Neanderthals may have crossed the seas THOUSANDS of years before modern humans

[TylerDurden]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5657623/Neanderthals-crossed-seas-THOUSANDS-years-modern-humans-researchers-say.html

[dariorpl]

I wonder if they think they swam, canooed, sailed or what.

[TylerDurden]

I wonder if they think they swam, canooed, sailed or what.

Errm, all the way to Crete? I suspect they sailed or rowed. Swimming just does not compute.....

[dariorpl]

It would be a 23km maximum swim distance from one piece of land to the next, if you somehow knew where each of the islands was. Even if you avoided all of the mini islands, it would be 100km. Current world record for longest ocean swim distance stands at 225km

[TylerDurden]

It would be a 23km maximum swim distance from one piece of land to the next, if you somehow knew where each of the islands was. Even if you avoided all of the mini islands, it would be 100km. Current world record for longest ocean swim distance stands at 225km

Most of these islands have huge problems re finding decent water-sources, let alone the problems with food-supply. It just doesn't make sense unless rowing or sailing is involved.

[dariorpl]

It doesn't have to be something that everybody can do on a regular basis, all it takes is one male and one female, once, over a period of 200 thousand years.

Plus, we know little about the ability of Neanderthals to swim, or their water requirements.

And there are plenty of sources of water besides straight up water, as I'm sure you know. Any land based lifeforms you can eat or chew on may contain fresh water. Even fish from saltwater contains plenty of freshwater in its meat.

And of course, they could've carried food or water during the trip.

The world record is 225km swim over 50hs. So it's reasonable to think that 100km could be achieved in well under 24hs. 100km gets you from mainland to crete.

[TylerDurden]

Crete is at least 160km away from the mainland.Eating raw fish for water isn't a good idea given the salt-content, which is dehydrating. Land-based lifeforms on tiny, isolated islands would be rare indeed. Plus, these people had no concept of navigation so they would have had no idea where they were going. Hopeless!

[goodsamaritan]

Our human run up to this current civilization peak is just one among several reboots in the past. There used to be a more glorious global higher tech civilizations than ours today.

[dariorpl]

Crete is at least 160km away from the mainland.

Not according to google:

Eating raw fish for water isn't a good idea given the salt-content, which is dehydrating.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, fish meat is even lower in sodium than most domesticated land animal meat such as beef, pork, chicken. It's comparable to wild venison. In any case, none of these are high sodium foods.

[dariorpl]

Our human run up to this current civilization peak is just one among several reboots in the past. There used to be a more glorious global higher tech civilizations than ours today.

It could be. Although there is little or no evidence of them left on Earth.

Then again, most scientists believe in the big bang theory, so I don't see how that is any more unplausible

[TylerDurden]

I'm not sure what you're talking about, fish meat is even lower in sodium than most domesticated land animal meat such as beef, pork, chicken. It's comparable to wild venison. In any case, none of these are high sodium foods.

They could not have deliberately travelled the shortest possible distance between mainland Greece and Crete unless they had excellent astrogation and knowledge of geography, which they didn't. As regards the fish, I have eaten  raw mussels and raw oysters which were absolutely soaked in seawater. Even after squeezing them in a glass to get rid of some of the saltwater, plenty of saltwater remained in their flesh.So, I'd imagine the innards of the fish would also be similiarly soaked in seawater in the gills etc. etc.

[Iguana]

Shellfish is salty, fish flesh isn't.

We can drink some seawater also, this has been discussed several times here.
Didn't the sea level vary over time?

[TylerDurden]

Fair enough re fish/salt-content.Sea-levels did not vary much, looking at a suggested map of ice-age europe, the sea-distances would only be a tiny bit less..

[dariorpl]

They could not have deliberately travelled the shortest possible distance between mainland Greece and Crete unless they had excellent astrogation and knowledge of geography, which they didn't.

You keep missing the point. It's not necessary that they knew where they were going. All it takes is for one couple to go out into the sea for whatever reason and by a strike of luck, find an island. You're dealing with a period of 200 thousand years, it's certainly a possibility.

As regards the fish, I have eaten  raw mussels and raw oysters which were absolutely soaked in seawater. Even after squeezing them in a glass to get rid of some of the saltwater, plenty of saltwater remained in their flesh.So, I'd imagine the innards of the fish would also be similiarly soaked in seawater in the gills etc. etc.

You've never eaten fish?

Fish meat is a low sodium food. Their bodies work hard to keep all that salt from staying in their bodies, as otherwise it would kill them. Their meat is about 0.05% sodium by weight. Few organisms can survive with a high sodium level in their bodies. Like Iguana said, shellfish is about 10 times saltier than beef, at around 0.4-0.7% sodium by weight. But when you taste a super salty oyster or mussel, most of that salt comes from seawater that wasn't inside the flesh, but was just hanging in the animal's mouth/stomach. They feed by filtering microorganisms from seawater, so of course you'll find sea water in them, but you can just as well throw that water away before eating them. Seawater is about 3.5% sodium by weight.

[TylerDurden]

Couples did not migrate, tribes did in those times. It is simply not believeable that an entire tribe of c.150 people, young and old,  are going to just swim into the open ocean , hoping to reach some land in time before exhaustion sets in.It is rather more likely that rafts with sails were used to travel to Crete.

[dariorpl]

Couples did not migrate, tribes did in those times. It is simply not believeable that an entire tribe of c.150 people, young and old,  are going to just swim into the open ocean , hoping to reach some land in time before exhaustion sets in.It is rather more likely that rafts with sails were used to travel to Crete.

You keep missing the point... It doesn't take an entire tribe of 150 specimens to start a new colony on an island. All it takes is one male and one female.

[TylerDurden]

You keep missing the point... It doesn't take an entire tribe of 150 specimens to start a new colony on an island. All it takes is one male and one female.

People did not exist as isolated couples, they lived as part of a tribe of c.150 people. Isolated people would have had  a very low life-expectancy in palaeo times.

[dariorpl]

People did not exist as isolated couples, they lived as part of a tribe of c.150 people. Isolated people would have a very low life-expectancy in palaeo times.

...

Again, it doesn't matter if it was the norm or not.

And most of the low-life expectancy had to do with the fact that an isolated couple could not compete with other established tribes and other predators without being killed or starving. Having all of Crete to themselves would significantly increase the couple's life expectancy, and that of their offspring.

[TylerDurden]

Absurd. 1 couple alone, with all the eugenics in the world, could not possibly raise a new population. The end-result would be so many defects that not one person could have survived.

[dariorpl]

Absurd. 1 couple alone, with all the eugenics in the world, could not possibly raise a new population. The end-result would be so many defects that not one person could have survived.

And none of them did 

[TylerDurden]

And none of them did 

* sigh". I suggest you look at the statistics of  the consequences of interbreeding with brothers and sisters. It gets even worse over subsequent generations.

[dariorpl]

* sigh". I suggest you look at the statistics of  the consequences of interbreeding with brothers and sisters. It gets even worse over subsequent generations.

You can't compare interbreeding in current environments where most people have plenty of damaged genes, to a pristine situation where very few genes would be damaged.

[TylerDurden]

You can't compare interbreeding in current environments where most people have plenty of damaged genes, to a pristine situation where very few genes would be damaged.

Inbreeding is inbreeding. Even with copious elimination of those with defective genes, the gene-pool, derived from just 2 people, is simply too small to produce enough people with decent genes to pass on. It's sort of like the habsburg lip multiplied  by the power of 1000. Look at the jewish people, for example. They are derived from c. just 333 people, and have a wide number of genetic diseases , some of which solely affect them:-
http://www.jewishgeneticdiseases.org/jewish-genetic-diseases/

So, a palaeo  population derived just from an adam and eve is absurd. Now, tribes of 150, in a harsh palaeo setting where all those with defective dna get wiped out by Ma Nature, are a possibility, but the notion of old men and babies being able to swim 100+ km across the sea is absurd.

[goodsamaritan]

It could be. Although there is little or no evidence of them left on Earth.

Then again, most scientists believe in the big bang theory, so I don't see how that is any more unplausible

Maybe you just have not stumbled on PLENTIFUL information yet that there were human civilizations FAR OLDER, FAR MORE ADVANCED, than previously thought.
Did you know for example that there is a global network of HUNDREDS of pyramids and megalithic structures around the world?
And of course their dating is far older than this current civilization run up.

The channel Bright Insight can give you some introduction to what I am talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsIlJ9eYylZQcyfMOPNUz9w/videos

We human beings are engineered and domesticated and hybridized for many tens of thousands of years... I can and should dedicate a thread for this hypothesis. 

[goodsamaritan]

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WATCH HERE PLEASE:

https://youtu.be/1gRYRJvH4wc

Ancient Humans Were a Global Civilization: Ancient Connections & Lost Technology: Textbooks Debunked
Published on Apr 13, 2017

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Overwhelming evidence concludes that ancient human civilization was GLOBAL, and is FAR OLDER and MORE ADVANCED than we were ever taught in school. The evidence of lost ancient high technology can be found throughout multiple continents around the world, going much further than ancient Egypt.

Be sure to research the works (who my studies and sources are largely based upon):
Graham Hancock www.grahamhancock.com
Randall Carlson http://sacredgeometryinternational.com/randall-carlson
Brien Foerster: hiddenincatours.com and his YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOavg1FtdeuyUTLz3wmuIKQ

Be sure to checkout www.richardcassaro.com to see his incredible examples of similarities between ancient Egyptians and Incans.

Also special recognition to Bard Madsen of www.ancient-origins.net