Side effects using Dr Rons adrenal with cortex supplement

[Eurofusion]

About the time I went RAF (approx 4 months ago) I also started on the Dr Rons freeze dried Adrenal with cortex, as I am sure I had adrenal fatigue from years of sugar abuse, mostly chocolate. I was taking the adrenal caps fairly regularly and slowly increased from 1 cap a day to 3, taking them with my morning meat and egg nog (2 eggs, honey, coconut cream or raw milk). If I took them out of the cap and sprinkled them into my egg nog I would experience slight nausea about half an hour after taking the caps, so stopped taking them out of the cap.

But then a few times when I took them I would get quite a severe reaction where I felt like the sides of my diaphragm had been punched or were cramping or something and were on fire. I would feel a sudden onset of pain about 30 - 60 mins after taking the caps, and within a couple of minutes it would really set in, and would take about 30 minutes to subside. The severe pain also resulted in a low blood pressure attack, as well as the need to evacuate my bowels. It took me two or three times of this experience before I worked out it was the adrenal caps, as I realised the pain was originating from about where my adrenals sit. 

It was odd that it was intermittent, but I thought maybe it was dose related, so after abstaining a week or two, tapered it down to 2 caps. This caused a reaction also. I decided to give up on them, but then last weekend I tried 1 cap. All went well, so I tried 1 cap again yesterday with meat and a sizeable amount of suet (no egg nog). Again, all ok. Today I took the cap with meat and a little suet, and half an hour later I got the pain. It's left me feeling wiped out most of the day, and not feeling like eating much, save for a little bit of fruit (even though there was no nausea accompanying the pain).

I realise now that the pain probably depends on either the amount of fat I consume with the caps (maybe the fat buffers its release), or the cortex has a build up effect over a few days and my body can only take so much.  I need to research this, but I suspect it is the cortex that is causing the pain. I have found virtually no reference to side effects associated with freeze dried adrenal supplements, but I think that is because most of them do not contain the cortex.

Another thing I experienced with the caps when I was taking them regularly was, upon waking, I would feel a sense that something bad was going to happen. I later discovered Dr Lam's website which described exactly this. He put it more succinctly as a feeling of "impending doom". At the time I thought I was feeling that way because of all the noise in the news about the economy. But I went off the caps and the feeling stopped. This article from his site describes it:

http://www.drlam.com/adrenalfatiguecenter/7mistakesofadrenalfatigue.asp

One other symptom of the caps I had was that a few times I would break out in little, itchy lumps on my body that would appear within 5 minutes, but then were gone within the hour. The first time it happened I thought a flea was running rampant under my shirt. The lumps were circular and about the size of a flea bite. But then they disappeared without a trace so quickly, and there was not even a hint of itchiness or marking after an hour. It happened today after the pain subsided, only it was only a couple of lumps as opposed to the first time where there were at least two dozen on my neck and torso. V weird. Maybe an allergic reaction, but then why was it far less severe today.

I know that adrenal fatigue is one of the reasons some people are turning to RAF. I figured that these caps would be a close cousin to eating raw, but there's no way I am taking them again, even to experiment with the fat ratio mix. The pain is not worth it.

I read somewhere that low carbs can also put the adrenals under stress, which I can believe. I've done occasional half day fasts and that was really stressful on my system. I don't think it is worth trying to dive straight into a 100% carnivore style diet until my adrenals and other glands are back on track. The saying "slowly but surely" seems to be apt, at least for me. I would be interested though in how others have dealt with adrenal issues whilst being on a RAF diet.

[TylerDurden]

Yes, there's been talk re adrenal/thyroid becoming over-stressed while on zero-carb and it's common knowledge that on cooked diets at least, cooked animal foods become more difficult to digest for adrenal burnout sufferers so that they usually turn vegan in the end. Certainly, I didn't notice much of a stress on the adrenals when starting raw, low-carb all those years ago, and I had extreme adrenal burnout and thyroid issues at the time.

That said, I'm very surprised that you got a reaction from the adrenal supplement. I too take the adrenal supplement(plus cortex) every day and have never had a single problem(indeed my irises seem to be lightening up slightly since using them, so they seem to work). Of course, these days, I only take 1 pill a day, but, perhaps crucially, I also take 1 thyroid capsule (from Dr Ron's) a day as well. This is because I'd read various comments on this and other forums suggesting that it was a bad idea to try healing just the thyroid or the adrenals as they were interlinked - better to take supplements for both glands at the same time.

[Eurofusion]

Yeh, I've previously seen info on other sites and forums as well, re the thyroid/adrenal connection. Your response prompted me to research more thoroughly. www.stopthethyroidmadness.com seems to have a lot of info re this connection. I think Dr Lam also discusses it. I also did a little googling on pancreas + hypothyroid, and didn't find much anecdotal discussion, but did find some clinical studies on rats. In one study where they induced hypothyroidism, either the beta cells of the pancreas were diminished or the Islets of Langherans were damaged somehow. I can't remember. I wish I could find the link to that one again. But anyway, it makes sense in hindsight that a change or dysfunction in one endocrine gland would affect other endocrine glands. They are obviously all interdependent. Here's a couple of other links to study abstracts. (The second link will only show the abstract once, so if you browse away from the page and then go back to it you will be instead taken to a login page. It's probably just cookies as I could open it again in a different browsing client straight away).

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=5129628

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowPDF&ArtikelNr=000146100&Ausgabe=238542&ProduktNr=224197&filename=000146100.pdf

Reason for all this talk about pancreas is because I mentioned in a previous post that I have some symptoms of pancreatic insufficiency (not diabetes thankfully). I associate puffiness in my right eyelid with this. Sometimes though, I get puffiness in both eyelids, and stress, amongst other things, will induce this. Apparently the puffy eyelids is a tell-tale sign of hypothyroidism! Yes, all connected.

I am embarking on some tests, starting today with an adrenal stress profile (4 tubes of saliva from samples taken 8am, 12pm, 4pm, 8pm). Based on STTM website I also bought a thermometer today to check temps throughout the day to gauge both adrenals and thyroid. After reading the symptoms I figured I might be a contender. I always dismissed hypothyroid because I have a rather slight build (working on that at the gym  but apparently you can have hypothyroidism and not put on weight.

I wish I could continue with the adrenal supplement, as I am sure it was making a positive difference on those days where I was not buckling over in pain. I'll see how the lab results go. Maybe all the previous work I've done on my adrenals has actually made enough of a difference to bring them back to normal so that the supplement is not necessary.

[mel]

adrenal should never be taken regularly, you have to have it spaced randomly
ex:
mon 2 tabs
tue nothing
wed nothing
thurs 3 tabs
fri 1 tab
sat nothing
sunday nothing

It needs to be infrequent or a dependancy, adrenal output decrease or collapse because of the negative feedback loop. Your body for some reason decides what it will make hormonally and will make less and less if you reliably supplement.

This is important for some glandulars, but especially adrenal. I read this but then also experienced it firsthand.

[Eurofusion]

adrenal should never be taken regularly, you have to have it spaced randomly

The last times I took it with a reaction there was a considerable number of days between doses. (Except maybe the last time, I think that was the following day. Sorry, can't remember.) I don't take adrenal sups anymore. I think the problem with Dr Ron's is that it is not a specific dose, and quite possibly a rather high dose per cap. Isocort, etc, are measured doses. I did experience some of the "paradoxical" reactions that Dr Lam describes on his site, such as a sense of pending doom upon awakening. The feeling went away when I stopped taking it. I am using a gentler approach, e.g. Vit C and saline drink and finding this is helping. The biggest help is probably that I have also reduced high glycemic foods.

I do agree though, that adrenals should be taken only occasionaly. Also, if I venture back to them, I'll probably use something with a measured dose.

[TylerDurden]

adrenal should never be taken regularly, you have to have it spaced randomly
ex:
mon 2 tabs
tue nothing
wed nothing
thurs 3 tabs
fri 1 tab
sat nothing
sunday nothing

It needs to be infrequent or a dependancy, adrenal output decrease or collapse because of the negative feedback loop. Your body for some reason decides what it will make hormonally and will make less and less if you reliably supplement.

This is important for some glandulars, but especially adrenal. I read this but then also experienced it firsthand.

I agree that anyone taking adrenal or thyroid synthetic hormones should never take them regularly as that fouls up the body , but taking/eating raw adrenals or thyroid  regularly is perfectly fine as there's nothing artificial about them, being just like any other food.

[rafonly]

"hormones are not supplements" -- even the so-called biological versions
writes nora gedgaudas in her primal body primal mind

her supplement lists are not short, but only include ionic minerals, vitamins, fatty acids, aminoacids

{staying away from magnesium stearate, soy, etc. = a must in her book}

[Eurofusion]

"hormones are not supplements"

I tend to agree with this.

I ended up doing a cortisol stress profile test some weeks ago. The results were interesting in that the 8am, 4pm, and 8pm samples sat ideally within the "normal" range, per this chart at  http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%20Normal.html  My samples were virtually identical to the normal example in this chart, save for the 12pm sample which was a fair bit lower than it should be (though sitting just inside the "normal" range). The path lab did say this was suggestive of adrenal insufficiency. But I thought it was an odd pattern, as it doesn't match any of the adrenal fatigue patterns shown in the samples linked at the bottom of the chronicfatigue.org page. I did wonder if the low midday result was because I was doing morning fasting at the time. But then I found out that fasting actually causes extra cortisol to be released. It was all a bit mysterious.

Then today I got the results back of a comprehensive thyroid test. Turns out I have Hashimoto's, which is what I suspected due to swings from hyper to hypo. I also suspect it is caused by fungus from living in a very old, moldy house for 18 months many years ago. Post nasal drip started the first morning I awoke in that house, and I have had it ever since.

Anyway, to bring this all to a point, I will need to start treating with Dr Ron's desiccated thyroid until such time I can get rid of the cause of the high auto-antibodies, i.e. Hashi's (per recommendations at http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/hashimotos/ ). I don't want to be on thyroid supplements long term. I am concerned about doing zero carb, although I think it would get rid of any toxins causing the antibody attack.

Also, I suspect the pain I was getting from the adrenal caps was either connected to the Hashi's high-low swings, or, because there is no lab to regulate the dose of the actual hormones in the Dr Rons caps, some caps could have extra high levels of cortisol to other caps in the same bottle. Given my adrenals are for the most part producing normally, maybe the extra cortisol was too much for my adrenals. 

[zenfood]

Did you try MMS to clean out this virus?

[popeye]

So far, no noticeable side effects.  I've been taking 3 caps a day for around two weeks.  I'm not even sure if my adrenals are functioning abnormally but I have heard from many people that chronic fatigue has something to do with dis-regulation of the Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Adrenal axis.  I was thinking of getting a blood sample sent to a lab to test for glandular abnormalities.

[TylerDurden]

if you're taking adrenals it's a good idea to take the thyroid supplement as well. Heat-intolerance, incidentally, is a thyroid-related issue.

[popeye]

if you're taking adrenals it's a good idea to take the thyroid supplement as well. Heat-intolerance, incidentally, is a thyroid-related issue.

Thanks, I'll get some thyroid and take them both.  It certainly can't hurt.

[PaleoPhil]

I used to get mild pain and tightness in my adrenals, anxiety, etc. and a chiropractor who was recommended to me diagnosed me with adrenal insufficiency. I took his adrenal and other supplements for a while (I asked him beforehand how long I would have to take them to notice a difference, so he couldn't claim ex post facto that I didn't take them long enough), but didn't notice anything from them. He was a Weston Price fan, but I don't remember whether they were Dr. Ron's. I do remember that they said they were made from real adrenals instead of synthetics. When I saw I was getting no obvious benefits from his treatments and that he was using a bogus foot bath treatment on other patients I stopped going to him. Then when I went VLC the adrenal symptoms cleared up anyway.

[TylerDurden]

Most adrenal supplements are highly processed and are therefore useless. In my own case, I noticed a slight lightening of the iris after taking dr ron's adrenal and thyroid which seemed to indicate some benefit.

I ought to point out that a very common symptom of adrenal burnout is an inability to properly digest any cooked animal foods. My take on this is that cooked meat is more of a burden to digest than other foods, becoming more of a problem when adrenals are wiped out, and that , maybe, raw meat, while less problematic, might burden the adrenals too, in a smaller way. At any rate, in my own case, simply eating more raw meat did not do the trick. Getting rid of raw dairy on the other hand helped considerably, among other good habits.

[PaleoPhil]

Most adrenal supplements are highly processed and are therefore useless. In my own case, I noticed a slight lightening of the iris after taking dr ron's adrenal and thyroid which seemed to indicate some benefit.

Yes, that's interesting. I wonder if the adrenals are high in cysteine. Apparently they do contain cysteine string protein.

[Fermenter Zym]

Most adrenal supplements are highly processed and are therefore useless. In my own case, I noticed a slight lightening of the iris after taking dr ron's adrenal and thyroid which seemed to indicate some benefit.

How many capsules of each do you take and at what schedule, Tyler? I have adrenal and thyroid problems from chronic Lyme Disease and have considered supplementing with Dr. Ron's products. I was also curious how much liver you eat because these supplements both contain desiccated liver.

[cherimoya_kid]

How many capsules of each do you take and at what schedule, Tyler? I have adrenal and thyroid problems from chronic Lyme Disease and have considered supplementing with Dr. Ron's products. I was also curious how much liver you eat because these supplements both contain desiccated liver.

I'm not speaking for Tyler, but generally, not going to extremes re: carbs/fats/protein is helpful for adrenal issues.  Raw coconut oil seems to really help with thyroid issues. Also, seafoods that contain lots of iodine are probably helpful for thyroid issues.

[TylerDurden]

How many capsules of each do you take and at what schedule, Tyler? I have adrenal and thyroid problems from chronic Lyme Disease and have considered supplementing with Dr. Ron's products. I was also curious how much liver you eat because these supplements both contain desiccated liver.

  I no longer take them because I find them far too expensive, despite their high quality. I used to take 1 or 2 capsules a day or so of both types as well as 1 or 2 capsules of brain.

[KD]

generally, not going to extremes re: carbs/fats/protein is helpful for adrenal issues.

You've mentioned alot lately about this in regards to other issues or long term stability of those extremes. I was wondering if you can expand on that more in another thread. I know Hannibal for a time was claiming to switch between VLC and something of a higher carb (more than traditional LC values anyway) along with consistant 'high' fat and presumably still alot of protein. hey...high everything!

Not sure how this pans out in regards to whatever other theories are out there which seem to contradict that as dooable, despite being often the mode in cooked societies anyway. I'm sure more than myself would be interested. If you didn't want to start a new thread maybe you could comment here?

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/hed-high-everything-diet-using-raw-paleo-food-high-metabolism-a-good-thing/msg42543/#msg42543

[Dorothy]

We got a bunch of Standard Process stuff - supposed to be the best - the WAPF folks seem to be really into that brand - then realized that they had stearates in them. I was shocked - never even thought to ask because they are  supposed to be whole food and nothing else. When I took hubbie off all stearates in supplements it helped him a bunch. Don't know if Dr. Ron's is like Standard Process - but just make sure the supplement doesn't have any kind of stearate in it as you might be reacting to that and not the actual food.

[PaleoPhil]

Dr. Ron's doesn't use stearate and he explained in a letter how other companies use it. They use it as a lubricant on the machinery and some gets on the surface of the tablets or capsules. So if you don't want to buy Dr. Ron's another strategy is to buy capsule type supplements and remove the capsule and only use the pure powder inside it, thus removing the stearate. You'd want to check the supplement ingredients to make sure there aren't fillers in the powder itself. Dr. Ron's seems to be high quality.

[Fermenter Zym]

Has anyone else here had success with raw adrenals and raw thyroid?

My naturopath wants me to get a pancreatin supplement so I was thinking of ordering Dr. Ron's Pancreas supplement and maybe also the adrenal and thyroid.

[Duke]

But why would you want a pancreatic supplement? Did he tell u the reason?

[Adora]

I took raw adrenals a couple of times and raw thyroid 1x. I never had problems, but I did take my adrenals with lots of suet and meat in my meal. The adrenals are actually part of the suet. You have to work to separate them- not me. I just bit into the whole chunk I cut. I didn't eat more that a few bites of the small glands at a time, and I didn't eat it every day. I take no caffeine. Do you?
      The glands were fine I would like to get them again. You can order them from north star bison, but you have to call and tell them to include the suet. My butcher just gave me the kidneys with all of the suet and the adrenals were there.
      I think that cold showers could be benificial. I just restarted them so I'm in the unpleasant stage, but after about 2 weeks of daily cold showers my thyroid and immune system kicked on. I always seem to sleep 8-10 hrs, which is more than usual for other RAVF eaters, but I was more alert and peppy furring the day.
     Getting started is a kind of torture, but it gets to be an addictive thing. If you have any interest I would love to have a partner for encouragement and commiseration.

[Duke]

Iodine is very good; if few drops are taken, it will give you the kick / energy you're seeking for. Give it a try.