To Tyler and other readers of the Native Nutrition Yahoo group

[cherimoya_kid]

Are any of you reading my little debate with Alex Stanley?  Are you finding it entertaining at all?  I fear I may have gone over the top with my last 2 posts.  He's probably about to get personally insulted or insulting, because he has no logical foundation for what he is saying.  If it were a swordfight, he'd be like the Black Knight in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail",  who gets his arms and legs chopped off, saying "I'll bite your legs off!" 

[TylerDurden]

I am a (passive)member of native-nutrition but I have long since stopped receiving regular individual or daily e-mails from that forum as I was so overwhelmed the first couple of times by the sheer number of posts every single day that I just gave up. I still like perusing the archives , occasionally, as I find it useful re weston-price comments, among other things.

Re the current native-nutrition discussion about cooked food consumption linked to either growth or decrease in hominid brain-size:- Yes, you made an obvious point, rather difficult to contradict. However, such people view Wrangham as a sort of God, justifying their eating all sorts of crappy foods, so there's no convincing them no matter what evidence we present.Still, you've got guts given that native-nutrition is , at best, only partially-raw(most WAPFers I've heard of only consume raw dairy and no other raw animal food).

 I 've already put up a couple of threads on rawpaleodiet.com which conclusively debunk most of the claims re very early invention of fire or cooking. I also put up a thread debunking most of beyondveg.com's anti-raw thesis as well. Here they are:-


http://old.rawpaleodiet.com/advent-of-cooking-article/

http://old.rawpaleodiet.com/non-wrangham-theories-of-cooking-debunked/


http://old.rawpaleodiet.com/anti-raw-bias-on-beyondveg-com-website-debunked/

[cherimoya_kid]

I really need to stop posting in the heat of the moment over there.  I really should just step away from the computer for a couple of hours before posting in response to the silly things they can say. 

Or heck, maybe you guys are finding it entertaining.  I just feel like someone should strike a blow for raw animal foods, and raw foods.  That bunch of Young-Earth-Creationist, overly-cooked-meat eating, grain-scarfing, junk-food-sneak-eating sexually-repressed lame-o's needs to wake the heck up and SHUT the heck up.  In my opinion.

Seriously, how can the Young Earth Creationists get a pass there, and somehow I get sworn at, and called names?  I'd call it persecution, if that word weren't so overly-dramatic for the situation.

I just have to laugh at those people, focussing so hard on being good Christians and home-schooling their kids, and thinking that somehow MEANS something, when meanwhile half of them eat a very poor diet.  A number of them actually give their children candy..

Candy.  Noooo, not raw honey.  God=blasted fucking candy.

That fool that's attacking me doesn't even bother to blink at that shit, when some dumbass talks about feeding her 3-year-old candy, and wondering why the brat has cavities.  However, I get called names, and sworn at.

Goddamn this fucking planet.

[TylerDurden]

Well, we also have 1 or 2  Creationists among us. However, given the fact that the Palaeolithic era precedes Bishop Usher's date of 4004 BC (for the creation of earth by god) by several thousand years, and  lasting millions of years, a rawpalaeodiet is somewhat at odds with Creationist thinking.

[cherimoya_kid]

Alex has now compared me to Young Earth Creationists and vegans.  ROFL

I'm wondering what he'll compare me to next.  I guarantee it'll be hilarious.  Not intentionally hilarious, just hilarious.

Seriously, how many people on Earth are simultaneously less vegan and less ready to believe Young Earth Creationism?

It can't be more than maybe 15 or 20. 

What's next with that discussion?  The dude is flailing, hard.

I think I'm glad he's there, though.  At least he's got enough brains to actually discuss the issues.  He's actually destroying his own credibility, both by being willing to allow that other guy to gang up with him on me, and also by not apologizing for saying I was being emotional.

The man must be in the mood to lose an argument, and lose it pretty damn publicly.  If he keeps it up, I'll be elected president next.  LOL  People fucking hate the way he's treating me.  I actually got an email from Suzanne Noakes, a Young Earth Creationist on the NN group; she agreed that I don't deserve their abuse.

[cherimoya_kid]

I don't know what to do with that guy, lynchwt. I think part of the whole problem, though is that I assume that everyone (who bothers arguing like that with me) on the Native Nutrition group knows everything I do about nutrition.

They probably don't, though.

They're probably not even CLOSE to knowing everything I do about nutrition. 

How would I distill thousands of pages of reading, years of experience, years of comparing notes online and in person with other RAFers, etc. into a few easily-understandable paragraphs?  I have very little idea how/where I would even start.  Until I do, I suppose I'll have to keep having silly arguments like that one, or give up posting there.  One size doesn't fit all, anyway.  People start at different levels of knowledge.

This is WORK.  Hard work.

How do I even make it clear to this guy that it's so fucking counterproductive to justify cooking food on a group that's about healing through natural nutrition methods?  How does he not get that?  How does anyone not get that?  Is it really not just ridiculously obvious? 

How is it not clear to him that there are very nutritionally-ignorant people who read that group, who cannot be told things like "cooking made us smarter"?  Those little fools may very well starting heavily cooking every damn thing they eat, and also spreading the damned fool idea without even testing it themselves first.  Does he really not see?  Or maybe I'm wrong about that, and am underestimating the readers of that list.  I doubt it, though.

I really do worry that at some future point some idiot on that list is going to say "cooking made us smarter" in response to some point I make about raw foods.

[Raw Kyle]

I don't know anything about this forum you're talking about but I know something about arguing on the internet and I would offer the advice of staying away from it. I believe the path to convincing the most people that your way is the correct way is to be a shining example of it's benefits and an open teacher to anyone who wants to learn. By all means put out what you believe to be true, your experiences and education, but attacking others or insisting they just don't get it or they're wrong or whatever the case may be will only serve to push most of them away from you. You might get a person or two to come around to your way of thinking with that, but imo much less than you would with an open and non-judgmental approach. I spent years on a raw vegan forum arguing with people only to eventually abandon that diet myself, so I have plenty of e-egg on my face from that. I see people on here doing the same thing, albeit much less than on most other forums I've read.

[TylerDurden]

I don't know anything about this forum you're talking about but I know something about arguing on the internet and I would offer the advice of staying away from it. I believe the path to convincing the most people that your way is the correct way is to be a shining example of it's benefits and an open teacher to anyone who wants to learn. By all means put out what you believe to be true, your experiences and education, but attacking others or insisting they just don't get it or they're wrong or whatever the case may be will only serve to push most of them away from you. You might get a person or two to come around to your way of thinking with that, but imo much less than you would with an open and non-judgmental approach. I spent years on a raw vegan forum arguing with people only to eventually abandon that diet myself, so I have plenty of e-egg on my face from that. I see people on here doing the same thing, albeit much less than on most other forums I've read.

I agree. First of all, getting emotional in an argument is a bad move, on a psychological level. Worst of all, most people when taking sides, assume that if you're ridiculing their viewpoint that they are simultaneously being attacked as well, which they resent.The best thing I've found is to debunk the various anti-cooking arguments(most people don't think about the subject, they just assume that wrangham must be right because he appeared in a newspaper article or three!) but to do so, almost entirely from a standard mainstream viewpoint. So, I mention the numerous scientific studies, these days, which focus on heat-created toxins such as AGEs/advanced glycation end products/nitrosamines etc. Then I use simple logic(I mean, for example, only an utter moron would ever claim that cooking is ALWAYS harmless, as food burnt toc harcoal obviously has no relevant nutritional value.

Another good point is to refer to the mainstream opinion. So, with regard to Wrangham, that's very easy as most palaeoanthropologists think of Wrangham as an object of ridicule. Most people are slaves of public opinion, so are much less likely to defend a person like Wrangham when several other greater figures of (scientific etc.) authority condemn the man's views outright.

Of course, in most cases, I don't feel the need to argue - I generally only do so online, to correct the more major errors of assumption from cooked-dieters. When dealing with the public, people do notice that I'm healthier on this diet, and while they find it most disconcerting to their mindset,  that I haven't died yet after years of eating raw meat, given their concerns re bacteria/parasites, they just come to accept it's a part of me and leave me in peace.

[TylerDurden]

After reading the last few NN posts re this issue of raw vs cooked, I realise I'm going to have to write a critical  essay on Wrangham's new book. I'll get around to writing it in a few days and provide a review in 3 weeks or so.

[cherimoya_kid]

lynchwt, you....are a doofus.

LOL

That is all. 

LOL

Seriously, how does somebody who sees the usefulness of Dr.  Price's work NOT see that idle speculation about diet is stupid?

Maybe I misunderstand lynchwt's reasons for being on the NN group.  I am there because I want to learn nuggets of USEFUL dietary knowledge.  I also want to SHARE dietary nuggets o' knowledge.

I thought that was what Dr. Price's whole thing was ABOUT. That's why I have so much respect for his book.  He wasn't perfect (too much cooked, too much grains and dairy), but the man did more than any human EVER to collect  and spread knowledge about, diet-wise, that which works, not that which is an interesting theory.  When it comes to your health, theory is shit, and reality is everything, in my humble opinion.

I thought all the "I live by theory" people were in the vegan groups, or, well, SOMEwhere other than NN.  I guess not.  Fuck it.

[PaleoPhil]

I don't know anything about this forum you're talking about but I know something about arguing on the internet and I would offer the advice of staying away from it. I believe the path to convincing the most people that your way is the correct way is to be a shining example of it's benefits and an open teacher to anyone who wants to learn. By all means put out what you believe to be true, your experiences and education, but attacking others or insisting they just don't get it or they're wrong or whatever the case may be will only serve to push most of them away from you. You might get a person or two to come around to your way of thinking with that, but imo much less than you would with an open and non-judgmental approach. I spent years on a raw vegan forum arguing with people only to eventually abandon that diet myself, so I have plenty of e-egg on my face from that. I see people on here doing the same thing, albeit much less than on most other forums I've read.

Words of wisdom. Bravo!

[goodsamaritan]

Kyle is right about this.

My friends and relatives today see me slim and in outstanding health after overcoming my terrible eczema ordeal and they see my pictures and recorded people I've helped.

They really sit up and listen when I eat raw meat in front of them and say no to their wheat based junk foods.

[dizzybee6]

I have a friend with really bad excema. What ezactly have you done to help. I am to new at this to really even talk to her about it.

[goodsamaritan]

I have a friend with really bad excema. What ezactly have you done to help. I am to new at this to really even talk to her about it.

Everything is in my website in my signature, the eczema cure website.