Your thoughts on my High Meat preparation. I'm using 12 litre jar with more meat

[fireball]

Hey there,

I've been eating raw chicken eggs, duck eggs, ox liver, ox tongue and herring for a few months now and I have felt fine. I want to eventually try the 'high meat'. I've had a bit of ox liver in a standard 1 litre jar for over a month now. I've been airing it every 2-3 days. It's still the brown colour. No mould or anything. Doesn't smell bad actually.

Anyway, I want to start preparing my high meat as soon as possible so I can leave it for at least a year before eating. I thought it would be a good idea to buy a huge glass jar and put in a larger amount of meat. I managed to get some organic, grass fed ox tongue at a decent price so I bought about 6 tongues, cut them up into chunks and put them in a huge 12 litre glass jar. The reason I went for a single large jar was so less time was needed when airing. I can simply air the one huge jar instead of airing lots of smaller ones. Also, I wanted to make sure there was enough space for the air.

I have attached photos of my 12 litre jar with the ox tongue in. What do you think? When I see the meat inside all on top of one another, I become afraid of botulism. Do you think it will be alright if stirred and aired every 2 - 3 days? By the way, I am not keeping my high meat in the fridge, like Aajonus Wonderplants recommends. I am keeping it in an outdoor side cupboard in a bin / trash bag within a cardboard box with a few ice packs and some sheeps wool to keep it cool. The sheep wool came with my online meat orders to keep them cool.

In the photos I've also placed my 1 litre jar next to the 12 litre jar so you can actually see how big this thing is.

Your thoughts are much appreciated. Thanks alot!

[TylerDurden]

From my own experiences re storing high meat outside a fridge in a hot(Mediterranean climate), I would strongly suggest leaving 50% air in the relevant cotnainer and always airing once every day. Granted, in a hot environment, one must guard against flies laying their eggs on the underside of the lids of the plastic boxes you use. My solution was to use 2 plastic boxes , 1 within the other, with 50% air in the smaller one with the meat, then I would put both in 2 black plastic bags, and bury them all underground, and only air them for   c.30 seconds once a day, so as to grab enough free oxygen so that I could create high meat without botulinism.

[fireball]

Hey there. Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it!

I don't think flies will get to it as it's inside a cupboard. It's also inside thick black plastic bag, which is closed with a peg / clip. The plastic bag with the meat is then in a cardboard box. The ox tongues have been in for about a week now and I can't smell anything whatsoever. I can't smell anything from the liver in the smaller jar either unless I open it and get up close. I've never seen any flies when i've opened it either.

I'm living in England so some days it's hot and others not. I think it might be pretty cool with the ice packs in with it.

So do you think the ox tongue in the big jar looks good enough? Not too full? I think i'll air it every 1 - 2 days from now on.

[TylerDurden]

Fine, you're leaving more than enough air. Airing it every 2-3 days seems  OK given the more northerly climate in the UK.

[FRANCIS HOWARD BOND]

Is the use of a PLASTIC container likely to prove as problem with contacting the meat inside, as Inuits found?

[TylerDurden]

I have not found it so, tbh.

[norawnofun]

I´d never use anything plastic for fermenting such delicate things like HM. The possibility of leaching toxic plastic components into the HM would make me worry. Fermenting veggies, if done properly, is done only in properly sealed glass jars. I myself did my HM solely in glass jars. And when I did them I did it in smaller batches fermenting 1-1 1/2 month. In my personal opinion I would find it pretty risky to let it stand for a whole year without having it refrigerated. The temperature in the uk is changing during summer and winter, unlike the inuit which, in general, live in a much colder environment throughout the year. I wouldn´t risk it for a whole year outside.

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, I must admit that I recently tried drinking water in a plastic jug and found it to taste "less good" than if in a glass jar. Never noticed the difference re high-meat in plastic boxes, but maybe it's time to place high-meat in the glass jars instead, in future.

[fireball]

Thanks for your replies. Both of the jars shown are glass. There's no way i'd use plastic. What is the longest you can store high meat for? In my mind I was thinking the longer the better. I know Aajonus had high meat that was over a year old. I just watched this video though where the guy says if left for too long it's a 'toxic jelly':

https://youtu.be/UL6YNOa2w08

Also, are there other cultures in warmer climates that did the whole high meat thing?

[TylerDurden]

I suppose that, as long as the high-meat is aerated regularly, then nothing can go wrong.... No idea re warmer climes and high-meat but it seems likely that high-meat would be more likely to occur in warmer climes anyway.

[fireball]

Hmm yeah I get what you're saying. I'll be sure to air every 1-2 days. I'm going to start with the tiniest amount when I try my first piece.. especially when I try the tongue from the large jar. I must say that the tongue smells awful just after a couple of weeks. I actually don't mind the smell of the liver.

I aired and stirred it today using a long wooden spoon. Seeing and separating the sticky blocks of meat does still kind of get me worried about no oxygen getting to the pieces underneath. It becomes so glued together it makes me wonder if the pieces underneath get enough air. Even the pieces stuck between the top and bottom layers.

Maybe it would have been best for me to simply place the whole uncut tongues in the jar without cutting them? Maybe that would have been better because everything wouldn't be stuck together and would instead be free to move about and exposed to the new air. The liver moves very easily in it's own liquid. I do separate everything when stirring, but still, it's huge problem if botulism was to occur in just one little piece. I'm not sure how it works so forgive me if i'm being stupid.

[Susadele]

At first, me neither, I couldn't imagine a problem with letting ferment the high meat for longer than a year.. Since the longer one lets it sit, the further the bacteria will decompose / predigest the meat and the more bacteria will arise.

On the other side, what happens when there is no food left for tw bacteria? I don't know what biochemical processes occur then. Bacteria die-off? Toxic byproducts? Maybe that's what the man in your posted video refers to as being dangerous in to old high meat.

[fireball]

At first, me neither, I couldn't imagine a problem with letting ferment the high meat for longer than a year.. Since the longer one lets it sit, the further the bacteria will decompose / predigest the meat and the more bacteria will arise.

On the other side, what happens when there is no food left for tw bacteria? I don't know what biochemical processes occur then. Bacteria die-off? Toxic byproducts? Maybe that's what the man in your posted video refers to as being dangerous in to old high meat.

I have no idea! I'm actually going to start eating the high tongue from the big jar in a few weeks time instead of waiting near to a year. I'm also thinking about buying a cooler box to place the jar in. At the moment i've just got it in a cardboard box and i'm changing the Ice packs every day. It'll be much cooler in a proper box.

I am regretting using so much tongue now just because of how much it clumps together, which makes me worried about oxygen not getting to it. I should have gone with lots of liver instead because it seems to move freely.

[van]

stir it with a clean spoon or fork etc..

[fireball]

Just an update on my high meat. I bought a cheapish cooler box to keep all of my high meat in with a few ice packs. I change the Ice packs every day to keep it cooler and I air the meat every two days. It's not as cold as a fridge but it's still a little bit cooler. I keep the cooler box in a locked side cupboard.

Something i've been doing for the last two days is leaving the lid off the big glass jar and the the two clip jars I have in there. I've kept the lids sealed on the normal mason jars as i the meat is more liquidy and I didn't want it to spill. Keeping the lids off the jars does make it smell a bit more when I open the cupboard, but I thought it might allow a bit more oxygen to get in. Is it okay to leave the lids off?

Something i've noticed is the smell has reduced. I don't know if it's because i'm getting used to it or if it's because the lids are off. I'll have to seal the jars again and see if they smell as bad as they used to.

I've eaten some of the tongue from the big jar. No problems. I don't think i've felt anything from it though. Maybe I need to eat a bit more.

I'm thinking about having the cooler box lid left open and maybe putting some netting along the top to stop insects. I understand that this might not stop eggs though. But flies can't get to the box because it's in a locked cupboard. I just thought maybe having the box lid open, it would allow even more oxygen in.

I would have posted more frequently on here but ever since I signed up, I've had nothing but problems submitting my messages. I usually see this error message:

"An Error Has Occurred!
CleanTalk: *** Forbidden. Please enable JavaScript. ***"

I have to keep trying until it finally works. I think cleaning the browser sometimes solves it but then it appears again. It happens with other browsers too. It's really annoying.

[TylerDurden]

Check with GS, either PMing him from this board of forums or contacting him(ediwn casimeiro) on his website directly. He is the tech guru.I have had personal problems with many government websites all over the world with using the opera browser. I hate that as it is far more user-friendly than others. Beware of the flies as they are ingenious re getting their eggs under the lids of closed jars so that the eggs automatically drop into the meat as soon as you unscrew them.  I don't know if any netting can stop the eggs getting through.

[fireball]

Check with GS, either PMing him from this board of forums or contacting him(ediwn casimeiro) on his website directly. He is the tech guru.I have had personal problems with many government websites all over the world with using the opera browser. I hate that as it is far more user-friendly than others. Beware of the flies as they are ingenious re getting their eggs under the lids of closed jars so that the eggs automatically drop into the meat as soon as you unscrew them.  I don't know if any netting can stop the eggs getting through.

Okay I will do. Thanks for that. I think i've managed to get around it by logging in using 'Incognito Mode' within Google Chrome.

Yes you're right about the flies. I totally forgot to say that probably about 2 weeks ago, I discovered fly eggs around plastic lid of the big jar. There's actually another plastic cover that's underneath the lid so they couldn't drop in. I just wiped them off and I haven't had any since. This is when I was keeping the big jar in a cardboard box and bringing it to the back doors where the flies could get it. I thought I was very careful not letting them get to it but I must have just had my eyes off it for a little bit.

Let's say if insects can't get in, is it okay to leave the jars open inside the cooler box so there's more oxygen available?  Or must the jars be completely sealed shut for the good bacteria to feed on the oxygen properly? Would having the jars open allow bad bacteria to enter making the process dangerous? Forgive me if i'm being stupid here.

[TylerDurden]

No, you are being very clever. I have too many times put raw meat into glass jars inside 2 plastic boxes inside 2 plastic bags and the like , and then forgot about airing them once a day so that, after a weeK, I felt it wise to throw the meat away. If you can guarantee no fly-egg-contamination of the meat, then fine. The trouble I face is that I live with  various different others throughout the year, and they go paralytic and scared-to-death  at the mere mention of aging raw meat - at least they allow fresh, raw meat.

[fireball]

Nice, thank you! Yes people definitely think you're crazy. People always seem to be afraid of something new to them.

I've got some fish (herring) in a jar. I've had it in for a few weeks now and it's pretty damn slimy. I think i'm going to try some today. The Swedish ate fermented herring called Surströmming but it was done with salt to prevent it from rotting. Do you think it will be okay for me to eat? They used salt to prevent it from rotting. It does frighten me slightly when I read things like they used salt to prevent it from rotting, because then it makes me think that not using salt and just allowing it rot is dangerous.

[TylerDurden]

I would advise against it. I have occasionally, in the past, eaten some "high-meat" that I had left far too long unaired, and I would always experience a very toxic taste-feeling when I put the stuff into my mouth. I took that  as a sign that I should avoid such in future.

[fireball]

I would advise against it. I have occasionally, in the past, eaten some "high-meat" that I had left far too long unaired, and I would always experience a very toxic taste-feeling when I put the stuff into my mouth. I took that  as a sign that I should avoid such in future.

Sorry I didn't say.. I have been airing it. I was just seeing if high fish herring was okay to eat rotten because the Swedish people usually use salt when fermenting. I know you're 99.9% going to say it's fine to eat but I just thought i'd check if high fish is okay. I don't want to die here!

[TylerDurden]

"High-meat" is an acquired taste. When I first tried out various "high-meats", I found that aged fish and aged eggs  and aged muscle-meats to be absolutely revolting and could not  eat them if they were aged past a certain point. I found raw ox tongue and raw ox heart the easiest to deal with. I can, of course, handle raw aged cheese but, given the long-term effects of raw dairy on my health, I avoid that  as much as  humanly possible. I now can handle most muscle-meats as high-meat, but  still am put off by the taste of high-eggs and high seafood. I try to do things I enjoy, generally, so I am not too  worried about the lack of variety  of my high-meats.  Really, it's up to you - we all have different genes, different bodies, different health-situations, so we all have to experiment. I, for example, tend to get a nasty toxic shock in my mouth if I consume anything that is heavily salted.

[fireball]

"High-meat" is an acquired taste. When I first tried out various "high-meats", I found that aged fish and aged eggs  and aged muscle-meats to be absolutely revolting and could not  eat them if they were aged past a certain point. I found raw ox tongue and raw ox heart the easiest to deal with. I can, of course, handle raw aged cheese but, given the long-term effects of raw dairy on my health, I avoid that  as much as  humanly possible. I now can handle most muscle-meats as high-meat, but  still am put off by the taste of high-eggs and high seafood. I try to do things I enjoy, generally, so I am not too  worried about the lack of variety  of my high-meats.  Really, it's up to you - we all have different genes, different bodies, different health-situations, so we all have to experiment. I, for example, tend to get a nasty toxic shock in my mouth if I consume anything that is heavily salted.

Thanks alot! I tried a very tiny piece of the fish today and a bigger size of the ox tongue.

Something i've noticed when I looked at the ox tongue after keeping the lids off is that it looks more fresh or should I say 'alive' and even slightly liquidy. It now has a shiny coat whereas it was pretty dry and had a dead brown colour before when I kept the lids on. Maybe this is the result of more oxygen getting in for the bacteria.

[FRANCIS HOWARD BOND]

High fish is generally great, but you need to get used to it gradually, trying varieties of raw fish becoming progressively rotten over many weeks.    Correctly aired, and kept outside the refrigerator it will never get too rotten to enjoy, and improve with age, unless allowed to dry out.

[van]

the more oily or fatty the fish is, the more oxidized oils or fats you'll be ingesting.  Fish are mostly pufa rich, which go rancid very quickly.
  I share the opinion that traditionally fish was fermented or dried as a means to stay alive when sources of food were not available.  And, yes, one can develop a taste for it in spite of the rancid fats.  But only until recently has there been an understanding of how damaging rancid pufas can be.