal is to look good enough to be attractive to the chicks. He he he. 
Any recommendations?

If it's a bodybuilders physique you are after unless you are a professional bodybuilder, these general guildines work for basic goals. Lift, eat, sleep.

Lift heavy weights - bicep curls, squats, cable pull downs, bench press, crunches

Eat - If you want to gain muscle eat a bit more than you burn. If you want to cut fat, eat a bit less than you burn. So once you reach the size you want, just eat maintenance calories.

Sleep alot.

Invisible, you seem incredibly wise for a 20 year old!

Thanks mate. I've done lot's of reading, and practice on myself in regards to diet.

[Raw Kyle]

I agree with invisible. Any completely exhaustive exercise paleo people would have done would be too infrequent to keep up any kind of bodybuilder physique. Those bodies require neolithic maintenance.

I've seen some skinny tribal guys, and some muscular ones. I think the average person then would have been more naturally muscular from natural selection than today, these days there is almost no selective pressure for physical fitness since we live in a non-physical world in terms of work and attaining resources.

I also believe that we can improve beyond paleo conditions in life. The foods people eat now aren't an improvement, but maybe some exercises, some streching, taking care of the body with massage and spinal alignment medicine and putting ribs back into place, this seems like an improvement to me. Even if you eat a paleo diet and do paleo exercise you could mess up some of your bones or muscle groups and it's not paleo to know how to fix that, but I think it's good nonetheless.

[TylerDurden]

All the evidence indicates that Palaeolithic peoples had much stronger bones and muscle-mass. This may not have been on the same scale as modern bodybuilders but their strength was of a more functional nature, and therefore more useful. I mean even the more sedentary Ancient Greeks in their triremes could easily outperform modern day Olympic rowers so imagine how much more effective Palaeo peoples would have been.

[Guittarman03]

Update:

After about a week or so of pretty much no carbs, my breath started to smell again, so I gave it up.  Don't get me wrong tho, I'm still at less than 30-40 grams every day.  I gained pretty quickly on zero carb, but then after a few days it kind of leveled out. 

So I finally did a carb loading phase.  I didn't mean to exactly, but the results were very good.  I got in a decent workout, nothing with any big weights, just pullups, incline pushups, twirling a metal pipe (alot), and some basic dumbell exercises.  I ate 3/4 pound steak soon after.  Then went out for Mexican a few hours later.  I had sauted veggies with ribeye, 1/2 a tortilla (homemade!), and a couple beers.  Now usually when I drink after a workout I lose size, but I gained overnight.  Yes some of this was fat, but a good portion was also muscle. 

But then I blew it all by drinking again the next night, and not really sticking to my diet and not getting much sleep the next few days (I was back home w/ family, friends).  I think I 1/2 took myself out of keto adaption.  Nonetheless, I'm pretty excited to get back on my diet and do a more controlled periodic carb up.  I think I'll follow the carb up with a few 0 carb days. 

Altho it's gonna be tough, I'm travelling off and on for the next 6 weeks.           

[Guittarman03]

Well I finally did a more controlled carb up.  Not as controlled as I should have; I ate too many carbs, and instead of all going to muscle glycogen, some ended up as fat.  But I definitely gained a good bit of strength and size.   

I'm going to try again either Friday or Sat morning, and make sure to regulate the carb intake a little better.  I realize the amount and even type of carbs I'm eating is not entirely paleo.  What can I say, I'm a sinner.  I tried putting on mass with the low/no carb, but I couldn't really do it as well as I'd hoped. 

I think it's probable that when fruits become available - mostly in the fall - we probably ate quite a few carbs in our paleo days.  It would be a trigger for storing fat and nutrients for the winter time.  Carbs do help you put on fat, that's for sure.   

[Raw Kyle]

I think you're looking at muscle gain in a too short term way. To my knowledge you don't gain muscle in a day, and to tell what your diet is doing to your muscle gain would require a bare minimum of several months.

[LvB]

If you want to get the fake inflated muscle look. Eat carbs with fat. The fat will be deposited in your muscles. If you want 'pound for pound' type body, cut the carbs completely or leave a few hours in between.

Is anyone else here getting stronger but not gaining weight? (or very small gains)

I've been working specifically on improving pull ups for about a month and a half, and I'm up to 4 pull ups, and I've remained at the same weight. I used to get inflated looking when I was eating more honey and fruits, but now I eat barely any fruit, sometimes some berries on a random day, and I feel like I'm still thin but when I actually do movements I feel stronger.

[Guittarman03]

Bare minimum of several months?  What kind of reasoning do you use to arrive at this?  When I tried raw vegan (mostly), it didn't take me months to figure out just what it was doing to muscle gain (among other things).  It took a week or so. 

The nature of a cyclical ketogenic diet is such that it manipulates hormones to cause a quick glycogen supercompensation reaction.  The glycogen depleted muscle cells become very insulin sensitive for a 24-48 hour window, where they pack in all the water and glycogen possible - if you feed them correctly.  The induced expansion promotes cell division; additionally, a super hydrated state seems to promote anabolism.  Hightened insulin drives protein into the cells and promotes protein sythesis.  And for some odd reason, even growth hormone surges despite the insulin.  This occurs over the course of a couple days.  After that short window you immediately go back to eating no or very low carbs, to get back in ketosis - haven't eaten any carbs since Sunday evening. 

Now I do realize most of the weight and size was just water and glycogen (my weight has re-stabalized at about 3/4 pounds heavier), and that you can't exactly achieve body recomposition in a few weeks (w/o steriods and other drugs); but ask any trainer and they will tell you that you want to be progressing little by little each week.  And there's no doubt, I gained a good bit of strength over those few days - hitting a personal max Monday on quite a few exercises and with better form.  I got in a good lower body workout yesterday, and today I have been eating ALOT of steak, at least 2.5 if not 3 lb so far, probably I'll eat more before bed.  I have found that repeated hunger and eating throughout the day is a good sign that my cells are happily growing. 

I would agree that it could take a couple months of evaluation to determine if this is consistent and reliable, and to achieve some really noticeable differences, but there's no reason you can't make some preliminary observations/judgements on a new routine or program after a few days, especially if it's designed as sort of a shock therapy like this.   

[Guittarman03]

I've been working specifically on improving pull ups for about a month and a half, and I'm up to 4 pull ups, and I've remained at the same weight. I used to get inflated looking when I was eating more honey and fruits, but now I eat barely any fruit, sometimes some berries on a random day, and I feel like I'm still thin but when I actually do movements I feel stronger.

4 pullups is pretty good.  Do you ever do pushups?  How many can you do?

[LvB]

4 pullups is pretty good.  Do you ever do pushups?  How many can you do?

I do pushups once or twice a week, the last time I did them I did up to fifty. I usually do them in sets of 10, and do a different exercise in between sets. This seems to help, because if I tire my arms out on pushups then do some pullups, and go back to pushups, my arms don't feel so exhausted, in fact it's like they have more energy to keep going. I also like to do pushups with rings hanging on a rope from my pullup bar in the garage, they're harder because it works more muscles to maintain the stability. I mostly wanted to focus on pullups for a while because I love climbing things, and I really think the pullups help so that I can have equal arm/leg effort. It's always exciting when I reach that day where I can do one more than before. I suppose I should work on other functions. When I'm playing with my dog I like to crawl around and crouch and jump a lot.

About a month ago I found parkour, which is really really cool because it's about moving through your environment as efficiently as possible. I think it was inspired by seeing hunter/gatherer people move about so easily. It's the kind of movement and speed you would want if you were chasing an animal. Sounds pretty paleo/primal to me. On the American Parkour website (http://www.americanparkour.com) there's a page for beginners, and they have a conditioning routine to get in shape to be able to safely do parkour. It says you should get to the point where you can do 3 rounds of 10-15 pullups and pushups, and 15-25 squats. I'm at the point where I can do that many pushups, so I decided that I need to work on pullups more, and do pushups enough to maintain my current strength.

When I was eating more carbs I would gain more weight, now I seem to stay at a steady weight, and just seem to gain strength rather than size. This is fine for me because I'm more interested in having the functional strength to be able to try this parkour thing (so far all I've been able to practice are landings and rolls). Plain running or jogging is boring, and parkour integrates running, jumping, vaults and climbing for getting around, and I think when I feel confident about it all around, I'll do it enough to have good running exercise. As of now the only workouts besides body weight strength exercises is rock climbing, which seems like a really drawn out strength/muscle endurance kind of work out. It's fun though. Oh, and jungle gyms are fun too.

[LvB]

Also, I've been trying a short intermittent fast in the morning before my workout, and then waiting an hour after to eat, for the whole growth hormone thing, and so far I feel pretty good. I love working out on an empty stomach too because as soon as I'm really into the workout the hunger pangs are gone, but I feel so much more awake and lively because my body isn't having to use energy for digestion.

[Guittarman03]

Parkour is a pretty cool way of exercising, some of those guys do some crazy cool stuff.  I know what you mean about working on an empty stomach.  It kind of sucks at first, but then you've got all this free energy once your body kicks the fat metabolism in high gear. 

I figure after a few more years of weights, I'll start focusing more on gymnastics / parkour / crossfit type stuff, tho I do a little of these about once a week.   

[Raw Kyle]

Bare minimum of several months?  What kind of reasoning do you use to arrive at this?

My experience with bodybuilding in high school and early college was that I would gain muscle quite a bit after the exercise. The first couple of days after a hard workout you are weaker as your muscles are a bit broken down and going through repairs. Should these repairs be allowed to complete with proper rest and nutrition the muscles will be stronger for the next time. You could not get stronger within a week after a workout.

You could however get better lifting technique and therefore be stronger in the practical sense. When I started with kettle bells I was able to do some lifts the second day I couldn't the first day just because of technique.

[The Barbarian]

I dunno guys don't you think there was guys who wanted to test their strength and pick up bigger and bigger rocks or logs or whatever they came up with. I can imagine doing this thousands of years ago. In fact I do it now in a world where I don't actually need to lift anything except the phone to order my pizza. Other than hunting eating sex and hut making how would I have entertained myself back when there was no boob toobs and malls to wander around lol.

[Raw Kyle]

If you had a lot of security in your survival and no trouble with food I can see that coming up, but the vision I have of paleo living is a bit of a feast/famine rotation that wouldn't allow for "training" in the way we think of it. In order to "train" you need, or would prefer, consistency. In the wild there is much less consistency than in towns and cities, where the elements are controlled for our preferences.

[Guittarman03]

The ability to hurl heavier rocks, to chuck a larger spear would confer a survival advantage.  The ability to move heavy logs and make a better stronger leanto / tent / home would confer advantages.  The ability to carry an injured person to safety would help the tribe survive. 

On a side note, I have a confession to make.  I've been eating timed carbs to see how it affects muscle recovery (potatoes, corn, carb mixer).  It's been working great, I'm getting stronger and bigger, but I do tend to put on fat more easily though.  I only really eat them after a good solid work out, and tend to keep it to just meat after the first meal of carbs.  I did get carried away with it for a couple months (mostly b/c I was on temporary duty and had to eat at a chow hall for 3 weeks), and I put an inch of fat around my stomach.  No problem though, I went on the carnivore diet with restricted calories for 1 week and lost 1/2 an inch easy, without losing hardly any strength.  Ketosis is such a great way to lose fat.   

[The Barbarian]

If you had a lot of security in your survival and no trouble with food I can see that coming up, but the vision I have of paleo living is a bit of a feast/famine rotation that wouldn't allow for "training" in the way we think of it. In order to "train" you need, or would prefer, consistency. In the wild there is much less consistency than in towns and cities, where the elements are controlled for our preferences.

Well I would have been darm determined to achieve that level of security in my tribe in that case. I see your point and have to agree. One must have a stable enough survival environmeant to have the time and extra energy required to create competitive sport. I'll bet some tribes did achive this.

[William]

Well I would have been darm determined to achieve that level of security in my tribe in that case. I see your point and have to agree. One must have a stable enough survival environmeant to have the time and extra energy required to create competitive sport. I'll bet some tribes did achive this.

In America, the "wild" Indian tribes had pemmican for security so no feast/famine. Paleoman would done the same.

[Raw Kyle]

In America, the "wild" Indian tribes had pemmican for security so no feast/famine. Paleoman would done the same.

Which is exactly why they took over the grain eating civilizations...no wait it was the other way around.

[Guittarman03]

I hate to admit it, but the advent of grains, while detrimental to health, enabled the stabalization necessary to form civilization.  They are easy to store for years and years without spoiling, easy to transport, and fairly calorie dense (not like fat of course), but you can grow lots of calories with a relatively small plot of land.

All these aspects of grains enabled humans to more densly populate any given amount of land.   

[William]

I hate to admit it, but the advent of grains, while detrimental to health, enabled the stabilization necessary to form civilization. 
All these aspects of grains enabled humans to more densly populate any given amount of land.   

So, you think civilization is good?