Cause of Heart Disease?

[goodsamaritan]

Hi everyone,

This interest was sparked because more than a week ago my 99 year old grandfather died of a suspected heart attack / plaque build up was suspected.  Darn, I was expecting him to last 10 more years.  And I and my boy already have a ticket to celebrate his 100th birthday in August.  My grandpa ate a normal Filipino diet of white rice, cooked meat and cooked vegetables with little fruit... and he was obese.

I'm trying to pick the best minds and this forum is where I find some of the best... 

I'm researching on the cause of heart disease... the kind where plaque builds up over time and ocludes blood flow.

Please reply with your theories, links to websites, books, passages.

[TylerDurden]

Basically, advanced glycation end products are the key factor behind heart-disease:-

http://www.cardiab.com/content/7/1/29

Just Google heart disease and advanced glycation endproducts together and you'll find numerous scientific references.

[Guittarman03]

Protein Power by Dr. Eades.  He attributes most of it to the overconsumption of carbs which causes hyperinsulimia (sp?).  Insulin induces the overproduction of bad cholesterol, thickening of the smooth muscle cells in your arteries, obesity, and a host of other metabolic consequences that contribute to heart disease, among other things.  I'm sure that overheated fats are also a factor, but I'm not knowledgable on the science behind AGEs and the other bi-products.

I am fairly confident that a low carb diet will prevent heart disease, even if the meat is moderately cooked (as opposed to a cooked diet low in fat and high in carbs).  Of course raw is optimal for prevention of heart disease as you get the best of both worlds.

[fishercat]

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/  is not a raw paleo blog, but he has written a series of posts on the issue. My pet one is the bad omega-3:omega-6 ratio of most diets. Optimal is 1:1 to 1:3. It effects blood clotting, inflammation, and  many other heart disease factors.

Oxidized fats (those damaged by things like frying or being left out in the light too long like most almonds) is another one I think people don't think about...they really promote inflammation.

[TylerDurden]

Oxidized fats (those damaged by things like frying or being left out in the light too long like most almonds) is another one I think people don't think about...they really promote inflammation.

It's not just frying that causes ages/oxidation etc. Even lighter forms of cooking such as boiling are implicated as well re heat-created toxins. While higher levels of daily exercise may help protect against some of the negative effects of moderately-cooked foods, that doesn't mean the latter diet isn't harmful. I'm thinking of the Masai who were shown in a scientific study to have had the same atherosclerotic tendency as westerners but were more immune  as they did far more exercise every day. But their diet was by no means healthy(including dairy/cooked meats etc.)

[William]

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2005018647

Lack of the right kind of oxysterols may have contributed, they are in dried meat, and lacking in modern diet after refrigeration replaced drying as preservation method.

[goodsamaritan]

Following are the causes of heart disease

Diabetes
High blood cholesterol
High blood pressure
Cancer treatments
Thyroid disorders
Alcohol, Cocaine and other illegal drug

This spammer needs to go...

[cliff]

Even lighter forms of cooking such as boiling are implicated as well re heat-created toxins. While higher levels

Source?

AGEs from food probably have little to do with actual body AGEs accumulation, at least that what the science seems to suggest.

Heart disease can probably be brought on by many different mechanisms, nutrient deficiencies, stress, oxidized fat/cholesterol. 

[TylerDurden]

Source?

AGEs from food probably have little to do with actual body AGEs accumulation, at least that what the science seems to suggest.

Heart disease can probably be brought on by many different mechanisms, nutrient deficiencies, stress, oxidized fat/cholesterol. 

I seem to recall that I previously provided sources re this once before to a previous similiar query from you. Anyway, you're dead wrong. The science shows unequivocally that AGEs in food do indeed have everything to do with AGE accumulation in the body:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20229096

http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/14/3/728.full

And heart disease is closely linked to advanced glycation end products-levels:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18473756

[cliff]

You never provided me with a source that AGEs form in boiled food, if you did I missed it and would love to see it again.

The first study(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20229096) puts diabetic patients(Diabetes causes an overabundance of endogenous AGEs) against healthy people, so it really doesn't prove much.  The second study(http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/14/3/728.full) is on patients with renal failure which severely gimps your ability to clear AGEs, again it tells us absolutely nothing for people who are even somewhat healthy.  The last one is a review of the literature and is very telling, "Recent studies suggest that in addition to those endogenously formed, diet constitutes an important exogenous source of AGEs"  "Recent in vitro and in vivo studies revealed significant correlations between diet-derived AGEs and several risk factors and/or markers of CVD"

Show me the study comparing dietary AGEs levels in healthy humans.  You need to realize that sick people aren't healthy people and correlations/suggestions don't necessarily prove anything.  AGEs are probably the least worrisome thing that SADers take in, not to mention that you can totally prvent them if you cook certain ways but that is a whole different subject.

You can pretend that AGEs are some horrible death killer all you want but the literature doesn't necessarily support you and there is definitely no conclusive evidence.  What we need is a clinical trial, two diets with the same foods and supplemental AGEs, until we have that we have nothing.

[TylerDurden]

I had already provided a previous link re AGEs in boiled foods. You couldn't have missed that, so chances are you are a troll.On the very, very slim chance  you are not:-

Here it is again re boiled foods and AGE-content thereof:-

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=de&rlz=1G1GGLQ_DEAT362&q=cache:UJZQmrLDaPkJ:http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf+advanced+glycation+end+products+levels+in+foods&ct=clnk#7
Re the rest of that drivel:-
Again, you are being stupid. The whole point of the first study(and other related studies) was that the higher the  AGE-content of diabetic patients the worse off they are, and the less they have of AGE-levels the healthier they are.

The trouble with your laughable, ridiculous claims is that there are plenty of other studies done on (relatively-healthy) subjects with AGE-levels:-

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1750-3841.2010.01889.x/full


You are, of course, lying wholeheartedly in the following drivel you are spouting.  First of all, any competent study will use words like "suggest", even if it is on the same level as "suggesting" that the Earth is not flat. That is simply scientists being careful not to overdo their statements re scientific rigour, nothing more. Only a very stupid fool would ever make 100 percent, unequivocal claims even for something that had been proven a 1000 times by a 1000 different studies. Anyway here's a study on healthy individuals:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19420913


So,  we have established that a) all forms of cooking produce AGEs or some other type of heat-created toxins.


b) AGEs are even a problem for supposedly "healthy" peoples.

c) Health-problems are reduced when AGEs-levels in the human body are reduced.

[cliff]

Calm down tyler and stop with the attacks, please.  I can assure you I am not a troll lol.

So your first link I have definitely never seen before and is pretty interesting, boiled meats do seem to be somewhat high at first glance.  The problem is that raw meat already has a decent amount of AGE content for some reason, raw chicken for example is 700 and boiled is 950(compared to 5000 for roasted).

Plant foods on the other hand have negligible amounts with boiled potatoes coming in at 17, this was what I was really interested in because cooked meat has other greater problems besides AGEs so the AGE content doesn't necessarily matter too much(to me at least).

Your second link is pretty classic, especially considering that you are calling me stupid.  Its a study done on mice with refined AGEs, you seriously think that is equal to a study done on healthy humans?  If there are studies done on relatively healthy humans show them, otherwise stop with the attacks.

I'm a liar because I realize that these studies aren't absolute and can be wrong?  Ok...  You need to chill out dude, your dogma with this AGE thing is beyond insane.  No need to attack me over it lol,  I'm actually trying to learn as hard as that may be to believe

Again diabetic patients aren't representative of healthy humans, just because a diabetic patient is worse off doesn't mean anything for healthy people.  With that being said so far everything you posted has not proven that AGE are a problem for healthy people or that health problems reduce when AGEs are eliminated.

Before you ban me or attack me anymore let me make it clear that I don't even eat foods with AGEs for the most part and I think they may be a causal factor in some diseases but your weak studies you parade around don't show much, they definitely don't show Dietary AGEs being the villain you make them ut to be.

[TylerDurden]

Calm down tyler and stop with the attacks, please.  I can assure you I am not a troll lol.

So your first link I have definitely never seen before and is pretty interesting, boiled meats do seem to be somewhat high at first glance.  The problem is that raw meat already has a decent amount of AGE content for some reason, raw chicken for example is 700 and boiled is 950(compared to 5000 for roasted).

  *sigh* I already explained in previous discussions with you and others, why some raw foods had high AGE-content. It has been pointed out that animals fed on unhealthy foods like grains, tend to provide such high-AGE content. That does not invalidate raw foods as a whole, it just means one should eat high quality foods.

Plant foods on the other hand have negligible amounts with boiled potatoes coming in at 17, this was what I was really interested in because cooked meat has other greater problems besides AGEs so the AGE content doesn't necessarily matter too much(to me at least).

  As usual, you are ignoring all the other types of heat-created toxins created by cooking.

Your second link is pretty classic, especially considering that you are calling me stupid.  Its a study done on mice with refined AGEs, you seriously think that is equal to a study done on healthy humans?  If there are studies done on relatively healthy humans show them, otherwise stop with the attacks.

First of all, it is spectacularly stupid for you to insist on  studies on healthy peoples since the whole point of AGEs is that they are toxic and implicated in numerous different illnesses, so that, inevitably, almost all studies will focus on AGEs in unhealthy people/animals. The vast majority of studies on healthy subjects would, inevitably, be done on animals, for obvious reasons. Even so, given the 1000s of studies done on AGEs, there are some studies done on healthy subjects, eg:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16037267

http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/4/316.full

What is trollish is to pretend that studies done on unhealthy subjects are somehow "suspect", especially when I have previously, on several occasions, pointed to a study which showed that reducing AGE-levels made such ill people healthier.

I'm a liar because I realize that these studies aren't absolute and can be wrong?  Ok...  You need to chill out dude, your dogma with this AGE thing is beyond insane.  No need to attack me over it lol,  I'm actually trying to learn as hard as that may be to believe

  What irritates is when someone continues to nitpick my data despite already having previously read past posts of mine which already debunked your claims, ages ago.

Again diabetic patients aren't representative of healthy humans, just because a diabetic patient is worse off doesn't mean anything for healthy people.  With that being said so far everything you posted has not proven that AGE are a problem for healthy people or that health problems reduce when AGEs are eliminated.

I already previously showed in past posts  months before, without doubt, that health problems do indeed reduce when AGE-levels are reduced. As regards AGEs-levels in healthy peoples comment, that's stupid, as the whole point behind AGEs is not that they are instantly toxic, but that their negative effects increase to the point where they become toxic, after enough AGEs have been produced over the years. After all, the body naturally produces very tiny amounts of AGEs, regardless of diet, throughout life, and the body can deal with them, just  not with the accumulated burden of toxins from cooked foods, over decades.

Before you ban me or attack me anymore let me make it clear that I don't even eat foods with AGEs for the most part and I think they may be a causal factor in some diseases but your weak studies you parade around don't show much, they definitely don't show Dietary AGEs being the villain you make them ut to be.

That is, of course pure b*ll. More to the point, there are now so many 1000s of studies done on the negative effects of AGEs, that it should by now be required for every person who wishes to troll me re heat-created toxins to read up on the first 500 studies on heat-created toxins they come across, beforehand.

[Modern Primate]

The number #1 cause of heart disease is of being fat and out of shape.

Apart from that it's eating bad foods: trans-fats, cooked fats, vulgar stuff like sausages  , and god only knows what damaging crap they are putting in processed foods like corn flakes or biscuits.

Not eating good foods: Raw foods that we are instinctively inclined to eat, for example apples, clear away any nasty plaque that builds up. Raw organic eggs have fats in perfect quantaties and are full of nutrition.

Maybe some people will disagree but: sugars don't cause heart disease except by making people become fat if they eat too much processed sugars.

Heart disease is the number #1 killer of humans by a long way, and yet does not occur in other primates unless exposed to Human foods!!!! So it is good to be very knowledgeable about what happens.  
  

[bharminder]

One aspect that is not related is how you respond to situations. for example, my uncle ate healthy and exercised often. He ate a much better diet than a typical SAD diet. However, his attitude was a typical Type A behavior. Always angry, resentful....obviously angry too..not just passive aggressive..and he got a heart attack and died when he was in his late 50's early 60's.

They say that when you have angry or hostile thoughts constantly, you tear muscles in your heart slowly....something like that

[goodsamaritan]

Hi All,
Some tips to prevent from heart disease.
Do start cardio exercises on regular basis,
Have diet low in salt,
Avoid foods that are high in fat content,
Obesity is one of the major factor for heart disease so reduce weight,
Avoid tension, depression and worries,
Keep your attitude positive,
Quit smoking and alcohol,
Maintain healthy levels of cholesterol and blood pressure,
Medication can prevent heart disease,
Do sleep for 8 hours daily.

I think you are a marketer of sorts and just waiting to spring your links.
We really don't want your kind here.
Your concepts about health are STUPID and outrightly WRONG.

Imagine, you said:

MEDICATION can prevent heart disease... you are an idiot.
Avoid FAT... you are an idiot.

You are no raw paleo dieter.
Get out.

[raw]

Mental illness and heart disease are related very much. All of my uncles from my mother side died in heart attack and they were skinny, but high tempered guys. Cooked food, lack of consuption of red meat, lack of consumption of raw fats are the obvious factors...

[Dorothy]

We cured my aged Mom of an almost completely occluded aortic artery. Before doctors said must do surgery right away or 90% chance will have stroke. One year later - completely open and clear artery.
 
Take out bad fats, put in good raw fats - especially cold-water fish. Take all junky food out. Only one fish oil supplement is raw and works - minami. Only thing (tried hundreds and prescriptions) that brought her outrageous life-long cholesterol and sky-high triglycerides down into normal range. If don't want pills, can't get that or prefer not to - then just eat raw fish. Mom did that too. 

Also read somewhere a long time ago that heart disease was a symptom of a lack of vitamin c but don't remember where.

What Lex wrote about his not having a lack of vitamin c on an all meat and fat diet is telling here.