Fat-soluble Vitamin Toxicity

[MrBBQ]

Hey all,

(moderators, feel free to displace the thread if it's misplaced, thanks!)

Finally, I'm kicking off a new thread, which is about a point of interest that's kept me intrigued for a few months...

Well, it all started when I was taking a non-wholefood vitamin K2 MK-4 supplement based on some research that I'd been doing about strengthening skeletal/dental tissue. I was aware that this supplement was synthetic, but I was willing to experiment with the RDA for a short duration to gauge any effects (as a means to identify any deficiency - strange approach, I know). This was during my raw vegan days...Ultimately, I believe this impacted my blood coagulation, which may have caused a very slight oxygen starvation to the brain tissues, leaving me with some strange cognitive and motor disturbances (which I still notice to a lesser extent now - e.g. a slight tremor when making fine hand movements)...

Suffice to say, I should've known better to stay away from synthetic doses of vitamins that effect blood coagulation as well as bone matrix protein activation. I learned my lesson...

Nevertheless, the fat-soluble plot thickens...

I'd read (I think) on WPF's website that the high doses of retinol (A) and cholecalciferol were (D3) quite safe in reasonably high doses due to the synergistic balancing of these 2 vitamins along with K2 (menaquinone MK-4) from aquatic/land livers. Obviously, I've read the stories about polar bear liver-induced deaths.

In the last couple of weeks, I've been taking 6ml fermented CLO per day, plus I ate ~6oz lamb's liver this week, along with a good measure of trimmed fats. Already, in a matter of days, my teeth feel stronger than they have done for a long time...

So, I've just seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HoW5S-Ij1A

Now I'm thinking about it, does my back feel a little stiff after shifting 30 flag stones the other day, or am I already feeling the effects of fat-soluble vitamins in excess, which my body can't easily eliminate.

I never want to insult any of my tissues ever again with excess fat-soluble vitamins, so I'm looking for some advice about a careful approach to consuming these organ meats (or their raw pressed oils), especially in a tooth healing protocol.

It seems that there's a caveat with consuming anything and it's sometimes undermining to one's own esteem to realise that foolish overconsumption is an easily fulfilled potential!

Please enlighten me and accept my apologies if this is a well-laboured topic already.

All the very best,

MrBBQ (journeying yet again!)

[goodsamaritan]

Real food is powerful and nutritious.
I've not experienced that liver overdose he's talking about.
I have experienced beef pancreas overdose... I woke up wobbly, my eyes double visioned... I said to myself... whoa, this beef pancreas is powerful stuff... didn't touch it afterwards.
I'm a regular liver eater and some kidneys eater.  I'm not the kind of guy who measures my stuff.  Maybe I can eat at most 4 tablespoons of liver in a meal.  But that would be only once a week at most.

[MrBBQ]

Hey goodsamaritan,

Thanks for the rapid response - most appreciated.

I agree - very powerful...At least I've felt its effect on my teeth already! It makes me wonder how much "high" liver one would have to eat in a week - probably just a teaspoon!

Well, like I said, I had 6ml of CLO every day for the last 2 weeks (according to most of what was said by Stephan @ WholeHealthSource blog), plus I ate the total amount of liver that I bought in a package, which was @6oz - that's probably a good 8 tablespoons in total...

Based on what I'd read from Weston Price et al, as long as the A was balanced out by D and K2 (which I've been getting from butter oil), there should be no resultant toxicity - only efficacy! My understanding is that if the ratios are correct, toxicity should not manifest, although who am I to comment?! I'm just experimenting after all...Also, if the liver is grass-finished in the case of land animals(yep, it was!), that would hopefully mean that the ratios are more according to nature...

The only thing I did in addition is buy (try for the first time) some liver from my local ethical butchers (strictly 100% grass-fed). I also believe that I skipped the CLO on the lamb liver days (can't be sure!), or maybe just took 2ml instead of 6ml over 3 servings...

Really, I think I'll leave my current batch of liver in the fridge for maybe another week or two and calm things down with those potent vitamins. Hopefully, I've provoked some awareness, if not just resurrected it...

I wonder if the true carnivore knows when to stop with these organs because I certainly didn't feel an instinctive "stop" signal (like "ugh, this suddenly seems disgusting/sickening").

Any insights/experiences would be most appreciated, thanks!

Is there any consensus on the optimal recovery from fat-soluble vitamin excess, or is this just me getting paranoid after a negative anecdote...?

Many thanks,

MrBBQ

[MrBBQ]

Here's the article (http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitaminasaga.html) that I read, with particular relevance in the section "THE MYTH OF VITAMIN A TOXICITY" (as below)...

The Merck Manual describes vitamin-A toxicity in less hysterical terms. Acute vitamin-A poisoning can occur in children after taking a single dose of synthetic vitamin A in the range of 300,000 IU or a daily dosage of 60,000 IU for a few weeks. Two fatalities have been reported from acute vitamin-A poisoning in children, which manifests as increased intracranial pressure and vomiting. For the vast majority, however, recovery after discontinuation is "spontaneous, with no residual damage."

In adults, according to the Merck Manual, vitamin-A toxicity has been reported in arctic explorers who developed drowsiness, irritability, headaches and vomiting, with subsequent peeling of the skin, within a few hours of ingesting several million units of vitamin A from polar bear or seal liver. Again, these symptoms cleared up with discontinuation of the vitamin-A rich food. Other than this unusual example, however, only vitamin-A from "megavitamin tablets containing vitamin A. . . when taken for a long time" has induced acute toxicity, that is, 100,000 IU synthetic vitamin-A per day taken for many months.

Unless you are an arctic explorer, it is virtually impossible to develop vitamin-A toxicity from food. The putative toxic dose of 100,000 IU per day would be contained in 3 tablespoons of high vitamin cod liver oil, 6 tablespoons of regular cod liver oil, two-and-one-half 100-gram servings of duck liver, about three 100-gram servings of beef liver, seven pounds of butter or 309 egg yolks. Even synthetic vitamin A is not toxic when given as a single large dose or in small amounts on a daily basis. Children in impoverished areas of the world are routinely given two 100,000-unit doses of retinol per year for infants and two 200,000-unit doses for children over 12 months.

I still find the YouTube anecdote worthwhile though...

MrBBQ

[wodgina]

Sounds like you may be over thinking things a bit. I don't know about synthetic Vitamin A toxcity but I've eaten over a 1 kg of liver and didn't notice any probs other than it went straight through me and I stopped eating it because I no longer craved it.

[MrBBQ]

Nice one for the wisdom, although I'm loathe not always to err on the side of caution (being respectful of Gaia and all that!), albeit sometimes at the expense of trusting my innate voices (woe is me!).

Ironic you should mention that because I reckon some of my last liver meal passed through undigested - I'll endeavour to be more aware of my instinctive cravings, which sounds perfectly reasonable, although my CLO is spiced with cinnamon, so it could be deceiving me somewhat!

Admittedly, I've not quite developed my palate for liver yet, preferring the lemon+sun-dried sea salt marinade version!

I have a kilogram of lamb hearts, which I'm yet to dabble with - should be interesting and I've heard it's quite nice...Does anyone have any suggestions for preparing heart or is it simply a matter of draining (or not?!) and carving?

Adios!

MrBBQ

[MrBBQ]

Oh, I feel a little dumb now...
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/health/vitamin-a-toxicity/

I'll accept penalty points for regurgitating old bile! I only stumbled on it while doing searches for marinades!

MrBBQ