How many carbs do you need?

[Craig]

For those on the raw paleo diet and don't do well on zero carb, how much carbohydrate do you need to keep yourselves feeling up to par?

Craig

[Raw Kyle]

You know I've never taken account of how I felt based on amounts of carbs eaten. When I was still eating SAD and the low carb diets started gaining popularity I didn't much pay attention, I figured it was just for losing weight. Then after starting vegetarian and continuing through many different diet paths I didn't stop to think about low carb because I thought I was "beyond that" and that it was for people who wanted to lose weight but still eat their chicken breasts or bacon or whatever.

I feel like I'm a pretty even keel as far as macro nutrient ratios go. For a while I was on a nearly fruitarian diet, and I don't remember having head aches or being overly emotional. I can say though that I had a "fuzzy" feeling after several days of eating mostly bananas. I know bananas are not the best or most natural fruit, and after a few days of sticking to my banana diet I would lose all desire to consume them and get that feeling, which I can really best describe as fuzzy. Maybe a yeast growth in my body from so much sugar, or a yeast die off from previous growth, or maybe a direct effect from the sugar.

So since I haven't been able to notice changes depending on carb levels, I really have no idea how much carbs I "need" to feel a certain way, or if I would do better without any. I'm not sure I'm ready to experiment with it either, I'm still balking a little at the idea of eating most of my meals as plain meat and organs. Just this week I didn't finish a bowel of plain chicken liver because I didn't like the taste, and it seemed harsh or spicy even. I've been feeding it to my cat so it doesn't go to waste. I do remember one time I had a bowel of livers and they tasted like nothing at all, I really enjoyed it. I'm not sure if it was because they were really fresh and healthy, or maybe it was a bad sign of low mineral levels.

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

i feel best sticking between 50 and 100g of carbs a day on average. there are days were i get below 10 and feel fine for the time being. theres also some days that i get maybe 150grams. but generally i feel best between 50 and 100grams.

[Raw Kyle]

How do you measure amount of carbs? I guess it's easy if you use fitday or something, but I don't see myself going to the trouble. I suppose if I had health problems I identified as going along with carb consumption I would do it.

I think what keeps me from getting that in depth is that I am afraid of my diet taking over (or keeping hold of, it already has taken over a large part of my life).

For example I already talked about in another post the vacation I'm going on soon, and I'll let some things slide there just for convenience. I'd like to travel to foreign countries and I will definitely not be able to keep my same diet going in that situation. So I'm trying to adopt the mindset of doing the best I can in any given situation and not trying to over-analyze or worry. Counting nutrients to the gram seems to me like over-analyzing.

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

 i usually eat the same thing everyday give or take, so all my carbs come from berries with breakfast and lunch. but once in a while ill have a cooked yam just for a good glucose replenishment after a few days of low carbs. it really mostly depends on my workouts. if im just doing say chest/tri and some form of moderate cardio i wont supplement with carbs after my workout, but if im doing HIIT or just a long cardio session than ill add in some supplemental dextrose(25g+/-)in my post workout protein shake, which would bring it up to a 'high-carb day'(100g+).

[xylothrill]

Why ever would you need a protein shake eating raw meat? You know all those studies saying how bad animal protein is, were studies using fractionated protein as is found in protein shakes. If you feel the need for a protein shake, why not just make a raw liver shake or something of that nature instead?

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

because a raw liver shake everyday doesnt sound too appealing to me. im about 90% Raw Paleo, hey, i even drink coffee, im not worried about it. maybe one day ill be 100% but for now i feel fine. im not aware of these studies of fractionated animal protein being bad(although it wouldnt suprise me), do you have any links?

[xylothrill]

TheWayCreatesTheWarrior, (what a name!)

I'm not knocking not being 100% raw. I think it's great how raw you are.

Here's are a couple of quotes with references.

The claim that animal protein intake causes calcium loss from the bones is another popular nutritional myth that has no backing in nutritional science. The studies that supposedly showed protein to cause calcium loss in the urine were NOT done with real, whole foods, but with isolated amino acids and fractionated protein powders (3).

When studies were done with people eating meat with its fat, NO calcium loss was detected in the urine, even over a long period of time (3). Other studies have confirmed that meat eating does not affect calcium balance (4) and that protein promotes stronger bones (5). Furthermore, the saturated fats that many experts believe are so evil are actually required for proper calcium deposition in the bones (6).

From: http://www.powerofmeat.com/High_Protein_Diets.htm

Protein powders are the culprit proteins

What is significant in the various studies of protein intake and bone density is that the studies which purported to show protein intake caused calcium loss were not conducted with real foods but with isolated amino acids and fractionated protein powders of the sort used by low-carb dieters and athletes. The reason why these amino acids and fat-free protein powders caused calcium loss while the fat meat diet did not is because protein, calcium, and minerals require the fat-soluble vitamins A and D for their assimilation and utilisation by the body. When protein is consumed without these factors it upsets the normal biochemistry of the body and mineral loss results.[xviii] True vitamin A and full-complex vitamin D are only found in animal fats. Furthermore, saturated fats that are present with meat are essential for proper calcium deposition in the bones.[xix] It should be no surprise, therefore that vegan diets have been shown to place women at the greatest risk for osteoporosis.[xx] [xxi]

From: http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/osteoporosis.html

Craig

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

right on Craig, thanks for the excerpts and links.

i understand and agree with whats said in the excepts, it only makes sense to eat whole foods, but its just really hard to get out of the bodybuilding mindset that ive been in since 17 years old; "you need a quick source of protein immediately after you workout".

i did have a 1.5 yr stint of 100% raw paleo, but i just found that raw meat, being very neutral tasting, got pretty boring day-in and day-out and eventually decided to spice it up alittle with some cooked foods. i definitely felt best on 100%, not easy to explain to people who havent done 100%rawpaleo but you just feel really strong and clean and natural, im sure you know what i mean. anyway, coincedently i have had the urge to go 100% again for the last couple weeks and stumbled upon the link to this forum via the Sunfood forum, something may be syncronizing here  .

thanks again, and thanks for the forum.

[Satya]

Why ever would you need a protein shake eating raw meat? You know all those studies saying how bad animal protein is, were studies using fractionated protein as is found in protein shakes. If you feel the need for a protein shake, why not just make a raw liver shake or something of that nature instead?

What about the amino acid L-glutamine?  That would make a good choice for after workouts, wouldn't it?

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

What about the amino acid L-glutamine?  That would make a good choice for after workouts, wouldn't it?

i have supplemented with Glutamine Post WO, and before bed. ive heard some people arent convinced that it helps any in bodybuilding. but supposedly it raises GH and is an immune-booster.

[xylothrill]

L-Glutamine shouldn't be a problem at all so long as you're getting sufficient animal products in your diet, which shouldn't be a problem on any RAF diet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine

Craig

[igibike]

hi all, I'm interested in this topic as well.

I am an active person (3-4 gym workout days) and 1-2 bike rides per week.
It means about 3-4 hour at the gym and 6 hours on the bike weekly.

Of course since I went almost 100% raw I fell less the need to supplement my diet, but I ma convinced something is still needed.
Here's my supplementation:

pre WO: nothing
durng WO: gym=only water
               bike= cho (maltodextrins) or fruits (banana) if the ride is very long a bottle of water with alcalysing powder (cytrates)
after WO: fruit juice with amminoacidc (bcaa+glutammine)

with this supplementation plan an a paleo diet that is almost fully raw I can train and racover quite quickly.

What are your opinions ?

[wodgina]

hi all, I'm interested in this topic as well.

I am an active person (3-4 gym workout days) and 1-2 bike rides per week.
It means about 3-4 hour at the gym and 6 hours on the bike weekly.

Of course since I went almost 100% raw I fell less the need to supplement my diet, but I ma convinced something is still needed.
Here's my supplementation:

pre WO: nothing
durng WO: gym=only water
               bike= cho (maltodextrins) or fruits (banana) if the ride is very long a bottle of water with alcalysing powder (cytrates)
after WO: fruit juice with amminoacidc (bcaa+glutammine)

with this supplementation plan an a paleo diet that is almost fully raw I can train and racover quite quickly.

What are your opinions ?

Sounds good. If your finding it's working for you then great. Most of what you supplement is for replenishing glycogen to the liver and muscles isn't it?

Raw meat is packed full of glutamine compared to cooked meat. Glutamine is destroyed by heat. You could consider increasing your raw meat consumption after a hard workout.

Have you tried adding raw liver? it is full of 'B' vitamins and has an anti fatigue factor.

[igibike]

Sounds good. If your finding it's working for you then great. Most of what you supplement is for replenishing glycogen to the liver and muscles isn't it?

Raw meat is packed full of glutamine compared to cooked meat. Glutamine is destroyed by heat. You could consider increasing your raw meat consumption after a hard workout.

Have you tried adding raw liver? it is full of 'B' vitamins and has an anti fatigue factor.

Yes, most of my supplenentation is for glycogen re-store. Of course, after a hard WO you have to repair muscle damage as well (here lies the need for ammino acids) moreover a read in different sources that glutammine is important to avoid immune system stress.
I usually eat some raw liver (or raw heart, that should also be rich in carnitine), but non in very big quantities, in order to favour glycogen replenishment.
I got inspiered in this plan by Cordain/Friel "The paleo diet for athetes" book.

I think it's a milestone in athletes nutrition.

[Kristelle]

I personally believe one can perform athletically well without any carbs and even perhaps better but with breaks between athletic feats like 2-3 days.

Aerobic or anaerobic, the muscles can very effectively use fat as fuel. 

[igibike]

This may be true, and probably is, if you practice a mid-low intensity activity and, as you state, Kristelle, with 2-3 days rest between WOs.
But when you go at, or above, your aerobic thresold for a significant amount of time and with little or no rest, it is impossible.
According o my experience.
What a cyclist, or another endurance athlete, can do is improve the use of fat as fuel, but it's impossible to rely only on them.
Fat metabolism is too slow to allow for a quick and full recover.

[Kristelle]

Even when above aerobic threshold (i.e. anaerobic), you can do very well on fat and protein alone. At first, you will feel sluggish but give it a few weeks and you'll see...plus, you won't get that burn in your muscles due to lactic acid.

[igibike]

Sorry, Kristelle, but this is simply impossible.
When you go above you anaerobic thresold, you can only use glycogen (and it is a very small stock), when you enpty your glycogen stores you are fininished, you can only stop and recover (replenish glycogen stores via carbos o neoglucogenesis).
That's our physiology.
You simply can't rely on fats only if you don't wait those long recovery periods.

[Sully]

I've been waiting for someone to come on this forum who exercises alot like myself. I practice martial arts, weight lift, run etc.

Luigi,do you eat after your workouts? What do you eat? Do you think one big meal a day would be the best thing for a person working out multiple times a day? I would like to hear your opinion, please.

[Kristelle]

Some would argue to muscle never uses glucose and only fat, whether under or above aerobic threshold.

From The Bear who's lived at least 50 years on zero-carb:

"Two studies relate to energy source and exercise, both were done with lab rats. One shows by muscle biopsy/analysis that the glycogen in muscle tissue does not vary with exercise, whether anaerobic or anaerobic. The other shows massive gains in endurance over a sufficiently long period of adaptation to a zero carb diet. This study is one of the very few to use a true zero carb diet against a normal rat-chow control in a test."

"Rapid intense effort (anaerobic) uses ATP, which degrades with muscular contraction into ADP. ADP is reconverted into ATP by a mechanism fueled by fatty acids complexed with n-acetyl carnitine. No carbohydrate is involved. Aerobic activity is fueled the same way."

"I am carb free, I exercise anaerobically by lifting weights. I NEVER get sore muscles the next day- or the day after unless I am forcing a severe weight overload, which causes more severe micro damage to the muscles, and some second-day soreness. So there's the 'practical' proof that glycogen does not deplete with exercise."

"You can train for endurance (aerobic) or strength (anaerobic) Each uses a different modification of the basic muscle fibre. Each person has a mix of type 1 and type 2, or fast twitch, slow twitch. If you train as a marathoner, you suppress one and enhance the other- if you train as a sprinter, the reverse happens. It is an either/or situation. You cannot be at the same time both a marathoner and a sprinter- there is no free lunch. ALL muscle fibres use the same fuel, fast and slow both burn only fat. NO muscle fibre uses carbs. (Once more) glycogen is not used to do work, only ATP-ADP reduction is used, that is rebuilt by fat. Glycogen does not produce ATP. Glycogen is not depleted with exercise- this is proven and is in the literature. Opinions to the contrary are just repeating fairy tales from the past. Carb intake reduces strength/speed, and likewise reduces endurance/distance."

"Muscle cells 'run' on ATP-ADP conversion. ADP-ATP re-conversion is done with FFA's. It makes no difference whether the exercise is anaerobic or aerobic, the muscles still work the same way. This is like a car- whether in first gear or in overdrive, it still uses the same fuel. Glucose is not a fuel. Glycogen is not a fuel. Neither can be used to translate ADP back into ATP until converted into FFA first. Mitochondria mediate ADP to ATP conversion which is why there are two 'types' (fast and slow twitch) of muscle cells, fibre bundles with more mitochondria have a different response to the two types of work, aerobic and anaerobic. The mix of types in a given muscle can be altered to some extent by training."

"I am a very active type and back when I was dancing, trust me, any problems with either aerobic or anaerobic exorcise from zero carbs would have been obvious and serious. In fact, I had more energy, more endurance and better control of my body (at my level of skill) than anyone else in the classes I took. I ride a bike hard up the hills and down, and lift weights..."

"Muscle glycogen (or liver glycogen, or ketones) is NEVER used as a 'fuel' for muscles- either in doing aerobic OR in anaerobic work. The glycogen is only there as storage for quick adjustment of blood sugar levels, and in a zero-carb, keto-adapted diet usually does not vary. Please note, carefully: Muscle contraction (i.e.-the standard skeletal 'motor' of the body) is 'fueled' by ATP-ADP conversion. ADP is re-converted to ATP ONLY by a process which uses FFA's. Properly controlled tests have indicated that muscle glycogen is never 'depleted' during exercise."

You can email him directly at the-bear@thebear.org   

[wodgina]

I don't understand the science behind what the bear is saying..I'm getting flashbacks to uni biology classes though but Luigi's workouts are massive compared to dancing and riding a bike around town.

I'm inclined to agree with Luigi who lives and breathes this kind of endurance racing lifestyle. These guys lives revolve around racing training having the best $$$equipment. They know their stuff.

My experience isn't much but at the moment I believe we do use glycogen above the anaerobic threshold. I "hit the wall' after about 50 min of running above my anaerobic threshold. I've come to a complete stop 4 km's from my house and had to walk home after feeling great and running at a great pace then WHAM! I'm gone.

[igibike]

I've been waiting for someone to come on this forum who exercises alot like myself. I practice martial arts, weight lift, run etc.

Luigi,do you eat after your workouts? What do you eat? Do you think one big meal a day would be the best thing for a person working out multiple times a day? I would like to hear your opinion, please.

Sully, I workout only once a day, but almost everyday.

After my WOs, I generally drink a shake with fruit jiuce and amminoacid (bcaa+glutammine). I noticed that it gives me a recovery push.
Then, on weekdays (when I wo after work) I have dinner (raw meat, some veggies and lard). On weekends (when I ride) I get ammmonoacids and raw honey, then lunch (if it's lunch time) with rice or potatoes with raw butter and some raw proteins.
What I eat, and how much strongly depends on WO volume.
I have no experience on daily multiple workouts, but I believe that something (at least a shake) is needed after wo, outherwise you feel empty for a long time.
I tried several times with no recharge, but everytime I tried I got the same result: empy feeling and eventually doms for several days, and this doesn't help facing the new workout, definitely.
I read about the "warrior diet" (I suppese you are talking about it, when you speak of having only 1 big meal per day). I've heard of people applying it with good results, but they wo only once a day, usually in late afternoon, so they can dinner afterwards. Otherwise you have to take some supplementation.

I hope I have anwered your questions, is no, please tell me.
I'm going to post my tipical nutrition/workout plan, in order to show it to you (maybe help someone) and get some feedback.

[igibike]

Kristelle, your post is very interesting, but I want to underline some points:

1) As the bear says: It takes a long period of adaptation to zero carb. What can you do in the meanwhile ? Nothing, because you feel very bad or empty or powreless. And if it happens to eat some carbs ? Will I go back to starting point and need to wait that long adaptation period ?
This is practically impossible (for me and everyone how has a social life)

2) He says "I exercise anaerobically by lifting weights. I NEVER get sore muscles the next day- or the day after unless I am forcing a severe weight overload, which causes more severe micro damage to the muscles, and some second-day soreness. So there's the 'practical' proof that glycogen does not deplete with exercise."
I can't see the proof. He says he doesn't get muscle soreness, but if he trains severely hard he gets this is a countersense (he never gets, but he gets...)
Again, where's the proof ??

3) What he says about ATP-ADP is right, but.
One big question: if we don't use glycogen, why do we need it in bloodstream ?
Googling "anaerocal glycolisis" I found that: glycogen (converted to glucose) can be used aerobically to produce 38 ATP molecules, or anearobically to produce lactic acid, that is a great energy source used to resithetise ATP.

Kristelle, honestly, make a try. Try to run as wodgina for 50 min at high intensity, going around or above your anaerobic thresold.
Then post your feelings. If you have a Heart Rate Monitor, you could post the training data as well, so we will see if you ran so hardly.

Another question: is there ONE elite athlete that lives zero carb ?
I can't find one. there should be a reson...

[wodgina]

Kristelle, honestly, make a try. Try to run as wodgina for 50 min at high intensity, going around or above your anaerobic thresold.
Then post your feelings. If you have a Heart Rate Monitor, you could post the training data as well, so we will see if you ran so hardly.

Another question: is there ONE elite athlete that lives zero carb ?
I can't find one. there should be a reson...

I'm zero carb raw carnivore for health reasons and I have just started training for 'adventure races' eg Mountain bike/kayak/run/swim for up to 5-6 hours for fun.  I'm also doing weights and go surfing and kite surfing!

I'm recording all my heart rate readings such as MaxHR, RestingHR as well as  HR averages etc I am also recording my times and how I feel as well as recovery for every workout.

I'm hoping you stick around so I can get some advice.

Cheers

Andrew