Toxins from Cooking

[Ioanna]

I only perused the many posted articles in the newbie section, so I may have missed something, but are all of the studies on cooked food and the resulting toxins done at such high temperatures?  350F is a typical cooking temp, but the studies reported (I think) above 450F to broiling.  Of course that's important, just wondering if there are any studies in the lower cooking temps.

And I'm sure the lower temps create toxins too as I know cooked fat will have me with horrible stomach pains... just wondering what's in the scientific literature.

[goodsamaritan]

By personal experience I tried Homo Optimus Diet with a lot of cooked fatty meat every day and that experiment ended with me feeling terrible.  So there must really be toxins from cooking.

I've observed that putting meat over a direct fire / charcoal transfers soot material to the meat, so that soot gets eaten.  Yuck.

[TylerDurden]

There are studies done on boiled/minimally-cooked foods. There was 1 study which I showed on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group(november 1st 2008 post?). There are plenty on pubmed etc. if you google around as well. A lot of general websites will out and out lie and claim no toxins are created as a result of light cooking(or that such amounts are supposedly "negligible") but when one looks at the comparisons between the amounts of toxins in raw versus boiled foods one sees quite a difference.

There are side-issues, of course:- cooking in open air creates more toxins than when cooking in water, plus some raw foods(such as raw meats from intensively-farmed grainfed animals) also contain some amounts of AGEs/advanced glycation end products.

[Raw Kyle]

The logical way to look at it is that toxins are just chemical by-products of reactions that happen to food, and all chemical reactions are sped up by increased heat. I believe that for every 7 or 10 (can't remember) degrees Centigrade you increase temperature reactions roughly double speed. There's small amounts of toxins in raw foods, especially if you let them sit out in open air at room temperature, it's just a matter of degree. Although, some reactions won't happen unless there are high temperatures so they wouldn't exist at all in raw or lightly cooked foods.

It's difficult to wade through the scientific literature because A) scientists don't seem to concerned with this issue, at least compared to research that helps develop new pharmaceuticals B) it's nearly impossible in science to prove that something is a toxin unless it causes acute symptoms

[magnetic]

Also, if you are filling up on cooked food then you are eating nutritionally inferior food.  For instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coq10#Intake

CoQ10 is vital for healthy heart function, among other things, and there is less of it in cooked meat.

[Hannibal]

CoQ10 is vital for healthy heart function, among other things, and there is less of it in cooked meat.

AFAIK CoQ10 is very volatile and the anihilation of that coenzyme begins above 50 degrees C.

[magnetic]

AFAIK CoQ10 is very volatile and the anihilation of that coenzyme begins above 50 degrees C.

I really need a fact sheet that gathers together such useful information about the harm cause by cooking, as well as the decrease in nutrients.  Also the benefits of parasites and bacteria.  I am going to see my family tomorrow and will be eating raw meat with them for the first time.  I do not think it will go very well.

[cliff]

There is no evidence that non dry cooked foods(boiled/steamed) contain toxins.  Tyler claims there is so lets see the study?

The problem with cooked meat isn't toxins imo, the problem is that cooking makes meat less digestible and nutrient rich.

[goodsamaritan]

I really need a fact sheet that gathers together such useful information about the harm cause by cooking, as well as the decrease in nutrients.  Also the benefits of parasites and bacteria.  I am going to see my family tomorrow and will be eating raw meat with them for the first time.  I do not think it will go very well.

Begin with sashimi.  People are familiar with sashimi.

[TylerDurden]

There is no evidence that non dry cooked foods(boiled/steamed) contain toxins.  Tyler claims there is so lets see the study?

The problem with cooked meat isn't toxins imo, the problem is that cooking makes meat less digestible and nutrient rich.

  Before you utter such drivel, please try to do a bit of research beforehand. Sure, some self-proclaimed nutritionists online have claimed that boiling/steaming foods either creates no heat-created toxins at all, or creates only "negligible" amounts. They are, of course, outrageous liars.

Here is a report showing AGE-levels for cooked foods, some of which have been boiled. Note how even the boiled foods, while containing fewer amounts of heat-created toxins than other types of cooked foods, still contain sizeable amounts of such toxins:-


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=de&rlz=1G1GGLQ_DEAT362&q=cache:UJZQmrLDaPkJ:http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf+advanced+glycation+end+products+levels+in+foods&ct=clnk#7


Plus, the trollish claim that cooking makes food more nutrient-rich is similiarly ridiculous given plentiful reports re nutrient-loss caused by cooking:-

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O39-cookinglossofnutrients.html

http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing

Only exceptions include things like grains, but grains are a health-problem even when cooked, plus cooking creates additional heat-created toxins in the process.

[magnetic]

Begin with sashimi.  People are familiar with sashimi.

Is there a way to prepare raw lamb as sashimi?

[cliff]

Here is a report showing AGE-levels for cooked foods, some of which have been boiled. Note how even the boiled foods, while containing fewer amounts of heat-created toxins than other types of cooked foods, still contain sizeable amounts of such toxins:-


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=de&rlz=1G1GGLQ_DEAT362&q=cache:UJZQmrLDaPkJ:http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf+advanced+glycation+end+products+levels+in+foods&ct=clnk#7

According to the study cooked plant foods contain negligible amounts of AGEs(potatoes and rice had almost 0, even bread was close to 0), in my first comment I was referencing plant foods for the most part but its good to know that no matter what the cooking methods meats generally contain a lot of AGEs.

Plus, the trollish claim that cooking makes food more nutrient-rich is similiarly ridiculous given plentiful reports re nutrient-loss caused by cooking:-

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O39-cookinglossofnutrients.html

http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing

Only exceptions include things like grains, but grains are a health-problem even when cooked, plus cooking creates additional heat-created toxins in the process.

You misread what I said, I was saying cooked meat is less nutrient dense then raw meat.  Regarding grains if you look at the chart you provided most grains have near 0 AGEs so again I don't think the heat created toxins are the problem. 

[TylerDurden]

According to the study cooked plant foods contain negligible amounts of AGEs(potatoes and rice had almost 0, even bread was close to 0), in my first comment I was referencing plant foods for the most part but its good to know that no matter what the cooking methods meats generally contain a lot of AGEs.

You misread what I said, I was saying cooked meat is less nutrient dense then raw meat.  Regarding grains if you look at the chart you provided most grains have near 0 AGEs so again I don't think the heat created toxins are the problem. 

  The irony is that Michael Eades referred to a study which showed that vegetarians on high fruit/veg diets had more AGEs/advanced glycation end products in their bodies than   
meat-eaters:-

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/sugar-and-sweeteners/vegetarians-age-faster-2/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16804013?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum


The idea is that the amount of glycation in their bodies after consumption is so great that the lesser amounts of AGEs consumed in their diet are not as useful as might appear at first glance.
Lest people think that a cooked ketogenic diet is the way to go, based on the above, it should be noted that a cooked ketogenic diet also seems to lead to increased AGE-formation:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16037240


As for the table I mentioned in the previous post, it seems that some cooked veg/fruit does have rather high AGE-levels despite your claims:-

Pie, Mrs. Smith’s Dutch apple crumb, deep dish, crust (Kellogg Co)
1,410(Total MG nmol/100 g)

Olive oil, fresh (Colavita, Linden, NJ)
7,700(Total MG nmol/100 g)
5,852(Total CML kU/100 mL)
Olive oil, heated at 100°C for 5 min (Colavita, Linden, NJ)
9,700(Total MG nmol/100 g)
6,295(Total CML kU/100 mL)
Olive oil, heated at 100°C for 5 min
butylated hydroxytoluene (Colavita, Linden, NJ) 8,200(Total MG nmol/100 g)
6,682(Total CML kU/100 mL)
Olive oil, heated at 100°C for 5 min
aminoguanidine (Colavita, Linden, NJ)
7,900(Total MG nmol/100 g)
5763(Total CML kU/100 mL)

Dried figs unsurprisingly are high in AGEs, as is tofu, pizza and pasta.

Bread, white
3,630 Total MG nmol/100 g
8.3 Total CML kU/100 g
Bread, wheat
4,840 Total MG nmol/100 g
105 Total CML kU/100 g

[cliff]

How is that ironic?  Michael eades thinks they have more AGEs due to dietary fructose consumption not dietary AGEs which has nothing to do with your claim(that all cooked foods have dangerous amount of AGEs).  The study he quotes only includes 38 people tho so not exactly conclusive.

Ofcourse some fruits and vegetables are high in AGEs I never claimed otherwise, what I claimed is that boiled and steamed foods are generally have low to non existant amount of AGEs.  Which is the case if you go by your chart, at least when it comes to plant foods.

[TylerDurden]

Of course boiling produces less AGEs than harsher types of cooking, but even boiling meats causes plenty of AGEs to form. The fact that cooking plants produces far fewer AGEs is by the by - after all, there are other toxins produced  by cooking, not just AGEs.

[Hanna]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=de&rlz=1G1GGLQ_DEAT362&q=cache:UJZQmrLDaPkJ:http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf+advanced+glycation+end+products+levels+in+foods&ct=clnk#7

According to the study cooked plant foods contain negligible amounts of AGEs(potatoes and rice had almost 0, even bread was close to 0), in my first comment I was referencing plant foods for the most part but its good to know that no matter what the cooking methods meats generally contain a lot of AGEs.

You misread what I said, I was saying cooked meat is less nutrient dense then raw meat.  Regarding grains if you look at the chart you provided most grains have near 0 AGEs so again I don't think the heat created toxins are the problem. 

In this study only two of many AGEs were measured. So I don´t understand why the authors claimed to measure AGEs in general . Plus, I bet that the higher the temperature, the more noxious the molecules that will form (cf. acrylamide etc., http://www.mindfully.org/Food/Acrylamide-Heat-Processed-Foods26apr02.htm; http://www.eufic.org/article/en/food-technology/food-processing/artid/What-happens-when-we-cook-food-understanding-acrylamide-formation/) . Therefore, not only the quantity of AGEs is relevant.