What if anything, might I be lacking, on a carnivore diet?

[surfsteve]

Just under a month ago I started experimenting with a raw carnivore diet.

What has started out as an experiment might just be turning into a lifestyle.

I'm starting this thread in an attempt to find out what specifically I might be lacking in my diet and what most other people who try it also might be lacking. I'm looking for suggestions of what (if anything,) might be a good idea to add to one's diet, that isn't carnivore, in order to make it more healthy.

As a rule meat has less than what most people require of a lot of minerals and some vitamins. Specifically vitamin C, magnesium and potassium come to mind.

Since I've tried carnivore my back aches have significantly diminished along with other aches and pains. My mood has been the biggest improvement. I've had more energy and have been requiring less sleep. On the down side I've noticed a cramp in my hamstrings and an ache in my heel that have developed on the same side that my back (in the kidney area) was hurting on, and it hasn't gone away. If anything it's gotten slightly worse. I've been analyzing my diet and I think maybe it could be caused from a lack of magnesium and potassium. I also thought I was lacking in vitamin C but have recently found out that sweetbreads, AKA thymus gland, contain plenty of vitamin C. In fact 6.2 ounces of beef thymus contains 100.75 percent of the recommended daily allowance of vitamin C. I eat between 4 and 12 ounces a day of the stuff so I'm in the clear when it comes to vitamin C.

This evening I added some additional potassium and magnesium to my salt but I've been adding less and less salt to my food lately finding I don't crave it as much as I used to since I first started going carnivore. I also totally quit all spices. I used to use a terrific amount of spices on my food but found it to be quite a bit easier than I expected it to be to quit them. (When I first went carnivore I used way more salt to make up for the lack of spices but the craving only lasted a couple of days) The only exception to carnivore I've been doing is one or two tablespoons of wheatgrass juice powder daily. I thought this might be enough minerals but like meat, wheatgrass is also not supplying me with enough potassium or magnesium, (or vitamin C), at least according to the recommended daily allowance; so I'm up in the middle of the night writing this post and adding some of my salt mixture to a glass of water. Maybe the extra potassium and magnesium will do the trick!

Is it possible I'm still going through an adjustment phase? Another thing that comes to mind is that I'm not strictly using grass fed which would be nearly impossible at my location, not to mention the cost would break me. Who here has tried carnivore and what were (or are,) your results?

[TylerDurden]

Raw meat contains vitamin C.

[van]

wouldn't think of not using grass-fed only.  Your choice. But I'd take a paper route to supplement income if I  had to.   In my opinion, you're overeating, if you're still eating five pounds of meat a day. Even Shawn Baker who is huge and works out like a fiend, eats around four pounds. And most in this field think he overeats.     Too often we think more is better.  But how about eating as little as possible, ensuring that everything you put in your mouth is utilized completely.    Some think that excess protein cause mineral imbalances, not to mention stress on the body.   Liver, which I know you do in copious amounts solves my cramping.    But taken in excess, or more than the body needs and wants, I have no idea as to the resultant.  Again, by blending your foods, you will never know how much in the moment your body is desiring.   That's why I continually point out here, that to learn to listen to your body, to let it tell you what it needs as opposed to you telling it what you think it needs, one should take a bit at a time of fresh (unfrozen) meat/food at a time and see if you do indeed want another.

[surfsteve]

Raw meat contains vitamin C.

Yes but very little. I spent 20 minutes preparing a post but the system ate it when Van cross posted somehow. According to the charts I was going to post which were a breakdown of the meats I eat, beef steak and muscle meat contains zero percent, which means less than a half a percent of the RDA of vitamin C. Like I said in my post before, beef thymus contains the most vitamin C. Lucky for me I eat a ton of it. The reason I do it, which is unproven is because I suspect eating thymus will keep me young because only young animals have a large thymus. If I recall correctly, in humans the thymus is the largest around the age of 5 and then starts shrinking. By age 50 it is only 10% of the size it was.

As meats go Salmon is also very high in vitamin C. A single serving of salmon comes in at 12% RDA. This was the second highest meat source I could find. It stacks up poorly against the thymus gland though, (AKA sweetbreads.)

[surfsteve]

wouldn't think of not using grass-fed only.  Your choice. But I'd take a paper route to supplement income if I  had to.   In my opinion, you're overeating, if you're still eating five pounds of meat a day. Even Shawn Baker who is huge and works out like a fiend, eats around four pounds. And most in this field think he overeats.     Too often we think more is better.  But how about eating as little as possible, ensuring that everything you put in your mouth is utilized completely.    Some think that excess protein cause mineral imbalances, not to mention stress on the body.   Liver, which I know you do in copious amounts solves my cramping.    But taken in excess, or more than the body needs and wants, I have no idea as to the resultant.  Again, by blending your foods, you will never know how much in the moment your body is desiring.   That's why I continually point out here, that to learn to listen to your body, to let it tell you what it needs as opposed to you telling it what you think it needs, one should take a bit at a time of fresh (unfrozen) meat/food at a time and see if you do indeed want another.

The nearest source of fresh, grass fed, organ meats is over 150 miles from me. Taking on a paper route would not solve my problem. The nearest news paper is equally as far. Only selling all my properties, relocating and changing ocupations would enable me to eat fresh organ meats. More  than likely doing so would leave me homeless and destitute. Your advise is about as stupid and useless as telling someone stranded on a deserted island the same thing!

PLEASE NOTE. THE SCARS ON THE LAND ARE NOT FARMS. THEY ARE MADE BY HEAVY EQUIPMENT, MINING FOR MINERALS, ON A DRY LAKE BED. Trona is the location where over 90% of the worlds borax comes from! Nearly all of the large buildings in the satellite image belong to the processing plant for the minerals. 2/3rds of the tiny dots that are houses are abandoned. Most of the town is located near the plant. The other thing that looks like a town in the lower part of the image is mostly abandoned. The things that look like trees are mostly dead. Even cactus has a hard time growing here. The nearest small town with a Walmart and a few grocery stores is located 30 miles from me in a town that is supported exclusively from a very large military base. If not for the base there would not be another town for a hundred miles. As I said before the nearest real city is about 150 miles away! You can't even buy a fresh vegetable here and only frozen, processed junk meat is available locally. Thank god I can buy real meat in town near the base!

[Grey-Cup]

Raw carnivore is nutritionally complete. Your requirements for vitamin C are satisfied even without sweetbreads as long as you have a variety of organs.

You should abstain from salt and any added minerals. The amount of salt required is closely related to carbohydrate consumption. Because absorption of glucose requires sodium, which enterocytes can only obtain from the lumen of the intestine. If you eat a lot of carbohydrates, you need salt. If you do not eat carbohydrates, you have enough salt in the blood of raw meat. If you are cooking meat, you must add salt.

I follow raw carnivore PKD. 80% fat by ratios. Too much protein even raw will make you sluggish.

[Grey-Cup]

wouldn't think of not using grass-fed only.  Your choice. But I'd take a paper route to supplement income if I  had to.   In my opinion, you're overeating, if you're still eating five pounds of meat a day. Even Shawn Baker who is huge and works out like a fiend, eats around four pounds. And most in this field think he overeats.     Too often we think more is better.  But how about eating as little as possible, ensuring that everything you put in your mouth is utilized completely.    Some think that excess protein cause mineral imbalances, not to mention stress on the body.   Liver, which I know you do in copious amounts solves my cramping.    But taken in excess, or more than the body needs and wants, I have no idea as to the resultant.  Again, by blending your foods, you will never know how much in the moment your body is desiring.   That's why I continually point out here, that to learn to listen to your body, to let it tell you what it needs as opposed to you telling it what you think it needs, one should take a bit at a time of fresh (unfrozen) meat/food at a time and see if you do indeed want another.

Agreed, I did not realize health improvements until dropping my meat consumption to 1lb break-fast and .5lbs dinner. I only eat twice a day to maintain weight or would eat once a day otherwise. Upping fat was essential to achieve this reduction in food intake.

[van]

The nearest source of fresh, grass fed, organ meats is over 150 miles from me. Taking on a paper route would not solve my problem. The nearest news paper is equally as far. Only selling all my properties, relocating and changing ocupations would enable me to eat fresh organ meats. More  than likely doing so would leave me homeless and destitute. Your advise is about as stupid and useless as telling someone stranded on a deserted island the same thing!

PLEASE NOTE. THE SCARS ON THE LAND ARE NOT FARMS. THEY ARE MADE BY HEAVY EQUIPMENT, MINING FOR MINERALS, ON A DRY LAKE BED. Trona is the location where over 90% of the worlds borax comes from! Nearly all of the large buildings in the satellite image belong to the processing plant for the minerals. 2/3rds of the tiny dots that are houses are abandoned. Most of the town is located near the plant. The other thing that looks like a town in the lower part of the image is mostly abandoned. The things that look like trees are mostly dead. Even cactus has a hard time growing here. The nearest small town with a Walmart and a few grocery stores is located 30 miles from me in a town that is supported exclusively from a very large military base. If not for the base there would not be another town for a hundred miles. As I said before the nearest real city is about 150 miles away! You can't even buy a fresh vegetable here and only frozen, processed junk meat is available locally. Thank god I can buy real meat in town near the base!

most of my meat/fat comes via ups.   The paper route notation was only an inference to how important I believe grass fed is.  Check out a feedlot sometime, and you might come to the same conclusion.  And if you do, and if you can, Smell one of the cow's breath.  That is if you can discern it from the abysmal stench that permeates around you.  Small ranchers can fatten cattle on grain while they are grazing at the end of their life cycle, but true feedlots are a different animal, and that's where ninety percent of low price meat in discount stores comes from.

[surfsteve]

I think my craving for salt was an adaptation period as well as my craving for 5 or 6 pounds of meat a day. I've since cut down to around three pounds a day. Funny thing was that I actually lost a few pounds while eating that much. I have since gained it back and then some. All of it muscle. I look a lot more muscular than my avatar. The dark circles under my eyes have also been gone for quite some time.

What do you guys think about the need for extra potassium and magnesium on a carnivore diet? My symptoms have greatly diminished since taking some last night. Might just be something I need temporarily.

I think I'm going to stick with the wheatgrass too. On the days I didn't take it I didn't feel as good. My intend has been to gradually introduce foods back after being exclusively on meat. So far wheatgrass is the only additional food I crave.

Van: How do you get fresh meat delivered via UPS? I would think it would be high meat by the time it arrived. Is it packed in dry ice?

[van]

not dry ice, just ice packs and styrofoam insulation.  Three day fed x, or if near by reg. ups is normally overnight. 

[surfsteve]

I've noticed since I went carnivore and cut out all supplements that my muscles got really tight and stiff. I also had an ache in my heel that feels as if there is something crystallized or some calcium where it doesn't belong in there. In an attempt to correct this I thought maybe taking some digestive enzymes and vitamin C might help. It did but gave me diarrhea and super stinky bowel movements. I also started taking more magnesium and potassium but not that much in my opinion to cause diarrhea. I thought maybe it might be temporary and kept taking the supplements but it didn't change. I even tried eating some veggies but this didn't help. This morning I took some betaine HCL and it disappeared almost instantly.

Very strange that I have to supplement to get rid of the tight muscles and then take another supplement to get rid of the side effects from the first batch of supplements. Got to wonder what's going on there!

[surfsteve]

I'm thinking maybe the enzymes fed a bunch of pathogens while at the same time feeding me and that boosting up my HCL killed them. Been also thinking maybe I could cut out the enzyme supplements if I ate papaya and pineapple but then there's all that sugar! Going back on lemons might help with the HCL instead of the betaine. I dusted off an old can of pineapple juice and put it in the refrigerator last night and am contemplating if I should open it or not. For the short term I think I'll stick with the supplements. Maybe there's a few of them that would benefit me long term, but I feel better not taking them as opposed to all the ones I was taking when I was on them. Moderation? Just some thoughts...

Was also thinking of what Van said about grass fed. That he wouldn't even think of eating anything else? The actual wording of not thinking has me a bit concerned. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way but could it have actually been a Freudian slip?

Was also thinking of Bear. The carnivore who was a sound engineer for the Grateful Dead. I read a lot of his posts a few years ago on a forum and he sounded like a really healthy guy. But then I saw a video of him and he looked like death. I swear if he hadn't died a year or so later in an automobile accident he probably would have dropped dead anyway. Even Shawn Baker doesn't look that good for his age. Could it be that these guys are eating a cooked diet?

At this point I'm thinking that an omnivore diet is optimal. Instead of believing vegetables are good for me and that I should be eating as many of them as I can; trying the other extreme has led me to believe that I should only eat as many as I crave and that there's nothing wrong with using meat as a staple. It could be that vegetables aren't all they are cracked up to be but even cats and dogs, which are supposed to be carnivores, will eat grass if they are sick. If anything it  seems like we were meant to be omnivores.  Though I was eating near carnivore when I was in the best shape of my life in April, something made me get off the diet. I'm on the verge of approaching being in that good of shape again and instead of blowing it, I want to hang on to it this time!

I just had a funny thought about my craving for reconstituted wheagrass juice. Could this be mimicking what cats and dogs do when they eat grass?  I don't know if I should continue taking digestive enzymes but I do feel that I need the betaine HCL. I'm not sure if there's something lacking in my diet or if it's just because I am so old that my digestion isn't what it used to be.

I've also been thinking about the times I've been in the best shape of my life. It seems like the same thing always happens to me. That I over exercise and get a flu like symptom that caused pain and my muscles to cramp up. Yeah. Maybe the betaine HCL will fix that. I don't think the digestive enzymes are a bad thing either. If I could figure out a natural diet that would enable me to not need all that stuff I would but for right now this is the best I can think of.

[van]

read about excess protein and it's effect.  Yes, pumping in lots of protein will help show gains in the gym.  I wouldn't let that guide my food choices,, unless that was the most important thing in my life.   I'm lucky, I get local fresh fat that is incredibly good tasting.  I experiment with eating more fat and less protein.  that ratio changes as I become more fat adapted which also means I digest fat pretty easy now. 
   The Bear and I had some email exchanges.  That guy was a hot-tempered nut in my opinion.    And yes, many think that Sean Baker eats too much protein.  Watch him eat a steak, and notice how little fat he's consuming,, and all cooked to death. 
   But I read fat is where animals/we store toxins.  So again, to be consuming grain-fed beef where that animal has stored all the glycosides and other Monsanto created toxins in its' fat, to me, that is asking for trouble.

[surfsteve]

Hmm. I've probably been consuming less fat since starting a carnivore diet. I used to use plenty of olive and coconut oils. I think I might try adding them back and see what happens. Good point about toxins being stored in the fat. I been going for more fatty cuts of meat since experimenting with carnivore. I'm going to ask all my butchers and see if they can order grass fed tallow. There's a company in Los Angeles that sells it pretty cheap but they were out every time I asked for it. One thing that might be good is if I went back to eating grass fed muscle meats, which I can afford and only compromising on the organ meats, which I wish were available. It sounds funny but eating salads used to give me a lot of fat because of my home made dressings.

Anyone here make their own mayo? I just started making it again before going carnivore. I use it as a base for my dressings. I'm thinking maybe I could make some fat based dressings and sauces to put on meat.

Speaking of fat. There's a good chance that all the fat I've lost since going carnivore may have been flooding my body with toxins. Adding all these toxins to the ones in the fat from conventional beef and it could be a recipe for disaster.

I will keep searching for grass fed organ meats but I don't think it would be a good decision to stop eating organ meats if I can't get them.

So to recap: less protein, more fat, less conventionally fed fats, more olive and coconut oils, no more feed lot muscle meats, only cheaper grass fed cuts bought in bulk when on sale, eating vegetables only when I crave them but not forcing them because of the belief they are good for me, keep eating wild caught salmon and shrimp and no change in organ meat consumption. In the mean time I will keep using only supplements I feel are necessary on a conservative basis with the desire to eliminate them if possible. To add to this I think it would be a good idea to keep spice consumption to a minimum and that it was probably what was causing me pain in my kidney area.

Sounds like a good plan to me!

[surfsteve]

I did some thinking and I don't think it's a good idea to become dependent on digestive enzymes.

Here's a link on their side effects

https://www.livestrong.com/article/327136-digestive-enzyme-supplement-side-effects/

and this one is excellent about foods to eat in order to get your digestive system working on it's own.

https://lifespa.com/digestive-enzymes-the-hidden-dangers/

If the link is to be believed you'll be digesting like a 20 year old in no time.  I have plenty of olive oil and was already mentioning that I should start taking it in my last posts. Lemons are also mentioned. I opened a can of beets (oh no he ate some cooked food!) and made a pot of cinnamon stick tea last night. Woke up feeling pretty good this morning. My urine was dark, colored and foamy. I presume from the beet juice. Looking back, perhaps I picked up a parasite in a bad piece of raw meat I was eating. Na. I think it was probably a side effect from the digestive enzymes I was taking. Who knows? I think I'm going to definitely end eating pure carnivore and keep adding more and more veggies back in till I accidentally ingest something that was bothering me or causing inflammation. My guess is that I was eating too many sprouts and way too many spices.

I think I will probably keep my diet base on carnivore but will eat a fair amount of vegetables to push out the toxins from the meat I been eating and the fat loss I been experiencing. 

In conclusion I think that there are some plant based foods to keep your digestive system running optimally that you wont get on a pure carnivore diet. Sill not convinced I need any fiber and that many vegetables have toxins designed to keep themselves from being eaten. At this point I think it would be best if I looked at meat as food and plants as medicine; something which you need on occasion but can be very bad if you take too much.

[surfsteve]

If grass fed fats are unavailable what do you guys think about substituting olive oil and coconut oil in their place over conventional tallow or lard?

[TylerDurden]

They would be a poor substitute, imo. RVAFers often complain that raw olive oil does not really keep, being full of processed PUFAs, and coconut oil is also processed - I happen to get awful stomach-aches from eating any raw coconut oil, yet seem to be OK with eating raw, unprocessed coconuts. I am rarely in such a situation, but my preference would be  avocadoes and nuts like walnuts or brazil nuts for sources of fats. If I were in a permanent grassfed-free/wild game-free  situation, I would probably buy something like the mealworm-producing LivinFarms product, or,more likely, make my own cheaper product.

[surfsteve]

I just had my first heart meat smoothie in a long time. Man did it ever hit the spot!

I don't know why I stopped making them... Oh yeah, because I used to make heart meat jerky. I no longer consider dried meat to be raw. Technically it is but it's nutritional content based on the way it makes me feel is exactly like cooked meat. So in my book I consider dried to be just as bad or worse than cooked. Same thing goes for pepperoni only much more so.

Yesterday I bought 10 pounds each of ground tripe, ground kidney and ground beef heart. Spent an hour and a half dividing them all up into quarter pound balls, putting them into plastic bags, smashing them flat; then putting them into larger bags and labeling them before putting them into my freezer. I also do the same thing with thymus and rocky mountain oysters, except I slice them about a quarter inch thick with my slicer while still slightly frozen. Luckily I can buy calves liver already packaged and sliced so I don't have to do anything to it besides breaking it up by whacking it on the counter before dumping it in my new Ninja blender with some water!

[surfsteve]

They would be a poor substitute, imo. RVAFers often complain that raw olive oil does not really keep, being full of processed PUFAs, and coconut oil is also processed - I happen to get awful stomach-aches from eating any raw coconut oil, yet seem to be OK with eating raw, unprocessed coconuts. I am rarely in such a situation, but my preference would be  avocadoes and nuts like walnuts or brazil nuts for sources of fats. If I were in a permanent grassfed-free/wild game-free  situation, I would probably buy something like the mealworm-producing LivinFarms product, or,more likely, make my own cheaper product.

Thanks for your input Tyler. Unfortunately that wasn't what I wanted to hear but what I totally expected.

I think there's plenty of fat in tripe, liver and thymus but not enough in heart, kidney and Rocky Mountain "oysters".  Also I can only get grass fed hamburger in 15% or less. I would like it to be much more.

I agree with you on the avocados. I used to eat a ton of them and should probably go back to eating more. I am surprised to hear you recommend nuts. I always thought they contained a lot of protein, which I am trying to consume less of. About the same ratios as meat.

If you had to make a choice between virgin coconut and olive oils or adding more conventional raw tallow to low fat meats would you still give the same advise?

[TylerDurden]

Nuts contain a large amount of fat a lot more than the protein in many cases, eg:-

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods/walnuts#section1

https://www.verywellfit.com/brazil-nut-nutrition-facts-calories-and-health-benefits-4114227

The key with nuts is to always soak them in water for 24 hours before eating them as that lowers the antinutrient-levels in them.

I would not recommend any of those. Of course, I am biased as  my body simply cannot handle raw suet, however grassfed it is(tallow is the cooked/rendered version of suet). After eating raw suet, I, within an hour or so, have to go to the bathroom where I deposit very yellowy stools. This suggests to me that my body finds the stuff abhorrent and refuses to absorb the stuff.

[surfsteve]

Maybe I should reconsider nuts. I used to get terrible colds sores from them but I've been immune lately. Looked up pecans my favorite and they are even higher in fat than walnuts. I was surprised to find they didn't have nearly as much protein as I thought. Quite a bit less than meat. Almost forgot what you said about soaking them. I never tried that.

Going to read up on a couple links I found before posting this:

https://wellnessmama.com/59139/soaking-nuts-seeds/

https://blog.radiantlifecatalog.com/bid/69542/That-s-Nuts-A-Complete-Guide-to-Soaking-Nuts-and-Seeds

Ahh! Salt, Soak, rinse and DEHYDRATE! I remember you saying to dehydrate them before. Got some walnuts and pecans soaking now. The site says 7 hours so after that I will put them in the dehydrator. It says up to 150 degrees in the dehydrator. I will probably go for the high 90's

Hope this works out for me. I would like to start eating nuts again.

[TylerDurden]

Err, no, I never said to dehydrate them. That must have been someone else. I doubt that dehydration does anything but harm the food. After all, one primary benefit of raw foods is that they have a much higher water-content, thus enabling better digestion etc. I also would never recommend salting as I get very nasty, very alien-like reactions to anything more than a tiny pinch of salt at a time. And, last I checked, 24 hours were needed, not 7, in order to reduce the enzyme inhibitors and mineral blockers present in the seeds and nuts, the idea being to stimulate germination.

[surfsteve]

I will try them both ways, unless they all get eaten before they make it to the dehydrator. I suppose I could refrigerate them to keep them from going bad once I soak them. Unfortunately I am using broken pieces of nuts so this project was compromised right from the start. Will try some whole ones next time. I've had these for quite a while and they need to be used up anyway. I noticed that even after an hour of being soaked the taste has improved. Might even give sprouting them a try but nuts out of their shells won't really sprout. Soaking them and letting them rest for a bit after they've been soaked couldn't hurt though. I'm not big on dehydrated foods, even though I have 2 excellent dehydrators. The idea of eating soaked nuts appeals to me. So if they are good that way I will probably just refrigerate them like I mentioned.

[van]

more like 24-48 hours, and rinsing often.  Small pieces are already rancid, where anyplace the skin of the nut is removed.  Nuts out of shell most likely have been heated to expedite shelling.

[TylerDurden]

more like 24-48 hours, and rinsing often.  Small pieces are already rancid, where anyplace the skin of the nut is removed.  Nuts out of shell most likely have been heated to expedite shelling.

I wish a study was made about this. Until now, I understood that mainly cashews, and a lot of seeds, were exposed to significant heat prior to shelling, but little else. I would like to know if some nut-types can be de-shelled without heating. I had thought that walnuts could be deshelled without heating, just using nutcrackers....