A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?

[Gatsuri]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has experience having bad symptoms (not detox but just negative) from A1 dairy but are completely fine with A2 dairy ?
From my experience (raw) dairy gives me tendency for harder stools, wondering if the A2 would make any difference, if not I am going to avoid all types of dairy.

It seems strange to me how raw dairy would cause problems being from European descent as I would think our ancestors would have consumed dairy regularly.

[TylerDurden]

I experimented with this A1/A2 nonsense and found it dead wrong. 5% of people with European descent are estimated at having lactose-intolerance. There is also casein-intolerance and galactose-intolerance. Oh, and a long length of time on a diet does NOT at all imply an adaptation to it at all. Pandas have been eating bamboos for 5 million years but they still are designed to be primarily carnivorous.

[Gatsuri]

Yeah I see, probably not even worth trying for myself. Those that can handle dairy are lucky, adds some nice variety..

[norawnofun]

Always make up ur own mind when it comes to certain foods. What´s not good for others might be beneficial for u. From my own perspective I could see a big difference between A1 and A2. I drank around a liter of A1 Holstein/Friesian milk which were commercial fed and I drank a lot more of Jersey Cows which are supposed to have a higher A2 trait. I had no issues with the Jerseys, also commercial fed, but I had an immediate negative response to the Holstein/Friesian, even though the Friesian were fed MUCH more pasture than the Jerseys (the Jerseys were ONLY fed with GMO pellets which I found out after seeing the feed label by coincidence some months later).

I am from european descent and I did a lot of research when it comes to A1/A2, and it´s far from a 'hoax'. If you research more about this you will understand. Certainly you might be one of these few people which cannot digest any dairy at all, but that can be doubtful. Do you know what their feed is, especially in winter, do you know what treatment the cows get when being ill, do you know the living conditions of the cows, do you know if they still have horns, do you know what trait they have? The only way to get proper raw milk is to speak to the farmer, inspect the animals, see the living conditions, see if they are certified organic, check for the horns and taste a bit of the milk. Most commercial dairy cows nowadays are of A1 descent. However, in certain countries there are still a lot of indigenous breeds, such as the Pinzgauer or Fleckvieh in Austria or the Modicana in Sicily, and I did not have any issues beside the raw butter, which is most probably due to the high saturated fat content. So I would say it also depends where you live and what cattle they use. Some countries use a lot of the shitty A1 breeds which can give you problems, regardless if raw or not.

Therefore, if you want raw milk there are certains things to consider. 1. Always opt for Organic and pasture. 2. Try Goat or Sheep milk if you can´t handle cows milk 3. Go for indigenous breeds rather than commercial cattle. It can be hard to find a farmer which does not have A1 cows, but they exist. So only if you have checked ALL these things, and you still have bad symptoms (not related to detox), only then you can clearly verify that any kind of mammalian milk, except mothers milk, is not good for you, regardless what anybody says. If milk would be so harmful and shitty, it would have not been drank for thousands of years by so many ancient cultures and tribes. So, whatever is in commercial and even raw milk nowadays, is NOT what we are supposed to indigest to heal certain conditions. And raw milk can heal, has nothing to do with just being a variety or a 'nice' addition to your diet, it can help you a lot, or it can harm you if you get the wrong type of milk, or if you are in these apparently 5 percent. But people nowadays just don´t grasp the true meaning of proper raw milk. As with many other things. And that truly pisses me off. It´s like a Vegan saying Animal Products make you sick and give you cancer, even though they have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.

[Gatsuri]

It's not that I don't want to experiment further but the symptoms are way too bad digestion wise with the A1 raw milk/ raw cheese/ and even raw butter I am finding, those things just make my stools hard as rock. And these things were already difficult to find organic and raw. Probably goat dairy would be easiest to find but like I said the risk of bad symptoms would just give me stress while I am already feeling the best I have ever felt on my current diet without dairy. I do recognize of course that dairy has a lot of good nutrition if you are able to digest that stuff.

[norawnofun]

In that case, if you can´t find a proper source leave it out. No point of eating someting that makes you feel bad. If you can´t get the real deal don´t touch it, otherwise it can aggregate your symptoms.

[Gatsuri]

Yeah, still interested in reading about the A1/A2 though, 'devil in the milk' seems to be a book that discusses it which I might check out

I don't think 'lactose intolerance' can be used as an argument though for raw milk, from what I understand the enzyme lactase should digest it for you in raw milk.

[van]

not correct regarding the lactase digesting it for you.  Sufficient amounts of lactase are produced in the large intestine by lactose feeding bacteria there creating lactase, which is then shuttled to the liver to then aid in digestion in the stomach and small intestine.  I wouldn't swear to this, but have read it from some what of an authority, and not AV. 
  Also if disciplined, one can build up those lactose digesting bacteria over time.  Supposedly we all have some small amount that can be induced to multiply.  But this to me is questionable due to the use of antibiotics.  However, one can repopulate the large intestine with HUMAN strains of probiotics and then grow their populations over time by regular small and increasing amounts of 'milk food'. 
   Culturing HUMAN stains of probiotics outside the body grown on whey and then rectally implanting a pint of the solution will provide the greatest chance of creating a living growing strain in the large bowel.   This I did several times when I had my own goats and lived primarily on their milk.

[Gatsuri]

Hmmm well raw (animal) foods digest better due to the enzymes not being destroyed so I don't see why it would not apply to milk ?

I might have found a goat farm 30 mins ride, if I decide to try the raw goat milk I will update how it went

Checked some forums whereby mothers had success giving their kids A2 goat milk for example for fixing the constipation in their toddlers (when they were on cow milk) so there are for sure success stories

[norawnofun]

@van

This is very interesting. Can you please briefly explain how you can culture human strains of probiotics?  Also, what whey do you use? Should it be live whey from lets say kefir or would store bought powdered whey work as well? And to implant the solution of a pint, you use an enema, or how do you insert it? Suppositories would be too small unless you use many?

[van]

sure.  You want to make sure the probiotics you buy are human strains,, those that naturally attach and reproduce within the human colon.   Then yes, dried whey, not whey powder, for that is lactose removed,  with added water and probiotic kept at 100 f will double the count of bacteria every 10 to 20 minutes once they start reproducing.  In a capsule they are dormant, but when exposed to the correct lactose medium and warmth they will begin to multiply.  You can do the math, doubling every 20 minutes for a day of culturing ( you to use/stop culturing before it turns very acidic)  and the numbers are HUGE, and they're living, and they don't have to pass through the acid stomach and alkaline small intestine.    The trick is also to feed them from the top, meaning orally either with whey powder or milk or whey from making cheese.  If kefir whey is used make sure it hasn't cultured too long for the lactose then would have been converted to lactic acid and thus not be a sugar form the bacteria need.  An enema bag can be used.

[Gatsuri]

Update experimentation with raw goat milk: I did have my hopes up and I'm sure the A2 can make the difference for a lot of people and it is worth trying but for me personally I should stay away from dairy.

[van]

I could only drink goat milk when my goats were off grain,, well, I sprouted their grain seven days and that worked fine.  they only got grain while being milked.  Most goats in milk production get grain like cows to increase milk production.   I can't emphasize enough how valuable or important it is that goats and cows only eat green grasses, ( and a host of other plants for goats)  if you want to drink their milk.

[FRANCIS HOWARD BOND]

Can anyone explain what categories A1 and A2 stand for?    Sorry but I have not heard of these.

[norawnofun]

@Francis. https://www.authoritydiet.com/a1-vs-a2-cows-milk-what-difference-benefits-nutrition/ and https://keithwoodford.wordpress.com/ Keith Woodford is the Guy that wrote the Book "Devil in the Milk: Illness, Health and Politics : A1 and A2 Milk". He has a own section on the right top side regarding A1 and A2.

@van thanks for the explanation. You initially said to implant them rectally, then you mention orally. So should it be both ways? And if for example somebody would be totally lactose intolerant and "allergic" to dairy, with this method you could possibly digest dairy again? I assume you did that because you could not digest the milk from your goats?

[van]

 As for orally, you can begin to feed the bacteria present in the bowel by ingesting lactose/whey/milk by increasingly small amounts so that lactase is produced in the bowel and then shuttled to the stomach to digest lactose in milk.   
   about 27 years ago I had some sort of bowel irritation.   I went to a colon therapist who after doing a colonic,  then implanted human strains of probiotic and whey.  I took his method to the next step and cultured the same bacteria and whey, thus spawning billions and billions of more bacteria than simply inserting the raw ingredients.  It healed my bowel lining quite well.  It was not long after I bought my first two goats, and continued my experiments with kefirs of various origins and making raw yogurts with certain strains of human probiotics.  It became my hobby or passion for some time.
  I doubt I have any if very little of those strains living in my colon now, as I for some years enjoy a carnivorous diet devoid of any sugars which are needed to sustain those sugar based bacteria implanted for lactose consumption.

[norawnofun]

I did some research regarding the Human strain probiotics that you mentioned and things are pretty vague and blurred there. It´s a bit hard to focus on that word since it doesn´t not seem to have much of a meaning nowadays.

https://www.thefinchleyclinic.com/shop/human-strain-probiotics-important-b-544.html
https://www.optibacprobiotics.co.uk/learning-lab/blog/what-are-human-strains
https://www.crohns.net/blog/post/what-are-human-strain-probiotics

So when you search for human strains probiotics its hard to verify if they are the real deal. Quite some have additives that do not seem to be of best quality. I think its important to get one that a) has as little additives as possible b) have a lot of different type of strains c) as you mentioned already, multiplying them and making them “stick” in your gut for longer. I will do what you suggested and I am focusing on 2 probiotic brands. One has 10 strains, the other one 20. Since it´s hard to get the 20 I try the 10 first. It seems that dairy always helps me to digest food better, so I am thinking that it´s the bacteria of raw dairy that does that. I tried eating with pasteurized cheese and digestion was bad. So it seems that I have a very low bacterial count in my gut and raw dairy or joghurt helps due to the bacteria present.

But I do still have 3 questions regarding your method. 1.You mentioned to culture them in dried whey, would normal non-dried whey from fresh kefir work as well (not too long fermented as u said), and would normal raw milk work as good? Or did you not mention raw milk as this would be hard to administer via enema as it would be too thick. 2. Then that pint of solution you implant via enema, how long do you retain it? Because usually after a couple of minutes you need to flush it out, which would make the whole thing pointless. So how long do you need to retain it in order for the strains to attach to the gut lining well enough? And any special position used? 3. Then after you have done that you feed them with increasingly small amounts. How small and why small? Can´t you just drink a pint or a liter of milk to be sure they are fed enough and thrive? Sorry about all the questions but I wanna do this the correct way.

[van]

yes, a lot of variables.. I would stick with powdered whey.  Kefir liquid is going to have their own bacteria, good or bad, I don't know.   Often half of kefir is yeast.  More yeast than bacteria when cultured at temps closer to room temp or below, more bacteria when cultured at body temp.     I wouldn't use milk, that's me, too much protein, fat, etc that's not been digested.  The bacteria feed on lactose.   Try eight ounces first.  Try to hold it in as long as you can.  Maybe watch a movie lying down and forget about it.  I did it in a bathtub full of water, believing that it put less strain due to floating.. Who knows though.  I also tried to massage it up and around.    the starting out with a little at a time is when you're just trying to increase populations orally and not in addition to rectally.   So simply experiment for yourself and see what works best.   
    My experiences were many years ago when I had goats and lived off of their milk.  I no longer do dairy, so I really can't get too excited about milk again. Personally, I wouldn't ingest milk unless I knew the herd and knew they weren't eating grain, and had lots of green grass to produce milk from.
    the other thing about dairy that no one talks about,,, watch a commercial milk operation.  Watch how they wash the teats just before placing the vacuum apparatus on them.  That washing liquid is an antibacterial solution which obviously gets in the milk.  I think that dairy farmers don't care too much about how much of that gets in their milk because it keeps the bacterial load down.   Every so often they have to have their milk tested for certain bacterial counts by the state, to be able to sell it. 
    When my daughter was young, and the mother fought me about providing our daughter raw goat milk from my own goats, I thought I would have it tested to show her the results to keep her from complaining to the 'authorities'.    The tests all came back with bacterial loads higher than the industry allowed standard.  And these were some very healthy well grass and plant fed goats..

[norawnofun]

You said you would stick to powerdered whey, but initially you said dried whey? Or was it just a typo? I don´t know the difference between the powdered and dried whey, probably the same? So when I get my probiotics I´ll put put them in the whey solution of warm water and off the journey goes 

And what you said about the vaccum is interesting. Next time I buy organic raw milk from a farmer I´ll ask regarding that. It also makes me wonder how the organic certification is done then. Because if it has a high bacterial load (i assume you meant negative), then what are the parameters they test the organic milk for? Or maybe there is an "organic" antibacterial solutions as well? That reminds me of AV, mentioning that one of the best ways to get raw milk is from Amish farmers, probably because they don´t use any machinery or anything artificial.

Then there might be other 2 ways to make digestion easier and add bacteria, especially e-coli. One of them was explained by AV in https://soundcloud.com/oneradionetwork/062311_vonderplanitz_aajonus_primal_diet_two I did a transcript of that, at least of the things that I understood correctly.  and * stands for things I didn´t catch at all.

True constipation is block in intestines. Most people when they change to a healthy diet, when they altered from a vegan or vegetarian diet they are nutrient starved. Then, all of a sudden the body gets a lot nutrients and tries to absorb every bit of it, and therefore it will be very dry. Also the e-coli has been starved, and when it gets the fats in the later stage of digestion, the preferable ones, the more fresh ones they never see or gaft? So they will hold on the fecal matter trying to break everything down and digest it. That’s not true constipation, but its uncomfortable. Take 3 tbl of butter, coconut cream and dairy cream and quarter teaspoon of honey. Mix together in a 4 ounce jelly jar. Do this before u go to bed. Heat with bowl of hot water (that doesn’t burn hand). That will bring it to body temperature (liquidish) in about 3-4 minutes. Take syringe and put it up your ass (suppository). Not to be moved*. Put face down on knees, roll your stomach like a belly dancer and get it to move up to decending colon. Then lie on right side, life left leg and roll ur stomach like a belly dancer again and get it to move across the transverse colon down to the ascending colon. Then u´ll feed ecoli directly with very fresh fats so they wont hold on to that fecal matter. Thin ppl or starving, vegan or vegetarian diet for a long time, they need to do that every 2-3 days or other people may need to do it only once a week or once a month. If u put something cold in ass ur body wants to flush it out. It gets rid of depression too

then the 2nd one is this:

ecoli helps brain functions, university of Toronto dissolved brain tumours with ecoli in 2-5 days* peoples cancer reverse when eating fecal matter, little amount, get them from amish farmers and start eating when tumours don’t get remove otherwise. * certain types of salmonella eat cancer* we are in trouble because we are so clean

So you can either eat fecal matter yourself, which is the ultimate hardcore, or nowadays doctors do Fecal Transplantation https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gastroenterology_hepatology/clinical_services/advanced_endoscopy/fecal_transplantation.html That might be the best way to get the bacteria that you need, except the one that you mentioned and maybe the first method of AV. I think I stick to urs and high meat for now 

[van]

dried, powdered, the same,, as it comes from making cheese, when the whey separates.
   I don't give much credence to much of what AV says.  Sorry.   And a lot of what I am not a fan of is that he keeps people in their head with this potion and this concept. That's how he made his money.

[PaganGoy]

I usually only ever see ajanous make dietary recommendations based on different dietary ratios or synergistic alkaline combinations to increase enzyme function.  Ajanous will occasionally recommend a specific food like cabbage juice for certain digestion issues for example because of its phyto chemical effect I believe but I would hardly call that a "potion" or money making scheme just personal knowledge and understanding.

[van]

He made his money off of consultations where he had his clients follow all sorts of detailed dietary regimes.   Thus he had many cures for all the many ailments his clients came to him with.  He knew people want something to believe in or cure them.   Have you ever heard Eckart Tolle speak about how when people go to meditation retreats they want, expect, feel as though they got something of value 'when they come home with the Seven Truths...."   as opposed to having been given the simple instruction to notice or observe and see what you learn from that? 

   People love information, it makes them feel like they have control over their situation, what ever it is.  I'm no different.  I simply find it interesting when I see it being used, or overused.

[sabertooth]

Information is often a makeshift crutch the mind uses to find ones way after the instinct has been lost.

[norawnofun]

I don´t take everything that AV said serious. But still, he was one of the few people that put some kind of information out there where others did not. So instead of judging and taking everything at face value, you can still take that provided information, analyse or test it yourself, and then make up your own mind if it´s useful or not. Just the fact that it makes you think further, is important to give you leads that you might need for your own process thinking. So even if you think what he said is useless, for somebody else it might be the quite the opposite. Therefore I think it´s good that people should still mention his ideas. And I don´t know many people that had this out of the box thinking like him. If there are please mention them. I think the reason why so many people quote AV on this forum is simply the fact that they don´t know anybody similar to him. And of course you can overuse information, but that´s when you blindly follow somebody´s advise, like following a guru. Then ur in trouble.

[van]

So let me ask you, regarding the last point made here on his suggestion.. do you think for this 'somebody else', that if he or she has constipation, do you think it's a good idea for them to shove his concoction up their butt to feed their E Coli to relieve their constipation?   And let's just say they do this, and then they poop.  What do you think they are going to do the next time they miss their morning movement?    ( and by shoving his concoction up your butt, you will probably poop, as you will poop with shoving anything up your butt). 
    My point again, he offers those looking for an answer to quelch their churning mind's need to know.  You call this thinking further.  I call it feeding the minds incessant need to latch on.     
    Naturaly there is balance here, as we all need to think with out minds.