Confuzzled...

[MrBBQ]

Well, after some encouragement from my very good friends around here, I've decided to forego the searing altogether and keep the thermodynamics away from the fine flesh.

I've just taken a brand new carving knife and chopping board, and cut myself ~70g of thin slices of pastured Angus, which I placed alongside a garnish of finely chopped onion, garlic, cayenne, ginger, sun-dried sea salt and extra virgin olive oil.

I have to say that it tasted just like a butcher's shop smells - not very much like even rare cooked beef! I chewed a small slither beforehand without any adulteration, just to acquaint myself with the pure taste/texture. Quite unprecedented...Maybe I'll experiment with mustard and spices 'til I acquire the taste...

So, I'll just wait and see what happens now...I have some lamb chops and lamb's liver, as well as some beef bones in the fridge, which I'll be finishing over the next few days.

@Cosmo: Where do you order the NZ lamb from?

@TylerDurden: On a long enough time line, the survival rate of everyone drops to zero (sorry, just messing about). Do you buy grass-fed meat locally or via farms further afield? There's only one shop (it seems) in my locality that sells pastured meat and the farmer's market here is rubbish. The Angus beef that I bought worked out at £30/kg and the lamb chops a little less. I don't object to paying for quality, but I was just wondering what is actually considered reasonable to the seasoned (no pun intended) RAFer.

Thanks again for the help and support, which I really appreciate. This forum is an invaluable resource for the newbie.

Cheers,

MrBBQ

[Cosmo]

@Cosmo: Where do you order the NZ lamb from?

MrBBQ, I order it from Sainsbury's online :-)))))) I did my own research about NZ lamb and found out it that it's 100% grass fed. I'm happy with it so far although it's not organic. And by the way I buy it already minced so all I have to do is - add some spices to it and eat :-))) yes, i'm lazy like that!

[MrBBQ]

Nice one Cosmo, although I can only find 2 instances of minced lamb on Sainsbury's Online - either non-organic or organic...However, none of these say anything about NZ...

Which one do/did you choose?

Is the lamb mince lean or nice and fatty?!

Would I be better popping into a local Sainsbury's and asking for just NZ minced lamb? Have you had any "trouble" with this supermarket offering?

I'm now scrambling for alternatives because the local grass-fed butcher (well, not him but the meat! ;-)) is offering cuts at astronomical prices, which I'd struggle to afford in more quantity than 100g/day...

Thanks in advance, as usual!

MrBBQ

[TylerDurden]

Buying meat from a supermarket is for me a no-no. Yous ee, supermarkets always have to buy in bulk and that inevitably means that the suppliers/farmers have to lower quality in order to provide that large a quantitity. I've even heard(admittedly unsubstantiated) reports that much of NZ lamb is grain-fiinished during the last 3 months before slaughter.

Re buying foods:-  I have the excellent london farmers' markets association here in London which has a dozen farmers' markets under their purview all over the capital. All such markets are semi-organic providing high-quality food in most cases(though some fools cheat and feed their buffalo on grains etc - one has to ask re grazing etc.) I have in the past ordered from grassfed meat farms elsewhere, particularly for grassfed marrow and suet, and that works fine as they deliver direct to your door(just ask them to put it in a discreet corner near the door as no one steals such parcels, IMO). There's usually a standard delivery charge which is the same no matter the amount of food you buy, so just buy a £100 of raw meats at a time, store most of it in the freezer, and that should be fine.

As regards finding grassfed meat farms, that's easy, just google "grassfed meat farm" followed by the name of the county you're searching in, and you'll come up with numerous examples with contact details.

Re price:- That £30 for kilo of angus beef must be for organic 100% grassfed fillet steak. When i first started, I would prefer to go for organ-meats as they were so much cheaper(raw tongue and raw heart are much like muscle-meat in texture yet a whole ox tongue costs 5 to 8 pounds depending on the seller and a raw ox heart is often sold for the same despite being huge). Even if you go for muscle-meats, buying stewing-steak is a hell of a lot cheaper than fillet-steak and just as good re nutritional value.Other organs I've bought were marrow at 1 pound fifty pence a kilo(admittedly including the weight of the bone), raw suet at 5 pounds a kilo etc.

Lamb(and especially mutton is cheaper and more likely to be grassfed than beef). For example at my local farmers' market I can get a whole leg of lamb for 18 pounds and whole leg of mutton for 13-14 pounds, which should last a day or two.

Wild game is even cheaper. I get a wild hare carcass(easily supplying meat enough for 2 days, maybe 3) which costs anywhere from 7 to 13 pounds.

[Cosmo]

Nice one Cosmo, although I can only find 2 instances of minced lamb on Sainsbury's Online - either non-organic or organic...However, none of these say anything about NZ...

Which one do/did you choose?

Is the lamb mince lean or nice and fatty?!

Would I be better popping into a local Sainsbury's and asking for just NZ minced lamb? Have you had any "trouble" with this supermarket offering?

MrBBQ, there's no organic lamb in my local supermarket, that's why I have to buy non-organic NZ lamb.
Being based in Derby doesn't help if you a dedicated raw paleo eater :-)
If I had a choice, I'd go for organic meat just like Tyler recommends.
Having said that, so far I had no problems whatsoever with non-organic meat and organs and will keep buying them untill I find an alternative.
That particular NZ lamb is quite fatty and doesn't cost a bomb.
Let us know what you think of it.
Where about are you based?
Cosmo

[MrBBQ]

Hey Cosmo+Tyler (and my other good contemporaries, of course),

I've not been near a PC over the weekend (grafting in the heat mainly), so I've only just seized the opportunity to come back.

So, up to now, I've had 100% grass-finished Angus beef, lamb and lamb's liver...The liver did not seem bitter, but for me, it's truly a taste that I'll have to acquire (I never liked it cooked when my family used to eat it either). Anyone know any good marinades?! I've also eaten every raw flesh meal with finely chopped onion, garlic, chillies, cayenne and ginger (mixed with a little sun-dried sea salt and first cold pressed olive oil)...Does anyone know a good source for virgin macadamia oil in the UK? (I've picked up a couple of online sources, but they're approaching £15 per half litre)

I suppose it's not always that easy to source organic and grass-fed/finished meat, but like Tyler said to me, with some extra effort calling regional farms (farm shops) and maybe some regular driving (foraging!), better value meat is potentially accessible. I've just been googling for things like "grass/pasture/free range farm shop [region/county]" and asking the proprietors the usual questions. Most people are offering heart, tongue, bones, suet and other bits at a decent price (or complementary!). I've also been eating cuts that've been in my fridge for a week, which have not really diminished in taste (I suppose they keep them hanging for a while anyway).

@Cosmo: So am I right to understand that the non-organic minced lamb is implicitly from NZ? Let me ask again - is it grass or grain-finished based on your research?
@Tyler: What do you know about the finishing of the NZ lamb?!
(I mean, let's at least establish the facts)

@Tyler: I'm slightly paraniod about eating liver due to liver flukes, which grow from larvae into adults higher in the food chain. I decided to rinse the first piece of liver that I tried, plus I cut it into very thin slices and inspected each slice, including the hepatic ducts for any lesions/damage or small foreign bodies. Apparently, liver fluke is particularly prevalent in cattle and sheep, especially in the marshy pastures of the United Kingdom. Do you know if any animals with such an infection could be allowed to enter our food chain via a high quality free range/grass-finished farm/butcher, and/or otherwise, do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any knowledge/experience with liver flukes? (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascioliasis#Human_fasciolosis)

@goodsamaritan: I know you're an advocate of raw liver, particularly as a "multivitamin for tooth healing"...What's your knowledge about the prevalence of flukes and becoming a competent "liver chef" (inspecting for damage/foreign bodies)?

Ultimately, would a farmer/vet with any kind of responsibility allow a fascioliasis-diseased liver into the human food chain? Is it at all probable that asymptomatic fascioliasis could make it into a farm shop and into my gut/liver/gallbladder?!

Apparently, aquatic/marsh plants (e.g. water cress, lamb's lettuce, dandelion, ...) and some other plants are another vector/vehicle into the human ecosystem...

It's making me wonder about that cat-based brain parasite (Toxoplasma gondii) that was mentioned on here as well because my next door neighbour has 12 disgusting (ex-stray) cats and I always used to forage wild plants (dandelions, nettles) from my garden, which was a frequent dumping ground for these animals (I always did a daily check/removal of animal feces and thoroughly rinsed my wild plants, which may not have been enough!). I don't recall my personality shifting that much though!

At the moment, I'm doing a typical parasite cleanse (tincture+caps), coupled with regular liver flushes, but looking at some of the damaged animal livers, it's quite alarming what these flukes can do!

Based on what I've read, the liver fluke can often be the precursor to many/most disease processes. Really, avoiding this beast is of utmost importance...

If anyone has any flukey/fascioliasis insights, it would be most appreciated thanks (I want to keep this liver munching up, along with my high-vitamin CLO!).

ULTIMATELY, I suppose what I'm wondering is if this is russian roulette or if we have a chance through a failsafe approach to procuring/preparing animal livers...Please allay my fears!

All the best,

MrBBQ

[TylerDurden]

I got told this info re nz lamb by someone on the primal diet list years ago. No solid facts, but most of the info we get re quality of farms is anecdotal.

Re liver-flukes:- Look, all farm animals in the west get routinely dewormed, usually vaccinated and given endless medicines even the organic-raised ones. So parasites aren't an issue in western lands. That said, I've been eating raw wild game for years with no issues from parasites so I KNOW it's not a problem. You'll just have to keep on eating raw meats/lover or whatever, add on any anti-parasitic herbs - eventually, you'll get lazy and forget to add the herbs and you'll find, inevitably, that you're fine.

[MrBBQ]

@Tyler: As ever, a rapid response, which is most appreciated. 

I suppose it's all down to buying well-raised animals that've lived natural lives (wild or pseudo-wild/farmed!), so I can concur, to a certain extent...However, I'll never be less than vigilant...One only owes it to oneself to minimise complications of raw food preparation, plant or animal sourced...I hate that "hindsight is always 20/20" when some clever so-and-so is doing their "told you so bit". I appreciate your efficacy-based anecdote along with reassuring fact...

Conversely, I would never take anti-whatever herbs for any extended length of time, given their associated (well-established) toxicities/effects...As such, it would not be out of a relaxation of vigilance, but more out of routine. I do actually love onion/garlic/spices/ginger, so I'll just keep up that protocol for a while 'til it sickens me (even though they also have their well-established toxicity/impact on GI tract).

Does everyone use water-diluted (e.g. 50/50) lemon juice (to give enough volume to cover the meat) or is full-potency, freshly-squeezed lemon juice the norm (I can imagine it's labour-intensive and expensive to squeeze plenty of lemons all the time - or can it be reused?!).

[Cosmo]

MrBBQ, I don't know for sure, if some of NZ lamb is grain finished.
All I know is that whenever I eat it I feel great afterward and that's all that matters to me at the moment.
It would be great to visit NZ and find out every single detail about lamb farming.
By the way, guys (including Tyler), do you every take into account quality of the water that animals consume? I'm sure that water in NZ is of much superior quality that in the UK, so organic or not, grass-fed or not, polluted water could do more harm than anything else.
I hope that you all remember that the water content in humans and animals is about 70%.

[TylerDurden]

The issue re toxicity of anti-aparasitical herbs is irrelevant as these only are a problem if you consume the herbs in huge amounts. In small amounts for long periods, they're fine and extremely beneficial in other ways, not just parasites.

Re lemon-juice marinade:- we just use 100% freshly-squeezed lemon-juice.

Re water-content:- I'd imagine that organic  grassfed meat farms are the same all over the world, with only water in tropical countries possibly being contaminated.

[MrBBQ]

@Tyler: Thanks for the concise answers - most appreciated.

@Cosmo: Thanks for the invaluable interjections. So just to clarify, you're just buying straight non-organic minced lamb from Sainsbury's (nothing about NZ on the label?)?! If I'm going through a skint period and struggling to afford decent quality meat, I'll fall back to this minced NZ lamb (or even if I just can't be bothered travelling to the other side of town, which I have to do at the moment). It's an interesting point about water...Do organic standards dictate spring water?

Going back to the antihelmintics and stuff, I'm presuming that we're generally referring to wormwood, cloves and green black walnut hulls (amongst the more tolerable others like cayenne, garlic, onion etc.)...After reviewing a lot of the "hearsay" about regular/irregular dosing of wormwood over short or long periods, I'm wondering what a safe maintenance/proactive dose would be (during my paranoid/immature phase)...Any ideas?

Also, I've just opened a plastic bag in my fridge containing some free stuff like bones, fat offcuts and even some fatty slithers of meat. There was a very slight "off" smell, but I've just cut up some of the fat into small chunks and been munching on it throughout the morning. Where's the line between edible "off" and inedible "off", or is it down to personal taste/discretion? I don't want to go down the overgrowth/pathogenesis argument, but I'm wondering how rotten people are eating their forages, even when they're complementary?

Thanks for the typically sound attitude in this forum!

All the best,

MrBBQ

[MrBBQ]

Oh, also on the matter of older meat/fat that's been kept in a plastic bag in the fridge...What's the risk of botulism?! I read about eskimos contributing to botulism statistics in the USA due to their meat fermentation practices...Quite worrying the effect of this particular nerve toxin...

Does anyone have tips about when to dispose of raw meat/fat please? I'm slightly concerned now that my palate is not honed enough to detect something as insipid as a potent nerve toxin...

I mean, how can one minimise contamination with this kind of thing (however rare it may be)?

Most (closed-minded) people frown on the concept of RAF, so there would be some serious frowning going on if I found myself in such a terrible predicament...

Me personally, I've never been a subscriber to the collective unconscious, so the hassle-free zone is a place I don't frequently inhabit! Nevertheless, co-existence does make life a little easier when it's kind rather than brutal...

Please help!

MrBBQ

[van]

  unlesss  well vac. sealed, I always with meat get it out of the plastic and let it stand alone on stainless steel wire racks in fridge.  With a good fridge it will last until it turns to jerky.  Well, it still is good, just dried out.  With fat, again, unless in vac. sealed bag, I get it out of plastic.  But the outside layers will oxidize and I believe is not ideal.  You can scrape and rinse in warm water to get of that outside layer or simply shave off that thin layer, exposing fresh underneath.  Get bones out of plastic quickly, and let air out in fridge, they go off the fastest.     But note, I am not one for high meats.  Others may have different valid ways. 

[MrBBQ]

Nice one van - seems like decent advice...What do you reckon about storing in glass containers? I have these ultra-lite glass bowls with plastic lids, which go nicely in my fridge...I have no dedicated fridge for meat and there's plenty of other stuff in there (all raw stuff like), so I wouldn't want cross contamination with salad vegetables or whatever...

[van]

  I get raw pancreas and liver which is very wet, drippy.  Those I put in glass bowls.  Sometimes I let the liver drain and put on the wire rack too.  I used to have the idea of cross contamination.  But not know.  I just have a shelf for the meat.  Often two shelves.  YOu might simply want to start with a piece of meat on a rack.  Test it out.  I bet you'll find that everything will be fine. 

[goodsamaritan]

Oh, also on the matter of older meat/fat that's been kept in a plastic bag in the fridge...

Why would you want to put meat in a plastic bag in the fridge?  Sounds gross. 

I go to market, I buy fresh meat, they put in a plastic bag for me to carry.
I go home, put meat I will eat in 2 days in the fridge in tupperware, the rest of the meat I put in the freezer in tupperware.

[MrBBQ]

Haha, it's just something that I did because all of my containers were in use for other things...(no time to always go shopping!)

I've just bought some glass containers and my latest batch of meat has been transferred into these. I suppose the advantage of plastic bags is that their shape is flexible, so things like extra large bones can still fit without chopping (I still have to buy a saw!).

Along with the organ meat toxicity issue, I really think this subject matter should be documented in some kind of sticky...

(what says you good moderator(s)?)

MrBBQ

[William]

IIRC all it takes to keep meat is a temperature 5° above ambient, and moving air. It should then dry eventually without rotting, and some prefer the tast of partly dried meat.
If that be true, we don't need refrigerators.

[MrBBQ]

Wouldn't that ultimately result in a loss of anything water-soluble (e.g. vitamin C) then though? This factor of dehydration has always puzzled me - whether the water-soluble stuff gets left behind like for instance, limescale, or whether it migrates somewhere(!)?

I've got an Excalibur for home dehydration, so I might have a go at partially dried meat...Is that your preference?

MrBBQ

[William]

From the experience of those who have eaten nothing but pemmican for years, nothing is lost that we need for meat and fat digestion.

I have an Excalibur too, and thoroughly dry everything to make jerky that I use to make pemmican, but others have written that somewhat dried tastes better than just fresh meat.

[yon yonson]

Oh, also on the matter of older meat/fat that's been kept in a plastic bag in the fridge...What's the risk of botulism?! I read about eskimos contributing to botulism statistics in the USA due to their meat fermentation practices...Quite worrying the effect of this particular nerve toxin...

Does anyone have tips about when to dispose of raw meat/fat please? I'm slightly concerned now that my palate is not honed enough to detect something as insipid as a potent nerve toxin...

I mean, how can one minimise contamination with this kind of thing (however rare it may be)?

Most (closed-minded) people frown on the concept of RAF, so there would be some serious frowning going on if I found myself in such a terrible predicament...

Me personally, I've never been a subscriber to the collective unconscious, so the hassle-free zone is a place I don't frequently inhabit! Nevertheless, co-existence does make life a little easier when it's kind rather than brutal...

Please help!

MrBBQ

I'm also starting to wonder about botulism. anyone know what the risk is with making high meat? does botulism make a certain smell? it just doesn't seem like a good idea to leave meat in an anaerobic environment like in a glass jar... i don't know. maybe i'll just get a big pot full of dirt and bury some meat with leaves around it to make high meat. i think van mentioned wanting to do this too.

[TylerDurden]

I'm also starting to wonder about botulism. anyone know what the risk is with making high meat? does botulism make a certain smell? it just doesn't seem like a good idea to leave meat in an anaerobic environment like in a glass jar... i don't know. maybe i'll just get a big pot full of dirt and bury some meat with leaves around it to make high meat. i think van mentioned wanting to do this too.

You're supposed to aerate the high meat. If you leave it in a jar, open it to the air for a few minutes at least once every 3-4 days(I prefer every day or every 2nd day, myself).