A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?

[norawnofun]

Is it a good idea that somebody does a colonic like you did, is it good to do an enema like many others do? Did this idea start come from AV? Not really, and yes, it might be good to feed your E. coli to relieve your constipation. Because if you have severe constipation then you will do ANYTHING to relieve it, especially if you do not want to take meds. It´s obviously not a permanent solution, but sometimes an idea that somebody gives you, regardless if its coming from AV or from anybody on this forum, or anybody that claims to know something about health, can help. And as far as I read, there are people on this forum that had great benefits with his suggestions, some had not. His suggestion of sourdough bread fucked my gut up. Is that a reason for me why should disregard anything he said? No. But again, it´s not about blindly following somebody´s advice, its taking any information that you get from anybody that has some kind of experience, and make up your own mind. And I don´t really care how much money he made from people or how many people think his suggestions are BS. And yes, many people search for answers, and if he is the one that MIGHT provide one then why take that away from them? I mean if you are stupid enough to follow everything that anybody says blindly, then you obviously end up in trouble. So yes, thinking with our own minds, but at the same time not closing the eyes due to prejustices towards others that we disagree with or dislike.

[van]

like I said there's a balance.   My opinion of AV again is,, he created stories and concoctions to satisfy the needs and wants of a certain type of client.  Maybe we can leave it at that. 

[sabertooth]

Balance can be difficult to find, especially when inundated with conflicted information. The human nature under the influence of artificial environmental conditioning, has become so detached from being able to fully trust instinct, and so we rely heavily on intelligence to generate creative solutions to the problems that arise with the severance from nature. This increasing reliance upon information creates a vicious circle which has taken us so far from our evolutionary environment, that finding a balance between the instinct and intellect becomes an impossible feat.

Dairy simply never worked well for me, but being exposed to AV and many others lead me to once believe that if only I adopted the correct protocols and followed the prescriptions religiously then I could provoke proper adaption. Eventually I got the message that dairy just didn't work well for me personally, and life is much better without it.

There are just too many blind spots in the logic behind Dairy consumption persistence adaptations. The conditions which had to occur in order for humans to form a balanced adaption to heavy dairy consumption, is for the most part too extreme to reproduce in the modern era. Imagine nearly starved pastoral herds peoples, braving the extreme conditions of life on the frontier. During certain seasons they would be ravenous for anything which would allow them to simply survive to the next season. Learning to utilize dairy, fermenting it, making cheeses, butter, gave people an advantage...but it must of taken countless generations to adapt.... living on the brink of imbalance...consuming large amounts of rotten milk, having the infants nursed by mothers also consuming copious amounts of dairy throughout her life. Transgenerationally passed down antibodies and very early inoculation with lacto-friendly microcosms allowed for a delicate balance form.

But this balance was extremely precarious from the very beginning, and once the mother to offspring cycle was broken...this prenatal and postnatal dairy tolerance inoculations through prolonged breast milk feeding, and weaning directly to fermented dairy...then this balance was lost. Some people who haven't been to harshly effected by the modern afflictions may still have remnants of this dairy digestion persistence, but many other are totally intolerant and it would be foolish for those people to continue to pursue dairy based dietary protocols.

My mother was formula fed, I was only breast fed for 4 month, I was given multiple antibiotics as a baby, and drank pasteurized milk for my entire childhood until i finally realized it was actually behind many of my health issues. Ive learned to accept this fact and have moved on to seeking out foods which can heal and nourish that are not so troublesome to the system. Perhaps if I had no other choice like our ancient ancestors I could force myself into some haphazard tolerance to dairy and ignore the negative instinctive signalling for long enough to redevelop the kind of mutations which would reintroduce dairy digestive resistance into the modern gene pool...but as of now that just seems counter intuitive to how i wish to spend my life......After a short time of experiencing mucous stools, constipation, feeling horribly, or whatever other symptoms of dairy woes, I would advise people reconsider dairy elimination.

Perhaps this may be extreme, but the first symptoms of intolerance to any-food, will cause me to to pause and weigh out the pros and cons, using both instinct and intellect, to decide what next to do. Its gotten to the point where I will throw out an entire animal if after a few days it doesn't suit me, even if there isn't anything visibly wrong with it.

[norawnofun]

@Van I got my probiotics now and wanna do this experiment. I will take liquid whey that I got from making my own cheese, pour the powdered strains in (how many pills would you suggest for that pint?) and then leave it in the oven on roughly 100F to multiply for a day. Do I need to close the glass jar off, meaning it needs to be anaerobic for them to multiply?

You also said that you did raw joghurt. I´d like to do that as well. Same principle but just with milk? I don´t have something similar to a joghurt maker, so I guess the oven would work as much? Thanks

[van]

So here's where I don't know..   Your whey already has tons of bacteria,, which will compete with the prob. that you add.  I would suggest that you boil it to start with a sterile environment.    And I am assuming that your whey hasn't already gone acidic. If it has, most of the lactose will have turned into lactic acid and not feed your prob.
   The powdered whey I bought had not gone acidic before drying/pasturizing.    You can experiment.  Maybe with 500 mls. you could add ten capsules.  Being that you might place that much in your colon.   Get a thermometer and make sure it doesn't go over body temp.  And oven with a light in it or a small heating pad, with some practice you can adjust the temp. by slightly opening the door of the oven, or even use a box, or large cooler, or cupboard.  But you want to hover around body temp. because that is where the bacteria you want to grow in your color will multiply the fastest and outcompete others.
 Making yogurt out of raw milk is tricky due to the already present bacteria in milk.  I would probably suggest going the kefir route there, and making sure you have lots of K. grains to efficiently culture the milk before competing bacteria can also grow.  In both the colon solution and kefir stop the culturing process as it begins to go acidic by taste.  Waiting too long and the bacteria ( and yeasts in kefir ) will expire due to lack of food/available lactose and too high of acidity.
   

[norawnofun]

To get the whey I always let the goat milk curdle for 2-3 days outside on around 70-75 F, strain it and put it in the fridge. The recent batch I made is there since approx 5-7 days. I just tasted it and its not sour at all, so I guess I´ll use that. And I´ll boil it as u said to kill the bacteria so it doesnt compete with the probiotics. Regarding the kefir I always used to wait around a day until the whey separated properly, then mixed it to get one consistency again, and waited another day until it was more acidic. I didn´t know that it´s better to not let it turn too acidic, was always under the impression the more acidic it is the more beneficial. thanks.

And the whey with prob has to be anaerobic in order for the bacteria to multiply efficiently correct?

[van]

the acidity is the taste of the excrement of the bacteria.   I found when I was heavily into kefir, I would mix 50 /50 kefir with milk.  the result was a very creamy delicious taste.  I think too much lactic acid is a burden on the body.

[madnomad]

I never heat my raw whey..I also never seem to have stomach upsets when I am regularly drinking naturally fermented whey. I often mix the raw whey with raw curds to make a sort of Natural yogurt/kefir substitute but then the curds run out and I just keep drinking the whey till it's gone. I have often wondered what part genetics plays with dairy although I rarely drink fresh milk and mostly drink clabber, curds and whey and fermented cream.

I'm half Irish and prior to the potato, the Irish diet was characterised by "milky": whey, curds, cream and butter, "Bonne clabber", etc for thousands of years. Fermented dairy was a staple food for such a long span of time in Ireland so I do feel it is an ancestral food that fits well with my genetics. Whether it works for others I can't speculate but I do think genetics most likely plays a part regarding tolerance.

[van]

the instructions to heat the whey was only to have a sterile culture medium to innoculate human strains of probiotics. Otherwise I would never suggest heating raw whey.  hope that helps.

[norawnofun]

You said the production of raw joghurt is tricky, but I assume you have tried it and succeeded. Mind sharing how?

[van]

Okay, when I was in touch with a company who produced various probiotics ( the president made his fortune by creating and patenting a strain that was utilized in yogurts all throughout south korea to combat a certain bacteria that caused stomach ulcers and eventually stomach cancer ) I was able to buy one kilo containers of incredibly high count single strains.  Mostly bifida bacteria types.  I bought it at wholesale prices so that I was able to use quite large amounts to make yogurts. The numbers of bacteria were billions of times higher than you could get out of a capsule.  I would use a tablespoon at a time.    But now thinking about it, I could have, you could,,  pasteurize your whey, and then innoculate it to just acid levels and then use that to make your yogurt.  You could start with a relatively low amount of inoculant. Do the math, bacteria can double every ten minutes...With super high counts you basically overwhelm the competing bacteria. 

[norawnofun]

Ok, and what temperature is essential so the bacteria can multiply? You mentioned body temperature, what if I cannot achieve that in my oven. Would the bacteria not multiply at all or would they just multiply at a much lower rate if its below let´s say 37 C?

[van]

It's just a matter of what wattage your light bulb is.  Or as mentioned get a carboard box or  cooler.   When I used my medium sized cooler, I would place the glass liter full of to be yogurt and then on the other side a two liter glass bottle with lid of very warm water.  It heated the cooler nicely.  Just go to the store and get an easy to read thermometer.   You'll have better success having temps closer to the body temp.

[norawnofun]

@van how often did you do the probiotic implantation? Was once enough for you?

[van]

hard to remember exactly, but maybe three times.   Not that I needed three times,, who knows, but each time I perfected the culture and implantation method so felt warranted to give it another go.   

   For the most part, I wasn't eating meat then, just living off my goats' milk she gave.   Now with a carnivore diet, it wouldn't make sense to attempt as I have zero food for those bacteria to survive on in my colon.   

[norawnofun]

Do you have any suggestion how to be able to consume butter again? I´d like to eat it again since it´s high in fat and the other things are a bit costly. I can digest milk and cheese from various animals without issues, clabbered milk is the best, also no or little problems with lard, goose fat and tallow, all high in saturated fats, but grassfed/organic butter, raw or pasteurized is hard on me. I don´t really get it.

[van]

same here, even with the best butter from early summer months..  I have always suspected that since butter comes from spinning the cream from milk and then the cream is 'churned',, both processes introducing copious amounts of air during the processes, that possibly there's some degree of oxidation that I don't get along with. 

  then there's also proteins that remain with butter, hence why some clarify butter into ghee. 

[madnomad]

Are you guys unable to digest fermented raw butter and raw cultured cream? When I have made clabbered milk I leave the cream with it to ferment along with the curds and whey and then spoon it off after a few days of fermentation before the curds have fully separated. I find it quite easy to digest and usually don't bother to make it into butter but just eat as is and store in the fridge in a glass jar. I would try making fermented butter/cream yourself as well rather than buying something pre-made and see if that digests better.

[norawnofun]

Your point regarding oxidation is interesting. It might be fine if its eaten super fresh, but I never tried that. Initially I had thought it might be the A1 cow strains responsible, but I have almost the same issue with goat butter (but pasteurized). Ghee is also digested badly for me. Plus its produced in higher heat, which I don´t like too much. I am thinking now that I could try and force my body to digest it, by eating it more often. That worked with meat. As when I started eating meats again after a plant based diet I had a hard time digesting red meats, now it´s pretty ok. So maybe if you eat something that does not do you too well more often, your body learns how to adapt and digest it.

@madnomad I find raw cultured cream to be the ultimate food. Whole clabbered milk or clabbered cheese does not satisfy me as much, but soured cream is godly. I could eat it none stop, and its also a great digestion aid. I also think that it calms me down, AV praised raw cream a lot for it´s nerve calming effects. He might have been right about that. And your idea is a good one. Cultured butter could give you the strains I need to digest butter again. Worth a try.

[van]

wasn't suggesting to use ghee.  Just mentioning it for why people go to the degree of processing it.   

[FRANCIS HOWARD BOND]

Perhaps I was privileged by being brought up on Full Cream Jersey A 2 Milk and enjoying every thick creamy drop.    I continued with this till at least 1998 when it became difficult to obtain, and the local dairy closed.    Since on Full Cream more ordinary A 1 milk from Frisian and similar cows.   Noticed the difference and poor keeping qualities.    Developed slight nasal allergy causing sneezing after drinking.    Same with milk chocolate!?    A 1 Green top milk keeps better than A 1 Blue top, but does not have much taste.   Would prefer Jersey Milk if I could still get it?

[norawnofun]

@van How did you manage to steer away from dairy? I´d like to try it but it seems very hard.

[van]

 I became so dependant on it that I simply made a choice.     I read one of your last posts where you wrote ( think it was you ) that you have  a liter with each meal.  that seems like a lot to consume when eating meat.  As in, I would Guess, that the meat would simply swim in all that milk and not fully digest.  You might want to confirm it really is working for you,  but then maybe if it's really clabored it would work.     My guess is that you're consuming that much to keep weight on?

[norawnofun]

When I am abroad I have a liter of cow with each meal, 2-3 times a day, because I have access to it and its cheap.. When I am at home I have a big glass of goat with every meal, 2-3 times a day. There is 1 main reasons why I consume so much dairy, because it aids digestion, clabbered is best. The higher fat content the better, so I prefer cow than goat. But at home I can´t get organic cow, so I stick to the watery goat. Also the goat is super expensive and sourcing, regardless of what type of raw dairy is mostly a pain in the a. Especially if you are out and about. Meat u get everywhere. And if I don´t get raw, I need to stick to pasteurized, which messes up my teeth. Goat doesnt really have the ability to increase my weight, but cow does. So yes, another reason why I consume dairy is because I can gain weight. And as you said, dependancy is a big problem.

The ideal case is that I can eat more fatty cuts of meat, but the problem is I can´t digest them yet, as my stomach acid is still not strong enough, plus I need a ratio of about 60 fat to 40 protein or more, otherwise digestion is bad. Ideally I would eat cheap fatty cuts, or osso buco which has the bone marrow included, together with some lard or tallow. Raw fat is too hard to digest and where I live there are no healthy animals around. So the only way would be the osso and the fatty cuts, or homemade bacon in extra fat. I´d like to phase out dairy a bit, by eating less dairy but with higher fat content, like butter.

How did you achieve turning away from dairy and how did your body take it? You just stopped all of a sudden? And how was your digestion? Sabertooth said to go on a 2 day water fast to possibly reset the microbiome. Did you do something like that?

[van]

I went from dairy to 80/10, which ruined my health.  Luckily I read on the internet how some, if not many, will continue with a believed in way of eating even to the point of ruining their health.  I took that expression to heart.  I then switched to using fat as fuel and haven't really eaten much fruit at all now for many years.  that first weekend, all I could do is lay on the couch with little ability to utilize fat.  And then it just got easier...

   I have to admit I probably couldn't live this way unless I had a source of non-rancid grass fed yummy fat and marrow.   So I can sympathize with you there. 
 
   My Guess is that all this milk in combination with meat isn't helping your body to learn how to switch to fat as a fuel.  Same as if I continued to eat fruit.  the sugar kicks you out of being a fat burner.    That's about all I can offer.