Aajonus Vonderplanitz and HCL

[Sol.Sa]

I am pretty sure that in one video he said that he no longer has stomach acid. So my question is how did he absorb minerals, fat and b-vitamins because a lot of people say you need stomach acid to absorb those. Especially to release bile to absorb fat and b-vitamins. About pancreatic enzymes I can see that maybe there is less of a need if you eat raw? Because I feel like I have low stomach acid, maybe even enzymes and bile problems and I don’t absorb much minerals and fat and food even though I eat raw. So how come he was in a better shape than most „primal dieters“ I have seen online wirh no stomach acid and all that illness ridden background?

[PaganGoy]

Digestive problems Depend on what you eat and what you happen to eat together...
I have had chronic stomach pain, digestive issues... and have been underweight my entire life until I was given a copy of we want to live.
If you have any digestive issues read we want to live AND the recipe for living without disease.

[Sol.Sa]

I do have the book I read most of it and the remedies part too. Some of the remedies make sense some don’t. Some claims do not seem completely reasonable. But maybe I haven’t tried the things long enough I guess, did not „detox“ long enough. I eat raw beef, lamb, fish and organs. The beef combined with raw butter. It doesn’t make me come alive somehow, I had rare moments of clarity where it did. But I feel like something is still missing. Tried Betain HCL + Pepsin like 10 capsules (10 Grams of HCL) didn’t notice anything. I have silent reflux and low bone density meaning mineral deficiency I guess. I tried his remedy for that but it doesn’t feel like it helps me. Have tried raw honey with raw butter and raw sour cream but it didn’t help me absorb the fats and b-vitamins I think still. What was your experience? I think he helped his patients „individually“ trying and testing, working out the best solutions if anything. I think he stated it even in the book that everybody is different. Anyway I feel dehydrated because I do not absorb the fats properly and the fat soluble vitamins. I will try different things in the coming weeks. But the fresh, cold-pressed vegetable juices help me hydrate a bit meanwhile. I don’t know if you can heal digestion with just food or a diet alone and that’s what’s lacking for most people here I think. A lack of a properly working digestion, assimilation of nutrients the causes could be different for different people.

[PaganGoy]

oops I meant the recipe for living without disease book.****
Eating honey is a kind of art, it has to be unheated or it won't do anything and when you do have it must be had in the same BITE of food and mixed in your mouth.
If you find the sweetness too much then use crystallized unheated honey or put the liquid honey in the fridge to crystallize it or or put the crystallized honey in the fridge to further crystallize it.
Also papaya and pineapple can be had for enzymes during meat meals along with fat, eating fat in increments of 2.5-4 tbsp with all meat meals.
If eating cream with meat or in general make sure it is left at room temperature till it sours like yogurt or in general because fresh cream is veery hard to digest.
Another possibility is that the farmer could be freezing the butter/cream you get.

[PaganGoy]

It sounds to me like you would greatly benefit consuming more whole eggs for the easy digesting fat and lubrication/hydration.
to prevent histamine and toxicity they should at least be antibiotic/hormone free and preferably soy free, pastured and organic.

[van]

Digestive problems Depend on what you eat and what you happen to eat together...
I have had chronic stomach pain, digestive issues... and have been underweight my entire life until I was given a copy of we want to live.
If you have any digestive issues read we want to live AND the recipe for living without disease.

were you eating raw animal products primarily when you were this unhealthy underweight person?

[PaganGoy]

@Van
Yes, mainly raw beef.  I have gained weight and resolved nearly all previous issues since
reading both books and switching to mainly chicken and dairy.

[van]

Now mostly chicken and dairy, I for sure will be interested to see you fare long term.  I too gained weight years ago  when I included my own goats' milk.  Cows milk, especially has an insulin effect which most often will stimulate weight gain. 

   I was surprised to hear AV mention he had three different wardrobes.  One set of pants at 31 inches, another at 34, and another at 37.  Got to wonder how much honey and butter he ate to achieve that sort of weight gain.  And all supposedly just to detox his bodies fat stores.  Too bad he had to check out early, for in another 15-20 years he could have totally detoxed and shared that experience.

[Sol^Sa]

I somehow can’t get the activation email for my other account so Increated this one. I did keep the raw honey+butter in my mouth for a long time to aid digestion. Yesterday I was on a local farmers market I think the guy scammed me with his honey. I do and did consume large amounts of honey and consider myself as almost an expert I could taste that his honey was low quality and probably not even raw. Tasted like cheap sirup like honey from the grocery store. Or the bees were fed with sugar. I tried eggs from different sources, every few hours or 30 minutes even 2-3 eggs sometimes in combination with raw honey. My results with that were not very fruitful. And you are right like many people in this community about honey can’t stress enough how important the quality of the honey is. I threw the bad honey away that’s how you gotta handle them it’s just toxic sugar in such cases. I immediately also felt nauseous like in the past when I consumed reuglar high carb foods. With meat it’s not as bad as with honey although the quality of all food is important. Haven’t tried papaya yet mainly because of money issues due to some messed up tax calculations and it wasn’t even my fault but that’s how it is. Trying to efficiently use my ressources. Have tried the pineapple though, raw the fruit itself and it caused huge gut inflammation it was like I was burning. It was probably the fiber. The second pineapple I juiced and put the juice with about 7-10 eggs in a jar and let it sit on the counter for a day and drank like 3 cups of it every 1-2 hours. Got to say it didn’t give me any problems not even blood sugar problems to my surprise even though it was pure juice and the combination didn’t taste also surprisingly that sugary. Can recommend that. So fiber irritates me especially in combination with sugar and causes bloating and gas. Yes it’s hard to tell and some farmers don’t like „too many questions“ for good reasons. The raw butter I usually get from an organic shop here I will ask them if they freeze their raw dairy during transportation. Thank you for all the suggestions, appreciate it.

@van I read that you and other longterm raw paleo dieters here don’t tolerate raw dairy too well. Did you ever try kefir and generally fermented dairy and maybe in combination with raw honey? I find that raw milk while I don’t perfectly digest it, it sits in my gut for too long I have fewer to almost no problems with Kefir or sour milk. I generally don’t digest anything well but some foods give me less trouble like raw honey, eggs, meat, highly fermented dairy and vegetable juices. When I eat these foods in cooked or pasteurized form I get nausea instantly be it milk or honey. Especially cooked foods wirh carbs or sugars. I am from the caucasus maybe that’s why I have no probs with the Kefir.

Edit: I guess AV’s food fermented and putrefied in his gut, basically the bacteria digested the food for him even without bile, pancreatic enzymes and hcl+pepsin? So you would need huge amounts of bacteria and maybe in the right balance? Also the key here is probably that he ate a lot of already predigested, fermented foods? Don’t baby cows ferment the milk in their guts too before it gets absorbed? Do maybe humans or some humans lack some bacteria to do the same or we aren’t meant to do a similar digestive process in our guts? So the best replication of that would be to let the natural cow bacteria ferment the milk and then absorb the predigested nutrients especially with intact stomach acid, gut lining and bacteria balance I don’t see much evidence for why casein is so „bad“ for us or at least all of us. I see a lot of milk bashing here. I also get the feeling that the ZC, Paleo, Carnivore diet is a good diet and maybe the best diet for humans at least for some but I think it doesn’t solve the underlying issues. I don’t think it is good or necessary to consume dairy all the time but I think there is definitely still a problem with the digestive process itself if people get constipated and stuff on raw dairy. Maybe it is also almost impossible or very hard to bring back the ancestral gut flora (+balance) that was harmed by modern environment I could see that. Kefir though apparently has bacteria that populate the gut some other fermented foods like yoghurt don’t. So many factors to consider ...

[van]

I usually had three different strains of Kefir going at a time. Would switch between them.   I enjoyed the most adding raw milk to my kefir one to  one.   Made a very creamy not overly acidic drink.  I enjoyed the benefits of dairy for about 15 years.  Then it no longer was beneficial.   "We' tend to do what we believe in, or, if we have an initial good result with something, we repeat.  I repeated a long time and preached the benefits of dairy.

[PaganGoy]

@van
If I can ever manage to get a constant supply of fresh beef fat, get certain organs or hunt my own fowl I would do those things too. 
Even then with the beef fat which Ajanous himself recommended, the cattle in my area are slaughtered when they are too young to yield ANY kind of back fat or belly fat except in the brisket region.  The remaining corpse full of suet is then air dried a minimum of two WEEKS before going to my butcher which makes all the fat turn to chalk.
Dairy is NECESSARY for the many people in my situation on a raw RPD, its not like I can afford to eat marrow bones all day for fat instead of butter!
In my case when buying 100% grass fed organic beef muscle it digests terribly, I can only digest certain cuts like rib steak well.
As for fish in my case it depends on the fish greatly.
I drink all dairy clabbered, If I drink milk that is not chunky then I get headaches and digestion issues from the un-predigested sugar.
Clabbered milk/yogurt/cheese is very low in sugar by comparison.

[van]

where do you live?   And yes, clabbered is good.   I agree, bone marrow when you actually weigh what you get out of bone is Very expensive.   Maybe you could try lamb.  I switch between lamb and beef for my two meals a day.  Rarely if at all, I think, do they age lamb.  I really like  good lamb fat. 

[PaganGoy]

Canada outside Toronto (the GTA)*.  Lamb seems a little better to me, much better then beef.
I have had a rack of lamb before with all the fat on it from the same place and that was really delicious.
Lamb bone marrow from the smaller bones is also very very good.

[van]

you aren't by chance going to the ufc fight tonight in Toronto?   Maybe not your thing

[PaganGoy]

@sol.sa
The best way to digest butter etc by far is to either add it into a smoothie of milk, eggs and maybe some honey (optional) or make a butter/cream lube formula which is also from the recipe book.
@van
Ah, late hours maybe next time.  Sounds cool though

[Sol^Sa]

I watched a german documentary on bees today. Where they explained that bees traditionally lived in a symbiosis with a special little scorpion which protected them from the varroa mite because it hunted them. Also Beekeepers began to breed bees who are not so „lazy“ to produce more honey. These bees spent additionaly less time to clean themselves which would also help against varroa. Also those journalists bought some cheap grocery store honey mixed it with syrup and sold it on a local farmers market and nobody realized the scam. Very funny. They also did some laboratory testing on honeys some were contaminated with pesticides and city honey wirh lead. Money is the root of all evil, a really true saying.

[norawnofun]

@van why did you actually choose to raise goats back in the days, instead of a cow or sheep?

[van]

it was before online material ...  I had a bone bridge performed in my below knee amputated  side years after i had lost my leg waterskiing.   Bernard Jensen lived near by and hence his literature was in the health food stores...  He professed how healing raw goats milk was, and even to the point that it's greatest effects were had when taking it less than four hours from milking.   I first had a farmer friend raise them for me for the milk, which was supposed to be supreme for bone health and did want my operation to fail due to lack of bone knitting .  Then I got my own, and then they had babies......

[norawnofun]

I didn´t really understand all that you wrote, but I kinda got it Are we talking about THE Bernard Jensen Iridology guy? So you knew him? Great stuff! And in retrospect, do you think that the goat milk did a good job in healing your health issues? I eat and drink a lot of raw goat milk and cheese, but one thing I found that it´s pretty useless if you want to gain weight.

[van]

Bone bridge,, odd concept,  taking bone from your hip and placing it between the two cut ends of the fibula and tibia, bones in the lower leg...  yes, Bernard Jensen.   Yes I think it did supply ca. to the bone healing area.  Mg. is absent mostly in milk, baby cows get it in the grass they eat, springtime green.  I would def. add a mg. supplement of some sort.  I enjoyed making a kefir salad dressing, basically kefir with garlic, a good cup or more poured over a big green salad ( greens having mg. )  seemed to digest well, especially with fully kefired milk.

[surfsteve]

Sorry to hear about the loss of your leg. I had a malunion fracture of my left tibia from a head on motor cycle accident into a car. On the first day the DR. said there was a 50/50 chance I was going to loose my leg. Spent 2 years in a cast and they did a bone graft from my hip. The surgeon must have made a mistake because I heard him say "Oh shit!" as he was removing the bone from my hip. To this day I still have some loss of feeling there but my leg healed. To make it worse the surgeon said my leg was already healing when they cut into it. Fortunately I was able to keep my leg, though it's a little shorter than before the accident; but I flat out don't trust doctors.

[madnomad]

Yea it would be nice if bone marrow was cheaper. You guys who have access to raw butter have it made. Nearly impossible to source here. I have mostly been using lamb suet for my fat source but have problems with it if I consume too much in one day. If I stay under a certain threshold it digests fine. I much prefer marrow and tongue as fat sources but the suet is cheap...Raw butter or inexpensive marrow would be nice but probably only economically viable overseas.

Regarding raw honey, I used to love honey on SAD but now I don't even like raw honey...it's much too sweet and doesn't seem to do much for me. I actually find it more useful to heal wounds quickly when applied externally. Also I've found it helpful not to overly combine food unlike Aajonus, rather I eat eggs on their own, meat with animal fat, and fruit with avocado and space these foods at least a half hour or more apart from each other. This works better for me than combining them all together but I have eaten fruit with raw fermented dairy before and didn't have much of an issue with it.

If shin bone marrow wasn't so expensive I could eat that every day.

[ivanrk]

I think AV cause harm to many people with his BS claims. He thought that he had no stomach acid but i read a study where they claim that vagotomy - this is what AV had - does not cause lack of stomach acid. So the guy was digesting red meat fine and many of us cant do this.
Regarding "underlying issues" - they are mineral deficiency and hormone problems - in both cases raw paleo is the best solution.
And i would say copper deficiency is causing 99% of problems in our time - it seems all those enzymes - for digesting casein, gluten, red meat - all of them are copper dependent - when there is no copper body stop to produce enzymes and you can digest foods. So raw animal foods are the step in the right direction but this is not enough - red meat still needs HCL, casein in raw milk still needs intestinal peptidases etc. But there are foods that dont need HCL - i think raw eggs, raw butter, raw fish, raw liver, probably raw bone marrow. BTW i dont know why do you mix raw honey with butter - there is no lipase in honey - i checked this and found nothing. It will be better to mix raw butter with raw yolks - there is definately lipase in raw yolks also amylase for starch digestion. The enzyme for digesting casein is in ginger - i think asians have a dish called ginger curd - they coagulate milk with ginger juice. Red meat can be digested with papain and bromelain maybe even actinidin in raw kiwi.

Edit: I guess AV’s food fermented and putrefied in his gut, basically the bacteria digested the food for him even without bile, pancreatic enzymes and hcl+pepsin? So you would need huge amounts of bacteria and maybe in the right balance? Also the key here is probably that he ate a lot of already predigested, fermented foods? Don’t baby cows ferment the milk in their guts too before it gets absorbed? Do maybe humans or some humans lack some bacteria to do the same or we aren’t meant to do a similar digestive process in our guts? So the best replication of that would be to let the natural cow bacteria ferment the milk and then absorb the predigested nutrients especially with intact stomach acid, gut lining and bacteria balance I don’t see much evidence for why casein is so „bad“ for us or at least all of us. I see a lot of milk bashing here. I also get the feeling that the ZC, Paleo, Carnivore diet is a good diet and maybe the best diet for humans at least for some but I think it doesn’t solve the underlying issues. I don’t think it is good or necessary to consume dairy all the time but I think there is definitely still a problem with the digestive process itself if people get constipated and stuff on raw dairy. Maybe it is also almost impossible or very hard to bring back the ancestral gut flora (+balance) that was harmed by modern environment I could see that. Kefir though apparently has bacteria that populate the gut some other fermented foods like yoghurt don’t. So many factors to consider ...

[dariorpl]

van, I read your story and am now feeling regret for everytime I gave you a hard time here. Your success in coping with such a tragic situation and remain focused and able to pursue optimal health is admirable and inspiring.

The fact that you experimented with your own high quality dairy for such a long time before deciding to stop, also lends legitimacy to your views on the matter.

I hope to keep seeing many more posts of yours in the future, and I will certainly read them with another perspective now.

[van]

thanks for the thoughts.