Contacting Sv3rige

[Qondrar_The_Redeemer]

Ok.

But what about the lower limits?

How could we get calcium and phosphorous from organs and meat diet only?

I don't mean to discourage anyone from eating bones, I just personally think it is more natural to eat smaller bones raw than larger ones cooked. Perhaps Derek is on to something, and the extremely large amounts of calcium and phosphorus are useful, I couldn't say. You could also eat lower amount, no need to overeat on bones. Although I am curious just how much is actually absorbed.

The best source of calcium other than bones would be bone marrow. Phosphorus is present in all types of meat (muscle and organs), and shouldn't be a problem.

[van]

I'd love to see the source for the ca. in marrow.  thanks

[Qondrar_The_Redeemer]

I'd love to see the source for the ca. in marrow.  thanks

Marrow has around 277.3 to 339.7 mg of calcium per 100 grams (in reindeer) according to this:

Level of selected nutrients in meat, liver, tallow and bone marrow from semi-domesticated reindeer (Rangifer t. tarandus L.):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417664/

It shows plenty of other vitamins/minerals/proteins/fats in reindeer  muscle, liver, tallow and bone marrow.

[van]

good, thanks

[sabertooth]

Regarding bones,

I haven't mentioned my latest addition to the diet here mainly because of the anti cooking nature of the forum, and partly because I've only been experimenting with eating dissolved bone for the last 4 months, and wanted to be sure there were not any negative issues before presenting my findings.

One of the main problems I have noticed while going an a long term primarily raw meat based diet, is in obtaining optimal minerals and electrolytes from food sources. I will work long hours in hot conditions and often sweat intensely, leaving me at times depleted to the point of cramps muscle, joint soreness and also seemingly more prolonged recovery times. This is something I have always experienced and was much worse before going paleo, when I had much more drastic symptoms of mineral deficiencies.

Over the years I have tried to get every bit of minerals and electrolytes possible by drinking blood, eating all the tissues and organs and it still sometimes seems like its not quite enough. The sheep I consume only have so much blood and marrow, and it would be difficult for me to obtain any extra to supplement with. I have also experimented with things like magnesium supplements, Clay and D.E in the past without much success. Dairy seems to help with providing minerals but has other negative effects which makes it not useful in the long term. Eating the occasional eggs, fish, greens nuts and vegetation seems to help add a better overall mineral ballance, but still does not seem quite optimal.

Since going paleo I have been more and more curious of the benefits of eating bones especially after witnessing my dogs devour whole raw bones, and seem to thrive. The problem is humans in general do not have bone crushing teeth and jaws. I have tried chewing the soft bone and extract marrow from the ribs, and will chew connective tissue till my jaw hurts. I crave the taste but just could never figure out a way to make it work...there are industrial granders which would work ideal, but I dont have 3,000 or so odd dollars to invest in an experiment....so I started to devise ways to soften bones in a crock pot.

I would also like to mention that I extremely dislike bone broth, the taste is repulsive and it always sits heavy in my stomach. To get around the taste of cooked meat I first scrap the bones as clean as possible then place them in a crock pot with two cups of apple cider vinegar on low for about 24 hours. Then I strain off all the broth and rinse all the cooked meat from the bones, afterwards I put back the clean bones into the crock pot with spring water and two more cups of vinegar and leave it on warm for about three days.

This way all allows for much of the horrid taste of cooked meat to be discarded leaving a very soft, clean bone which can be eaten easily. I have recently started keeping the temp on low warm and doing a second rinse cycle to get an even cleaner taste and softer consistency. The large joints will turn into a honeycomb of delicious mineral goodness.

I ate a whole lot in the beginning and besides a little constipated at first, there hasn't been any negative issues. While on the positive side I have noticed much less cramping and soreness, shorter recovery time, and more overall strength and endurance. I usually will snack on bones throughout the day now, eating a couple of bites here and there shortly before meals or as a late night snack before bed.
 

 

[Qondrar_The_Redeemer]

Very interesting. Do you eat any other animals than sheep? You could get more blood and marrow from larger animals, along with any other parts of the animal (organs, muscle, whatever).
And if you do only eat sheep, any reason why you prefer sheep over other animals?

Also, in regards to bones, how much do you eat?

[Dingeman]

You're saying you couldn't get enough minerals from fish?
What about oysters/mussels? Oysters especially are so salty to me, it would be hard to not get enough minerals from them. They are traditionally eaten raw as well..

[Qondrar_The_Redeemer]

You're saying you couldn't get enough minerals from fish?
What about oysters/mussels? Oysters especially are so salty to me, it would be hard to not get enough minerals from them. They are traditionally eaten raw as well..

Looking at it from a mineral perspective, oysters tend to be very high (sometimes the highest, depending on the species) in zinc, high in copper and selenium. Potassium, magnesium and sodium tends to be similar between fish, oysters and land animals. Although it could be the salt water you are tasting, in which case you would be getting some additional minerals, albeit not much. Mostly some extra sodium.
 
With all the organs he eats, he should easily be getting all the selenium, manganese, copper, zinc, phosphorus, iron and calcium. The only ones (and only if he is not consuming a large enough volume of food) which in general would be below recommended daily intake would be magnesium, potassium and sodium. Blood has a pretty high potassium and sodium content, although it is not as high in magnesium. On paper he should be getting everything. It's also very bioavailable.

But there's probably more to it than just paper values of what you should be getting. And looking at it, he should mostly be getting calcium and phosphorus from bones.

[sabertooth]

Very interesting. Do you eat any other animals than sheep? You could get more blood and marrow from larger animals, along with any other parts of the animal (organs, muscle, whatever).
And if you do only eat sheep, any reason why you prefer sheep over other animals?

Also, in regards to bones, how much do you eat?

I typically prefer sheep for a number of reasons.....Most cows in my area are grazed in less than optimal conditions and do not taste good to me...plus bovine fats seem to be much more waxy in consistency than sheep fat which is much more creamy and easier to digest in the copious amounts I consume. Even if it was possible to source good quality organs, marrow and blood from animals I do not butcher, it would be difficult to afford paying market price for all those extras in the long term.

I usually eat only a few ounces of bones a day.. a couple of ribs, half a scapula, or a big knuckle joint...the amount varies depending on craving and how much I have to pick from.

You're saying you couldn't get enough minerals from fish?
What about oysters/mussels? Oysters especially are so salty to me, it would be hard to not get enough minerals from them. They are traditionally eaten raw as well..

I experimented with trying to add larger amounts of seafood for minerals, a couple years back after I got a hair test which showed I was low in magnesium calcium and selenium. Some experts claim that hair analisis is not accurate, the efficacy of such testing is a separate topic of debate but from my experience they can give an indication if there are mineral imbalances or deficiencies....though it is still uncertain what levels are optimal for any particular individual.

For a couple of months I ate lots of oysters, fish, crab, scallops...It was very expensive and after some time I didn't get any really positive effect, and actually started noticing weird symptoms like headache, cloudy thinking and muscle twitching...I went back for an other hair test and it showed that my mineral levels were improved, but my mercury level was also way up, where it had been undetectable from before. After that I quit eating most seafood, and the symptoms went away...I haven't gone back for any more testing yet....might give it a couple more months of supplementing with bones just to see where the levels are.

Looking at it from a mineral perspective, oysters tend to be very high (sometimes the highest, depending on the species) in zinc, high in copper and selenium. Potassium, magnesium and sodium tends to be similar between fish, oysters and land animals. Although it could be the salt water you are tasting, in which case you would be getting some additional minerals, albeit not much. Mostly some extra sodium.
 
With all the organs he eats, he should easily be getting all the selenium, manganese, copper, zinc, phosphorus, iron and calcium. The only ones (and only if he is not consuming a large enough volume of food) which in general would be below recommended daily intake would be magnesium, potassium and sodium. Blood has a pretty high potassium and sodium content, although it is not as high in magnesium. On paper he should be getting everything. It's also very bioavailable.

But there's probably more to it than just paper values of what you should be getting. And looking at it, he should mostly be getting calcium and phosphorus from bones.

We are all in uncharted territory when trying to quantify optimal mineral consumption ratios, Its nearly impossible to scientifically analyze ones day to day needs and prescribe a given protocol. Ive given up all hope in nutritional science to show me the way and been running on instinct for so long that following my cravings have become second nature. When I am in need of lacking nutrients I can feel it...Its not anything like the extreme malnourishment of my vegetarian days....for the most part I am very well nourished and any blood test profile would likely be well within the 'normative', but every now and then there is a feeling that if only I had an extra something or other then everything would be prime. Even alpha wolfs who have access to all the meat they can eat will still knaw on a bone every now and then, which points to there being something in the actual bone tissue they crave from time to time.
 
I have also noticed a dramatic increase in the flexibility of my joints and tendons since beginning to eat bones. I feel much more loose and limber and am progressing much better when I take my weekly flexibility class.

[TylerDurden]

I typically prefer sheep for a number of reasons.....

For a moment there, I had a huge grin on my face!! I think the preferred term of usage is either "lamb" or "mutton"! Never mind...

[RogueFarmer]

As you will probably recall, wolves eat a large percentage of their diet (perhaps 60-70% and sometimes more) in mice, which they eat whole. In the past my dogs seem to have really enjoy eating desiccated, rotten, sun dried fish that would show up along the river...

[jibrael]

I would also like to mention that I extremely dislike bone broth, the taste is repulsive and it always sits heavy in my stomach. To get around the taste of cooked meat I first scrap the bones as clean as possible then place them in a crock pot with two cups of apple cider vinegar on low for about 24 hours. Then I strain off all the broth and rinse all the cooked meat from the bones, afterwards I put back the clean bones into the crock pot with spring water and two more cups of vinegar and leave it on warm for about three days.

This way all allows for much of the horrid taste of cooked meat to be discarded leaving a very soft, clean bone which can be eaten easily. I have recently started keeping the temp on low warm and doing a second rinse cycle to get an even cleaner taste and softer consistency. The large joints will turn into a honeycomb of delicious mineral goodness.

Derek, sometimes I feel I am little bit duffer.

May I ask you why you use "vinegar" if you discard the broth and don't drink it?

My understanding is this that people use vinegar so that the calcium comes out of the bone and lands into the broth, so that people can get it from the broth and they don't have to chew the bones for the calcium.

But in your case, you discard the broth and eat the bones. Then would it not be better to not to use the vinegar, so that the calcium stays in the bones when you eat them?

[sabertooth]

People who consume bone broth typically do not eat the whole bones, and will indeed get some level of mineral nutrition from acidicly induced leaching...but just because some of the minerals leech out into the broth, does not take away from the core mineral values of the actual bone in any significant way. The bone tissue matrix is still full of bioavailable minerals even after the broth is extracted and can these leftover minerals are perfectly bioavailably utilized when eaten.

Another benefit to my method is that by running multiple rinse cycles, much of the AGEs in the cooked proteins as well as the rancid heat deteriorated fats are washed out, leaving a more pure mineral substrate that is much more appealing to my cravin sense.

I have also tried using lemon juice which also works...but doesn't seem to keep as fresh tasting for days on end like the apple cider vinegar. I also prefer the more subtle taste of lightly vinegary soft bones, vinegar seems to be good for dissolving out the cooked marrow and protein residue which is what typically gives bone broths their abhorrent taste.

 

[van]

I don't know Derick, bones, I've heard are mostly protein. ??

[Qondrar_The_Redeemer]

I don't know Derick, bones, I've heard are mostly protein. ??

What? Where did you read/hear that? Bones should contain about 10 to 20 percent water and 60 to 70 percent bone mineral. The remaining material is mostly collagen with trace amounts of proteins and inorganic salts.

[van]

depends which source,, I saw your source as cited...  Others state that 20 percent is organic matter which is mainly proteins/collagen  and growth factors etc.   So yes, mostly minerals, but tightly bound with proteins.
   I don't doubt there is value to eating cooked bones, peoples have benefited for eons.

[Qondrar_The_Redeemer]

depends which source,, I saw your source as cited...  Others state that 20 percent is organic matter which is mainly proteins/collagen  and growth factors etc.   So yes, mostly minerals, but tightly bound with proteins.
   I don't doubt there is value to eating cooked bones, peoples have benefited for eons.

Well, the source does say 10-20% and 60-70%. 60+10=70%. So 30% could potentially be collagen, proteins and inorganic salts.

Well, Derek seems to be benefiting from it, right now. Although I am interested how much of a difference it would make if he consumed raw bones (smaller bones or bone meal).

[van]

 Yeah, like I"ve said,  a horse file kept in the freezer with empty marrow bones kept in the fridge, and you've got fresh raw bone powder any time of the day. 
   But then I'll admit, not being a chemist or biologist, I really have no clue as to whether minerals  become 'inorganic' or dead or detrimental to your health when cooked, especially for such prolonged periods of time.
    Paleomedicina group believes that dogs seem to love bones due to the co-existence of man and dogs from early times when man hunted big game and threw the bones to the dogs.  They treat dogs with cancer, etc. and feed no bones, completely contrary to how I've fed my dogs with whole raw fresh lamb, bone included for over twenty years...
    If bones are not needed, it can only be because the minerals that is in meat, organs and fat have enough so that the body fully utilizes and doesn't expend minerals wastefully, or because toxic plants eaten bind with minerals and cause deficiency. 

[sabertooth]

For now Im content to keep using a moderate amount of dissolved bone mineral, and insist that I feel benefits from doing so. My strength and flexibility seem to be much improved in the last few months, and I dont get cramps as much as before even when working long hours in the heat.

I would presume that there are trade offs when considering raw vs cooking in vinegar. I feel that rinsing off the bits of flesh fat and greasy broth removes the majority of cooked toxins from the bone mineral. Some levels may remain but in my case i feel the benefits of the minerals outway the risk of small amounts of cooked protein residue. The taste is pleasantly clean and pure and doesn't cause the aversion that cooked meat and broth evoke.

Perhaps Raw bone meal has similar benefits without any risk, but I am not sure either way? I use to file bones by hand to get small amounts of bone meal, but it was a lot of effort for little return, then I lost my old file and the new one i bought seemed cheaper and metal would flake off of it, making me think that maybe filing isn't the best method, unless you are absolutely sure about the purity of the metal.

Digestibility of vinegar dissolved vs raw is also a matter of debate. Im not sure that raw ground bone meal would be as bioavailable as dissolved bones. I use to chew on the raw bone meal like gum and it would never fully break down....though it is a good method for polishing your teeth...while the dissolved bone seems to melt im my mouth with very little effort, which may indicate that the minerals may be eassier to assimilate....

Perhaps the variables are dependant upon the individuals needs....some people may have more drastic deficiencies than others....... people with mineral deficiencies will often also have enzyme deficiencies making them less able to absorb minerals from raw bones...for such individuals disoved bones may add a necessary boost in enzyme forming bioavailable minerals.(there is definitely a synergy between the apple cider vinegar and the bone mineral which seems to be good for overall digestion, and should be explored more deeply)

Perhaps people who are already fairly well balanced don't need any major supplementation, and having optimal enzymatic functioning would do fine with occasionally consuming small amounts of raw bone meal and whole small bones from small animals.

Perhaps some combination of raw bone meal and dissolved bone mineral could be used in a best of both worlds scenario, which when combined may provide benefits far beyond the majority of the more dubious methods of mineral supplementation currently heralded by modern nutritional science.


In the end analisis its still much a matter for debate whither any such supplementation is "necessary" at all, so long as there are enough prime quality organs, marrow, blood, connective tissue, and what not...But I assume that for many of us it may be difficult to obtain optimal ratios of such mineral dense animal foods, and for many suffering from lifelong mineral deficiency or metal toxicity, supplementation with bone may be beneficial for chelation and regeneration.

Right now I am somewhat limited financially and logistically, so am attempting to extract every bit of nutrition from the one animal I kill every month...being a member of the working class on a tight budget, its difficult for me to afford buying extra marrow and quality organs, even if I could find sources that were trustworthy.......quality blood is near impossible to find at the market level....Im not yet desperate enough to go full cheebacabra, draining blood from livestock in the night..... some day if times get apocalyptic I may have to go full vampire... ;)kidding aside; I've had such a tough time attempting to economically source for extras, that its been much more feasible a solution to source the best quality mutton on hoof and devise ways to maximize nutrition available from each animal.

[Common One]

Is that rendered fat in the blue bowl at the top?

https://i.imgur.com/l3awT67.jpg

[sabertooth]

Its coconut butter

[Common One]

The texture looks very nice. I eat coconut butter sometimes but it doesn't looks as good as yours, here.

Thanks for sharing the video. It's a really nice watch.

[Qondrar_The_Redeemer]

Its coconut butter

Any particular reason you eat coconut butter?

[van]

I bet you bucks that if you did an enzyme assay on c. butter you'd find it totally devoid of enzymes and more particular that the fats have been damaged by oxidation and heat.   Getting dried coconut to butter consistency most probably takes a heck of a lot of grinding which most probably creates a heck of a lot of heat, not to mention the air that gets driven into the product in the process.  I've tried buying/eating it at least a couple of times, and find it anything but fresh.   But then, it's probably a heck of a lot better than eating peanut butter.

[sabertooth]

Perhaps, my coconut butter habit is a mere idiosyncratic indulgence which does not have any tangible merit for most other people...or I may even have become physically addicted to the stuff having eaten over a pound a week for the last 8 years. Still I feel there is more to it than can be dismissed by the paradigm of it not being a truly raw food.

I have found that coconut butter doesn't have the overtly laxative effect like raw coconuts, so perhaps some of the enzymatic properties are diminished in the drying process, but that does not necessarily mean its a bad thing...just as how some people will soak or lightly roast nuts to diminish their anti nutrient property.

Coconut fat is one of the most stable of plant based fats and the butter I eat in no way has any hint of being rancid. Lauric acid a main component of coconut fat has a number of documented properties which boost the immune system and support overall healthy fat metabolism. I think I have some degree of physical dependance upon these medium chain fatty acids and experiments of eating more animal fats while cutting out all coconut seem to negatively effect my ability to optimally metabolise fat, though I havent gone into to much depth as to figure out why, because I typically do so well with the current fat ratio combination. 

Lauric acid is also found in large quantities in human breast milk, but since I haven't got a regular free range paleo supply of that, Im not sure about how to obtain quality sources other than coconut.

I would also state that I am really picky about coconuts and don't much like the ones available at the local markets. Every now and then a good shipment will come in and I have made good quality coconut cream in the past, but the cost, labor, and availability has made it so that I cant do it on any regular basis.

I also do not like most of the brands on the market and prefer Artisan Brand over most others. It is low temperature processed, is labeled raw and has a taste which is much fresher than others. All it is is dehydrated and blended coconut, and it taste almost exactly like the homemade coconut butter I made a few years ago, only its much less expensive and time consuming.