Discussion: At what temperature is food still raw?

[surfsteve]

I've read that food is still considered raw as long as it is not cooked over anywhere between 105 degrees F. and as high as 118 degrees depending on who you ask. Since I got my new sous vide cooker I can control the temperature within increments of half a degree. Raw salmon skin is like eating leather but today's salmon skin at 109.9 degrees F. was tender and chewable.  Though the beef looked raw it was nice not to eat something cold and stiff right out of the refrigerator.

I know I can set beef out in the sun and it will cook much hotter than the 109.9 degrees from my sous vide cooker and there's no doubt in my mind that our paleo ancestors ate meat that was "cooked from the sun"

What temperature do you guys think that food is cooked at and how is it degraded from those temperatures?

On a side note I also feel that food soaked in vinegar or lemon juice seems cooked. What do you guys think about that? I don't know why but I really like the sour taste of it that way. I often wonder if I crave meat soaked in lemon juice as a form of substitution from when meat gets rotten because it develops a similar sour taste. Though in my mind spoiled meat is something to avoid. Maybe it's something I need to get over but I been eating raw for several years and still I have an aversion to spoiled meat...

[TylerDurden]

Actually. most view 104F as the upper limit.37C was the upper limit for raw honey according to AV and some others. If the meat is changed then clearly the meat is being damaged by the heat. Soaking in lemon juice, like with ceviche, is not. the same as cooking. To get used to high meat try leaving fresh raw  meat out for a few extra hours  and extending the duration every so often

[surfsteve]

 I stand corrected. If 104 degrees F. is the upper limit than clearly, unless they lived in northern climates, our paleo ancestors ate cooked food. Even in northern climates the sun can warm food well above that temperature.

I don't know about other animals but human beings can have a fever above 104 and still survive. I've heard that the lethal temperature is 107 degrees.

Do you think that maybe there is a different temperature that is considered cooked for different foods? I live near Death Valley and I've grown tomatoes in the summer when the days have exceeded 120 degrees and the plants are still living just fine.

Are you suggesting that food can be cooked and still be alive?

If any of this is true than clearly the sun was the first way man cooked his food and not by fire. Now you've got me rethinking this whole raw vs cooked foods thing. I'm sure most people are familiar with the saying "It's hot enough to fry eggs on the sidewalk". Prehistoric man did not have sidewalks but surely some unlucky bird must have had one of their eggs fall on to a rock on a hot summer day. If not the bird themselves...

[TylerDurden]

Obviously this is not a harsh and clear limit.The enzymes start becoming denatured after 40C/104F which is why humans die after reaching c. 43C(?), due to enzyme destruction. Some animals and plants and bacteria have special enzymes which survive far higher temperatures, of course. I do not recall the exact point where the heat-created toxins start increasing as only then could the food be considered cooked.Another point:- just because the ambient temperature is above 40C does not mean the food is also at that temperature.For example, a freshly killed wild hare will have lots of raw blood in it which would presumably cool the corpse for a while etc.

[PaganGoy]

This is why one must has to be very careful when buying cheese as you never know how much they heated it.
Always best to make it yourself.

[surfsteve]

I still remember in my youth, one day, hiking in the mountains on a very hot day,for only two or three hours with a previously frozen, unopened package of hot dogs in the top of my back pack and eating an entire hot dog and part of a second one before realizing that it was the hot dogs that were sour and not a problem with my taste buds, before throwing the rest of them out and wondering if I had been poisoned by them. As many of you might have guessed, nothing happened and I never got sick from eating them. Odd thinking back that it was the same logic and reasoning telling me that they couldn't have been spoiled in such a short time that kept me eating them yet also led me to believe that I might get sick from them.

I tend to think that prehistoric man, eating freshly killed animals was not always what happened and that the majority of meat eaten by them came from grubs and insects or was scavenged. Our high stomach acid content suggests that we are well adapted to eating decaying flesh. More so than other faster, stronger animals with sharp teeth and claws.  But then, just because man ate a certain way doesn't mean it was ideal and fresh food that hasn't baked out in the hot sun may indeed be better. I suppose the same argument could be made for eating cooked food. I guess I'm trying to find out where to draw the lines. How about examining the diet and characteristics of people like centenarians that have lived the longest?

So are there a number of us that think that food that has been “baked” by the hot sun is closer to cooked food than raw food? At this point I'm starting to believe that my natural craving for sour foods very well could have something to do with my ancestors eating spoiled meat and fermented vegetables. Right now I've got some five day old ceviche that just a short time ago I'd have thrown away, but will eat with no hesitation so I guess I'm making progress in that direction.

[surfsteve]

For several days I've been "cooking" my food at 108 degrees F. I cooked some steak and salmon yesterday. I ate the steak for lunch but left the salmon in the sous vide cooker till later that evening. I spiced it up with herbs including plenty of lemon that I had dried in my dehydrator and after a couple bites I noticed it had a stinky smell to it. This has never happened at higher temperatures but apparently 108 degrees is low enough to let bacteria grow. As far as I know the meat didn't taste sour but it's hard to tell with all the lemon I put on it. Before this forum I would have been afraid to eat it but I did and it didn't taste that bad and I finished every last bite.

My question is: Does fish taste sour when it becomes fermented? If I hadn't covered it in lemon I would know for sure.

I'm a little concerned because I know high meat is fermented in the refrigerator and this was done at 108 degrees so maybe it has a different taste depending upon what temperature it's fermented at due to the type of bacteria that are encouraged to grow. As soon as I finished eating I downed a glass of betaine HCL water to ensure my stomach acids would be strong enough to help my body  kill whatever bacteria were present...



 

[van]

I think your Sous vide cooker, cooks in a plastic bag without air.  If so, you'll have an increase of anaerobic bacteria types.  But not really sure.  I'd question the use of plastic myself.  I don't trust any plastics, especially when temperatures is involved.

[dariorpl]

I think it's more of a process. The more heat and the longer the exposure, the less raw it is. It may also vary by the type of food.

Paleo people may have ocasionally eaten sunbaked meat, but we have no reason to assume that they would set meat out to bake in the sun on purpose.

It makes more sense to take the carcass in the shade where it's more comfortable on a hot sunny day.

[TylerDurden]

Look at it this way:-  the more heat from the sun the more enzymes are denatured BUT the longer it is left out in the sun the more the bacteria predigest the raw meat making it better/rawer.

[surfsteve]

I agree with Van to be concerned with fermenting food in plastic bags and that it was probably some type of anaerobic bacteria that formed. Now that I think about it I did have a little diarrhea after consuming it but never connected the two in my mind till just now. It probably would have been a lot worse had I not taken the betaine HCL right after eating it. From now on I will try and use my souse vide cooker to only warm the food and not leave it in there for hours and hours, giving it a chance to ferment. I've also been heating up a frying pan and cooking meat only till it is warmed a little in the middle. Most of the time it works but yesterday someone came to the door while I was cooking and the meat was well above body temperature in the middle and parts of it were actually cooked.

I don't like eating cold meat out of the fridge unless it is pickled in lemon juice or vinegar. I thought about warming it in my food dehydrator but am afraid that it will lead me to eating dehydrated meats again and plus it is hard to clean.

I guess the important thing to note is that warming meat to low temperatures such as 108F. leads to bacteria production and needs to be taken into account. From now on I will make an effort not to leave it in much longer than is needed to achieve the desired temperature.

I wonder if maybe warming the meat in a dehydrator and using plastic or wax paper underneath it would be a good idea. I think I'll put some wax paper on my store list and give it a try.

I really like preparing raw meat in a salad, ceviche style or as a tartare, which is pretty much the same thing, only with less vegetables; but confess I need a change now and then. Plus simply warming it is a little more paleo style, simulating a fresh kill; though that is notas  high on my list of priorities as it appears to be to most people on this forum.

 

[van]

how about doing what some of us do,,  take your portion out of the fridge 2-4 hours ahead of time. Tastes best that way to me.  Same with fat.

[birdy]

What do you think about partially cooked/undercooked meat, like rare steaks? Im still starting out with the raw meats and find it hard to eat completely raw. Though adding enough spices to it would make that more achievable for me I guess. Just don't like eating it completely "naked" and cold. Last time I tried raw chicken, I lightly heated it in the pan with some butter and spices until it got white on the outside but was still completely pink inside.

also, what about adding spices in general? i like adding lots of them. But I think I heard somewhere that strong spices with antibacterial properties like ginger or garlic  also kill the beneficial bacteria of the raw meat?

[surfsteve]

I been cooking my meat that way for years. I still never developed a taste for completely raw though. I use spices but stopped using pepper as it is a night shade.