Vitamin C and carnivorism

[xylothrill]

I found this some time back:

Vitamin C is needed to hydroxylate the amino acids lysine and proline into hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline- connective tissue. That is why scurvy is characterized by a degeneration of connective tissue. However, unknown to most, red meat already contains hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline which is absorbed into the bloodstream when eaten. Thus, less vitamin C is needed to hydroxylate proline and lysine, because they are already present in the blood in the hydroxylated state.

However, one might ask about the role vitamin C plays in antioxidant function. Sure, a purely carnivorous diet will prevent scurvy, but will it replace the other biochemical functions of vitamin C? While those who regularly consume liver and brains do not need to concern themselves too much here, what about those carnivores who consume primarily muscle meat and eggs? Sure, they may be free from scurvy, but are there some other unseen health effects, such as excessive free radical damage from lack of vitamin C?

First of all, a ketogenic metabolism produces less free radicals than a carbohydrate-burning metabolism. Secondly, there are numerous other substances, endogenous and dietary, that act as antioxidants present on a purely carnivorous diet. But what if this is insufficient? Should meat and eggers be worried?

Fortunately, the answer no. And the answer may lie in uric acid.

Uric acid is derived from purines in meat. They are the final metabolic end-product of purine compounds. This is because the genes encoding for the production of the enzyme uricase, needed to break down uric acid, have been absent from primate DNA for millions of years.

The thing that makes ascorbate as a molecule useful is the property of being a strong electron donor. Uric acid is also a strong electron donor (1). In fact, it may even be a better electron donor than vitamin C (2). Because of this, uric acid is a powerful antioxidant, similar to vitamin C. Thus, it follows that the loss of the enzyme uricase and the consequent increase in blood levels of uric acid in primates has probably provided a substitute for ascorbate in certain biochemical functions, including antioxidant activity.

Since meat is rich in purines, uric acid is inevitably abundant in the bloodstream of someone who consumes a large amount of muscle meat and organ products. Conclusion: Even if a human carnivore does not consume vitamin C-containing animal products, a purely carnivorous diet is still sufficient to produce the biochemical functions that vitamin C is normally responsible for.


http://askesisphilosophyandcarnivorism.blogspot.com/2007/10/uric-acid-and-vitamin-c.html (link no longer exists but is cached in Google.)

This does make sense. Linus Pauling recommended lysine, proline, and vit C to prevent heart disease. If the body is indeed able to utilize the preformed hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline directly as well as using uric acid to perform most of the other functions of vit C, vit C requirements would be greatly reduced.

Scurvy on ships may have been a result of cooking their food coupled with a diet high in grains as grains were easily stored. Cooking coagulates protein, rendering much of it unusable to the body, as well as destroying the little vit C we may need. Those on strictly carnivorous diets usually eat their food very lightly cooked or raw.

[Kristelle]

Interesting.

My personal experience on a raw meat diet has been that I was lacking certain things like vitamin C (and iodine). But, the reason could well have been due to problems in digesting my meat and not absorbing its contents well enough.

I suspect my digestive problems were caused by insufficient fat intake such that I hadn't enough fuel for proper digestion, somewhat similar to what happens during rabbit starvation.

I REALLY upped my fat intake lately and feel much better. I could drop my green pepper and iodized sea salt to see how I fare on raw meat alone, this time, properly digested in the presence of much more fat. But I'm also scared that certain symptoms may come back, like bleeding gums, low energy, etc.

So, I'll keep on eating a very high-fat diet and maybe eventually let go of the above.

[xylothrill]

I'm sure you're aware of this but am just posting this again for the benefit of our new members.
The fat-soluble vitamins and cofactors in animal fat are very important for the absorption of minerals and other nutrients so these quotes would probably apply to any diet high in protein and low in fat. The focus here is on minerals but I've no doubt that absorption in general may be effected by a lack of saturated fat.

It's very important to get enough fat and I've always eat quite a bit of it because I was always afraid of getting rabbit starvation. I also posted these in another thread for someone who was drinking protein shakes.

The claim that animal protein intake causes calcium loss from the bones is another popular nutritional myth that has no backing in nutritional science. The studies that supposedly showed protein to cause calcium loss in the urine were NOT done with real, whole foods, but with isolated amino acids and fractionated protein powders (3).

When studies were done with people eating meat with its fat, NO calcium loss was detected in the urine, even over a long period of time (3). Other studies have confirmed that meat eating does not affect calcium balance (4) and that protein promotes stronger bones (5). Furthermore, the saturated fats that many experts believe are so evil are actually required for proper calcium deposition in the bones (6).

From: http://www.powerofmeat.com/High_Protein_Diets.htm

Protein powders are the culprit proteins

What is significant in the various studies of protein intake and bone density is that the studies which purported to show protein intake caused calcium loss were not conducted with real foods but with isolated amino acids and fractionated protein powders of the sort used by low-carb dieters and athletes. The reason why these amino acids and fat-free protein powders caused calcium loss while the fat meat diet did not is because protein, calcium, and minerals require the fat-soluble vitamins A and D for their assimilation and utilisation by the body. When protein is consumed without these factors it upsets the normal biochemistry of the body and mineral loss results.[xviii] True vitamin A and full-complex vitamin D are only found in animal fats. Furthermore, saturated fats that are present with meat are essential for proper calcium deposition in the bones.[xix] It should be no surprise, therefore that vegan diets have been shown to place women at the greatest risk for osteoporosis.[xx] [xxi]

From: http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/osteoporosis.html

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

great posts Craig,

because of your posts ive thrown out the rest of my protein powders and all my other supplements and am going to go with 100% whole foods. thanks man. supplements $add$ up quick too, so more money for high-quality foods.

in regards to your original post in this thread:

what exactly does the "Hydroxy" part mean, is it that theres a Hydrogen and Oxygen molecule attatched to the amino acid? (maybe our team Biologist Kyle would be able to expound on this?)
and i guess that means that the body doesnt seperate the hydroxy from the  proline/lysine before getting absorbed into the bloodstream, seeing if it did, than the body would need VitC to put it back together, as per the description of that process.

[lex_rooker]

Some years ago a friend recommended that I try some of the high tech protein powders used by weight lifters (he was a weight lifter himself). He was convinced that the hydrolyzed protein from whey and eggs was some sort of magic bullet.  I tried several of the top brands and all they seemed to do for me was cause indigestion and significantly lighten my wallet as none of them were inexpensive.

Lex

[Raw Kyle]

what exactly does the "Hydroxy" part mean, is it that theres a Hydrogen and Oxygen molecule attatched to the amino acid? (maybe our team Biologist Kyle would be able to expound on this?)
and i guess that means that the body doesnt seperate the hydroxy from the  proline/lysine before getting absorbed into the bloodstream, seeing if it did, than the body would need VitC to put it back together, as per the description of that process.

Hydroxy means there is a hydroxyl group attached to a molecule; the hydroxyl group is an oxygen and hydrogen usually shorthanded as OH. An OH has a negative charge, add another hydrogen and it's a neutral water molecule, which is usually how these things are put together or taken apart, by getting rid of the hydroxyl and hydrogen ends forming a water molecule and a longer organic molecule chain or using a water molecule to create a hydroxyl end and hydrogen end to each molecule that were formerly connected.

I think the point is that the end product that Vitamin C is most important for is already in meat so it's redundant and unnecessary. It's like how you can either get Vitamin A directly from meat, or you can get the precursor carotenoids in fruits and vegetables and then put it together in your body.

Interesting aside about Vitamin C:

Among the animals that have lost the ability to synthesise vitamin C are simians (specifically the suborder haplorrhini), guinea pigs, a number of species of passerine birds (but not all of them), and in apparently many major families of bats and perhaps all of them. Humans have no enzymatic capability to manufacture vitamin C. The cause of this phenomenon is that the last enzyme in the synthesis process, L-gulonolactone oxidase, cannot be made by the listed animals because the gene for this enzyme, Pseudogene ?GULO, is defective.[24] The mutation has not been lethal because vitamin C is abundant in their food sources. It has been found that species with this mutation (including humans) have adapted a vitamin C recycling mechanism to compensate.[25] (Wikipedia)

[riy freeman]

Hey Tyler, do you think this had any relevance to your ZC experience?

Vitamin C deficiency

Lack of ascorbic acid in the daily diet leads to a disease called scurvy, a form of avitaminosis that is characterized by:

    * Loose teeth
    * Superficial bleeding
    * Fragility of blood vessels
    * Poor healing
    * Compromised immunity
    * Mild anemia.

[TylerDurden]

Hey Tyler, do you think this had any relevance to your ZC experience?

Vitamin C deficiency

Lack of ascorbic acid in the daily diet leads to a disease called scurvy, a form of avitaminosis that is characterized by:

    * Loose teeth
    * Superficial bleeding
    * Fragility of blood vessels
    * Poor healing
    * Compromised immunity
    * Mild anemia.

Well, I did have loose teeth. But vitamin C exists in raw meats, particularly things like raw liver, so I doubt it was that.

I presume that decades of ill-health on SAD diets somehow made my body unable to handle an all-animal food diet/ketogenic diet in the long-term, however raw - perhaps it had something to do with my increasing inability, in pre-rawpalaeo days, to digest any cooked-animal foods properly due to adrenal burnout?

Given my last RZC experiment, I can handle RZC for as long as 3 weeks, with only a very few noticeable effects before that point, such as a drop in physical endurance re sport, but after that point, things go downhill.

[riy freeman]

But is it possible that the level of vit c you are getting isn't high enough so hence the symptoms?

Also considering

1.The level of vit c in meats in general is considerably lower than fruits/veg
2. Ground meats could have diminished vit c due to exposure to oxygen and henceforth rapid degradation
3. A lot of the guys here like to age their meats therefore further vit c degradation
4. Farmed meats in general might have overall lowered vit c compared to wild
5. High meats might have lessened vit c due to microbe conversion of it? (this point might be mute)

[sabertooth]

I instinctively have been drinking lemon water daily while doing low carb, I will use about two lemons every day, I think its all I need to avoid c deficiency.

I drink one glass when I wake up and one when I get off of work, it seems to work for me. I take no supplements whatsoever now and live off of a diet mainly of meat, fat,organs ,coconut, and lemon water with no signs of deficiency.

[TylerDurden]

But is it possible that the level of vit c you are getting isn't high enough so hence the symptoms?

Also considering

1.The level of vit c in meats in general is considerably lower than fruits/veg
2. Ground meats could have diminished vit c due to exposure to oxygen and henceforth rapid degradation
3. A lot of the guys here like to age their meats therefore further vit c degradation
4. Farmed meats in general might have overall lowered vit c compared to wild
5. High meats might have lessened vit c due to microbe conversion of it? (this point might be mute)

I eat raw wild game mostly, and only rarely eat ground meat.

But the onset of nasty symptoms I had appeared rather too quickly for sucrvy to be the cause. I think(?) that scurvy took months to start appearing among sailors, by contrast.

[riy freeman]

well scurvy would be like late stage- meaning past symptoms and more into the disease category right.

Also I just found some articles citing that Vitamin C is lost from freezing while VItamins A and D are not. Are your wild game meats frozen ever?

Damn Vitamin C!

[riy freeman]

Found this as well:

"The onset  of symptoms of scurvy depends on how long it takes for the person to use up their limited stores of vitamin C. For example, if the diet includes no vitamin C at all, the average onset of symptoms is about four weeks."The onset  of symptoms of scurvy depends on how long it takes for the person to use up their limited stores of vitamin C. For example, if the diet includes no vitamin C at all, the average onset of symptoms is about four weeks."

[TylerDurden]

well scurvy would be like late stage- meaning past symptoms and more into the disease category right.

Also I just found some articles citing that Vitamin C is lost from freezing while VItamins A and D are not. Are your wild game meats frozen ever?

Damn Vitamin C!

Sometimes they have been frozen, not always. But the point is that vitamin C exists in raw meats in trace amounts, higher amounts than that being in raw liver(which I consume quite often).

Besides, people like Lex eat 100 percent RZC diets and have never had scurvy-like symptoms. Of course, one might argue that those people like me who cannot handle RZC can only properly use/absorb the vitamin C obtained from raw plant foods.

[sabertooth]

I often wonder about lost nutrition due to freezing, I have noticed I feel like somethings missing if I eat thawed food for more than a few days in a row. It not something essential, but non the less I lose my apatite for frozen and crave fresh flesh.

[goodsamaritan]

I often wonder about lost nutrition due to freezing, I have noticed I feel like somethings missing if I eat thawed food for more than a few days in a row. It not something essential, but non the less I lose my apatite for frozen and crave fresh flesh.

I follow Aajonus' opinion against freezing.
I make it a point not to freeze my meat because it tastes better.
So I buy smaller quantities of fresh meat that I'm sure to finish in a week's time.

[Stancel]

I believe most wild fruit is exceptionally high in Vitamin C compared to the domesticated fruits commonly available. This would mean you wouldn't need to eat as much fruit to get a lot of Vitamin C. I think the RDA for Vitamin C is too low but then again it may just be because Vitamin C is so depleted in fruits and vegetables today. I think a more optimal RDA would be 1000 mg.

Yeah sure you can have a little Vitamin C to prevent scurvy but who wants to simply be on the edge of scurvy?

[Carne Cruda]

Nice post:
while I was aware about all the rest (uric acid, less free radicals and so on), I didn't know about the "hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline" aspect.

So, I shall leave a comment on this thread so that I might find it easily in the future, if it need to.

[Hydrogenisagas]

It seems there is not a universal diet for everyone, search online for metabolic type tests. Dr. Mercola provides a free one on his site that reminded me about the raw paleo diet and this forum which is why I'm back here.

I was eating mostly sprouts that I grew myself from organic seed and fruit, based on the greensmoothie lady's website but I was always bloated, putting on weight dramatically, always eating because I was always hungry no matter how much fruit or nuts I ate. I tested as a protein metabolic type on Dr. Mercola's metabolic quiz on his website, protein types need a lot of fat in our diet. I found the metabolic testing researching diabetes because I developed a sweet taste in my mouth that did not go away. I got back on raw meat right away, and my cravings went away.

I usually skip breakfast, eat a pound of raw ground beef lightly salted and warmed in warm water (i don't have access to fresh meat, mine comes frozen in a vacuum packed plastic bag which I thaw in cold water then switch to hot/warm water to warm it through before I open the bag) because it tastes better warm than cold and a pound of my sprouts covered in extra virgin organic cold pressed olive oil, raw garlic, and lightly salted for lunch. For dinner I have some raw egg yolks or hard cheese and another pound of sprouts. Just got started doing this again a couple of days ago and already the sweet taste in my mouth seems to be going away. My bloated stomach is flattening out, gas all but totally gone, cravings gone. I stay completely satisfied all day. I need to get some more organ meat back in my diet but I've only been back to raw paleo a few days and I know most won't eat concentrated oils but this is where I am now, and right now I'm feeling much better.

I'll keep you posted.

The purpose for replying to this thread was to state that we have a range of metabolic types from protein based to carb based and a mixture of the two based on our heredity. I have more indigenous background that doesn't do so well on carbs, but I thrive on raw meat. You may just be the opposite. I think we all need chlorophyll and phytonutrients found in plants mostly wild plants leaves. Any plant that is not poisonous has medicinal value...add that to a raw meat diet for us protein types or the starchy carbohydrate types and I think you have a real winner of a healthy eatting plan. I think we all should be careful of GMO ANYTHING and fruits or veggies overbred. Sweet suppresses the immune system and bitter stimulates, supports, and invigorates it. Most wild apples are bitter not sweet. Hybrid foods are pretty new and we selected the ones that were highly palatable ie. Sweet and propogated them. Not too many cultivars found in grocery stores are anything like the wild specimens. We just need to think a little bit about how things are naturally found. Like in the Northwest there are many wild berries found that all become ready during different parts of the growing season, full of vitamin c and phenols and phytonutrients etc. Which we would have thrown down on when we found them when we were wild. I still do today. Even pine needles make a vitamin c rich tea or.you.can just chew on them spitting out the pulp.

Seasonal fruit is likely more sparcely found, lots of healthy wild plants, and whatever meat we could chase down. It's not all that difficult to figure out. If you live in a natural setting walk outside and see what grows there and lives there...that is what we are meant to eat. If not...watch a nature documentary whatever you see that is not poisonous ie. plants and not sharp like a porcupine that is what we should be eating. Fruit is not found in large quantities in nature nor are vegetables. Green leafy plants are abundant in nature, most of them are very healing medicinally and will contain vitamins and bioavailable minerals and a whole host of other characteristics science is just now coming to understand as well as beneficial bacteria in the soil they grow in around the roots which are also necessary for proper healthy digestion. The majority of your immune system is in your gut. Animals used to be much more prolific in nature before we over-harvested them and destroyed their habitat with "civilization". Making them much more available for food previously. And cook in meat especially at high temperatures like over a fire leaves behind carcinogenic toxins.

From all my research it just seems like it is just so darn complex to survive and thrive as a vegan. Even the Okinawa's eat meat.

Some people's ancestors lived where there was more ready access to carbs like fruit and starchy veggies and less meat, likely near the equator and yet other people's ancestors lived where there was more access to animal proteins. It's all about your individual needs based on your metabolic type which is based on your heredity, neither is right or wrong idealistically...just certain ways of eating based on your heredity. We can all benefit from eating a few more medicinal wild weeds though....just my 2 cents based on my research and personal experiences. Hope this helps.

[Xisca]

I also eat wild weeds and some regular veggies, and I am surprised if some avoid them, as they were as part of the diet as raw meat, after all we are omnivores! I like to eat meat with veggies or with fruits.