Iron overload on raw meat diet

[Projectile Vomit]

Wow.. Eric, I love that! We have tons of acorns here too... can you please share how you do it step by step so I can try it too?
I love local wild foods... they are just my favorite!

Sure, I wrote about the process I use on my website: A Tale of 100 Acorns. Let me know if you have any questions.

[Inger]

Sure, I wrote about the process I use on my website: A Tale of 100 Acorns. Let me know if you have any questions.

Thank you Eric, awesome I am going to try that! Can I gather acorns now? Or do it have as they fall to the ground in fall? There are still plenty on the ground here...

How do you prepaire the ready flour, do you cook it into porridge, if, how long do you cook it for, or can one just soak it and eat it raw?

[Projectile Vomit]

If you see whole acorns, you can still gather them. Acorns from white oak species germinate in fall within weeks of dropping. If you want those, you have to gather them fast. Acorns from red oak species need to overwinter before they can germinate, so you have a much longer window over which to gather them. I might gather more in spring before the ground warms, since we had a huge mast year for them this year. I already gathered and processed about 30 gallons, and am about half way through the flour I made.

To make the flour into porridge I add 2 parts water and 1 part flour, bring the water to a boil and then turn the heat back and let the porridge steam on very low heat for about 15 minutes. Really though, you can eat acorn flour raw so you can cook it as little as you want. I will sweeten lightly with raw honey and top with fruit and a little raw goats milk kefir. It makes a very filling breakfast.

[Susadele]

Sure, I wrote about the process I use on my website: A Tale of 100 Acorns. Let me know if you have any questions.

So cool, thanks for sharing! Gonna try it out this year I guess.

[Susadele]

@ Inger
Yeah I would definitely go slow with the IP6 or even rethink it.
Because what I wonder about is: IP6 means phytic acid, and isn't that a chemical compound why grains, vegetables to a degree etc are considered unhealthy and people decrease it by fermentation, soaking etc? Because they are not binding exclusevly to iron, as well as zinc and many other important ones, right? All the minerals you would need to balance excess iron.
Also, in the end it is not a natural thing to supplement it. Could be harder to correct the damage caused by it than using the other methods to decrease iron. And I guess by donating blood + decrease dietary intake if iron + increase intake of copper + other changes you're already on a great way

[Susadele]

For me the main reasons I thought of an iron overload:
- I have on and off liver and pancreas pain, occassionally, short, not too bad, like a twitch and sometimes days or weeks in between without any. I already had prior to the diet. Sometimes got better, sometimes worse again. But since healing takes time, I just gave it some more time, not really bothered. Had a break of the pain for a month or so last November, it came back in a time when I ate more cooked meet than ever before.
- Also some on and off diabetic symptoms. Though these usually appeared when I for example included rice in my diet. I would pretty fast get vision problems, nerve pain, weight gain etc. Or sometimes having nerve pain from drinking freshly juiced organic oranges. I mean to some degree my body might have been sensitive to it because of longterm fruit and sugar etc restriction. But still, the degree to which I was sensitive to it, ws suspicous, especially because I suspected to heal on the diet, including the diabetic and pancreatic symptoms. On the other side, when eating a little bit of bread, potatoes, rice etc. several days in a row and I'd then get diabetic symptoms I didn't consider it too suspicious for a long time, because I knew from people in such forums, that they'd even react on such foods or vegetables immediately. But would they get diabetic symptoms? As far as I remember they rather get intolerance or digestive symptoms.
- The day I had the most pain was when I ate clay which is an iron bomb and raw beef heart, which is high in iron especially when taking its relatively low amount of copper and zinc into consideration, to balance the iron out. And that pain started bothering me.
- I didn't crave raw beef muscle meat since quite some time.
- And what I kind of use as my final proof (which I value higher than a blood test) is the following: Eating raw organs is not a big deal for me, I even sometimes really liked eating raw kidney, even when it wasn't that fresh and had a little unpleasent pissy smell. Anyway, (raw) spleen.. which is loaded with iron, I think it is most abundant there. I had a very specific disaffection when eating it.  I mean I like the look, it reminds me of berry sorbet and blood mixture or so. Kind of asthetic. The texture is also nice. And still eating it felt weird. Tried it a few times, each time organic, grass fed, very fresh.
Back then I thought, well I don't have access to raw blood, shouldn't I be missing iron and therefore find eating spleen satisfying?
It was weird to me. And after a few months, liver pain getting worse (again), sleep getting worse (again) in a very particular way that I could distinguish from sleeping issues I had before and therefore couldn't solve like before. Occasional nerve pain, sometimes worse. Worse skin. And maybe sth else as well which I don't remember right now. Looking worse, of corse.

Puuh, that was pretty detailed, sorry.
Anyway, I decreased my red meat and organ consumption. Some raw liver for copper. The occasional liver pain / twitch is rare by now. Symptomwise it is bearable, I've been through worse, but looking bad and feel exhausted because of the terrible sleep.

I would love to donate blood, but I am in a foreign country at the moment and I am not allowed to donate blood here yet. In 6 months they say.. Only way might be getting to know a nurse or similar and doing it privately, haha. Or going to a doctor for blood work and hope he will do the right measurements but I can't be sure that he'd do so and I anyway don't consider blood work to be always correct. Too many involved factors and things we don't know about yet. Additionally I'd need to hope that he'd prescribe me to donate blood. But I can't even know for sure if my current health insurance would pay for all that. And at the moment I don't wanna risk spending all the money by myself without even knowing if the doctor would measure the right stuff or if the measures are valid.
Little bit annoying situation

Might try the castor oil thing, though I don't understand how it should work if it is wrapped in plastic. Or did I get it wrong?
Otherwise just getting through it by lowering dietary iron intake. But might take very long. Let's see.

[sabertooth]

Liver and pancreatic pain suggest a possible issue with congested liver, which can make elimination and balancing of excessive elements difficult. Previous to adopting the raw paleo diet over a decade ago, I had issues with liver congestion, which was likely brought on by eating the wrong foods. I tried liver cleanses, but found that unless one corrects the true causes, then such liver cleanses only temporarily placate the issue. I also went through a period of iron overload when I was younger and eating fortified foods, and taking multivitamins that contained iron(big mistake). I even donated blood a few times, but found it actually made me feel weaker and more fatigued. Now after ten years on a raw meat based diet my iron levels measured in hair, urine, and blood test are within what is considered the normal range.

My opinion is that issues like iron retention and  liver congestion should resolve themselves in most cases without need of bloodletting or liver laxatives, as long as you eliminate the congestive foods, and nourish the body with a broad spectrum of raw animal nutrition, then balance should happen of its own

[norawnofun]

@Susadele no, you didn´t get it wrong, thats how he explained it. I was also confused about the plastic wrapping, but the only way to find out is to try it.

[Susadele]

Thanks for the feedback.
I can also imagine that iron overload often occurs in a context of liver problems or unbalanced nutrition (not enough copper, B2 etc.).

For some people this website might provide further interesting science based information:
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/91/5/1461S/4597424

One information might be especially important for Inger: You said you'll keep eating egg yolks (without egg white as far as I understood you). There's a protein in the egg white which inhibits iron absorbtion. And as nearly all of the iron is contained in the egg yolk, I'd eat the whole egg in an iron overload condition.

[sabertooth]

 I would also add that commercial animal feeds are often fortified with inorganic forms of iron, which is basically iron filings, and this excess of inorganic iron concentrated in egg yolks or animal organs and tissues, may be more difficult for the body to mitigate.

 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hemochromatosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20351443
"Excess iron is stored in your organs, especially your liver, heart and pancreas"

Perhaps people who consume large amounts of liver, heart, and meat, especially from unnaturally supplemented animals may be at greater risk.
It also notes that there is a genetic component, and perhaps people with a certain heritage of living in iron poor environments had to develop a capacity to hyper assimilate iron from the limited dietary sources of the region?

I am not yet convinced that iron overload would be an issue for people following a (non supplemented) wild or pasture raised whole animal approach, that includes eating plenty of bone based minerals to balance and buffer any excess iron.

[Inger]

Thanks for the feedback.
I can also imagine that iron overload often occurs in a context of liver problems or unbalanced nutrition (not enough copper, B2 etc.).

For some people this website might provide further interesting science based information:
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/91/5/1461S/4597424

One information might be especially important for Inger: You said you'll keep eating egg yolks (without egg white as far as I understood you). There's a protein in the egg white which inhibits iron absorbtion. And as nearly all of the iron is contained in the egg yolk, I'd eat the whole egg in an iron overload condition.

Susadele,
does cooked eggwhite still inhibit iron absorption?
I am doing the yolk raw for now and some whites cooked, not all though. I ditch some. I like to quickly sautee a big onion with herbs and maybe some mushrooms, just until a little soft, and then add the eggwhites and stir so it becomes a little like an omelette but was more onion and mushrooms that eggwhite. I pour some good quality olive oli on the top when ready. For vitamin E. And then I do the eggyolks raw.

My diet is right now looking pretty different than before christmas..lol
But it feels great and right. I just am going to eat mainly seafood until my next blood donation and the labs I am going to do after that to see how much I got my ferritine down.

Sure I did overdo it with raw muscle meat. I know. Probably I would not have run into issues if I had done bones with it. Like you do Derek.
After I get my ferritine down I am going to try out a different more broader approach, and also contonuing to doante blood so I can still eat lamb and Galloway

I do think heredity has a BIG impact in how much iron you absorb.

30% of my ancestors have extremely high iron absorption rate..... and it might be even more as this issue very often goes undiagnosed as doctors are often clueless what to look for. Also ferritine levels that are seen as "normal", "in range" are way too high, in reality.
My doctor said my vales were perfect! But they are way high.

I am going to get it down to maybe 30 or so, until then I am doing this strict regimen I do now
- IP6, donating blood as often as I am allowed to, no red meat but lots of seafood, oysters, herring etc. A little veggies here and there, more in spring and summer, as fat coconut oil and olive oil and eggyolks, some nuts. Lots of green tea, herbal tea, using herbs too. Raw sheep and goat cheeses for dessert to limit some iron uptake. Some dark chocolate/raw cacao. And regularly test my ferritine along the way.
Regular castor oil packs on my liver/belly
Also castor oil on face and neck (for wrinkles.. )

Also other factors probably are at play. I think psychological stress will make your body do different things - as your organs and belly are not as relaxed having tons of emotional pain. Which is not good. I had tons of heart ache after my last relationship ended very abruptly. This might have had a big impact too.
Also that I easily over eat, being able to digest huge amounts of meat and fat... using it a little to feel comforted... and safe. Red meat makes me feel good and stable and gives tons of energy for sure. So I easily over ate it.

[Susadele]

Susadele,
does cooked eggwhite still inhibit iron absorption?
I am doing the yolk raw for now and some whites cooked, not all though. I ditch some. I like to quickly sautee a big onion with herbs and maybe some mushrooms, just until a little soft, and then add the eggwhites and stir so it becomes a little like an omelette but was more onion and mushrooms that eggwhite. I pour some good quality olive oli on the top when ready. For vitamin E. And then I do the eggyolks raw.

My diet is right now looking pretty different than before christmas..lol
But it feels great and right. I just am going to eat mainly seafood until my next blood donation and the labs I am going to do after that to see how much I got my ferritine down.

Sure I did overdo it with raw muscle meat. I know. Probably I would not have run into issues if I had done bones with it. Like you do Derek.
After I get my ferritine down I am going to try out a different more broader approach, and also contonuing to doante blood so I can still eat lamb and Galloway

I do think heredity has a BIG impact in how much iron you absorb.

30% of my ancestors have extremely high iron absorption rate..... and it might be even more as this issue very often goes undiagnosed as doctors are often clueless what to look for. Also ferritine levels that are seen as "normal", "in range" are way too high, in reality.
My doctor said my vales were perfect! But they are way high.

I am going to get it down to maybe 30 or so, until then I am doing this strict regimen I do now
- IP6, donating blood as often as I am allowed to, no red meat but lots of seafood, oysters, herring etc. A little veggies here and there, more in spring and summer, as fat coconut oil and olive oil and eggyolks, some nuts. Lots of green tea, herbal tea, using herbs too. Raw sheep and goat cheeses for dessert to limit some iron uptake. Some dark chocolate/raw cacao. And regularly test my ferritine along the way.
Regular castor oil packs on my liver/belly
Also castor oil on face and neck (for wrinkles.. )

Also other factors probably are at play. I think psychological stress will make your body do different things - as your organs and belly are not as relaxed having tons of emotional pain. Which is not good. I had tons of heart ache after my last relationship ended very abruptly. This might have had a big impact too.
Also that I easily over eat, being able to digest huge amounts of meat and fat... using it a little to feel comforted... and safe. Red meat makes me feel good and stable and gives tons of energy for sure. So I easily over ate it.

Mhh I don't know for sure if cooked egg white would still inhibit iron absorption. I guess it decreases its ability a little, but since most people eat cooked eggs and the research usually adresses to such people, I guess there is still some iron inhibiting properties left in egg white after cooking. If I were you I'd research on it.

What do you think of what I wrote about the IP6?

The link I provided states that olive oil increases iron absorbtion.

By the way your breakfast sounds great! Inspires me to try it out as well.

[Susadele]

I only mention the effects of olive oil and egg white to bring awareness to natural methods of lowering iron instead of potentially harmful methods. I am not promoting to take rigidly care to consume 0 iron.

[Inger]

Susadele,
I hve now increased the IP6, and take 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening on empty belly. After the initial odd feeling, lightheaded, a little anxiety, the first 2 times, I have had zero issues anymore. In fact I feel really great.
I am going to continue taking 2000 mg/day and see how it goes. A week or so before donating blood next time I am going to stop it though. In 3 weeks, about. I might skip a day in between here and there too, read that could be a good idea.
I have been researching a lot about side effects of it but nothing I read has made me worried in my particular situation.

I have free access to as many oysters as I want, and they are full packed with minerals, so I eat them and they will replenish what I need I guess. Also seafood is a perfect food for balanced minerals. I rather have a small deficit in some mineral for a short while, than lots of excess iron making my organs rust.....

This is not for life time, but only until I get my ferritine down to about 30. The more i read about iron the more convinced I am that it is a very bad thing to have too much of. Just people do not talk about it much.

Dangers with a raw omnivore diet is, if one eats mainly fruit and raw meat, you might soon get way too much iron!
Fructose increases iron absorption, and then raw meat also is powerful for increasing iron in the body.
This can be a dangerous combo. Not need to be, but I would go and follow up regularly with ferritin/transferrin tests. Testing do not hurt.

Maybe that is why Halal meat was invented, and the odd rules that blood should not be consumed. Maybe it was to prevent iron overload.

Massai tribe who do drink raw blood, mix it with milk, and the calcium in milk prevents the iron absorption.

[Inger]

I only mention the effects of olive oil and egg white to bring awareness to natural methods of lowering iron instead of potentially harmful methods. I am not promoting to take rigidly care to consume 0 iron.

True, natural way is always best! I do that too. But I want it down faster. So I do IP6 too as long as I do not notice any bad effects. I am trying to be really aware of my body signals

If I would get phlebotomy I would choose that but doctors here does not order it except your ferritine is sky high. So I am not even going to ask. I go and donate blood instead, takes a little longer but in one year and 4 donations I will be at my goal.

[Inger]

Susadele, what are your diet looking like lately? Have you been raw omnivore or carnivore last years, how long? How much meat did you consume, about/day?
Are you still having your period regularly, if, do you have greater or lesser blood loss?

Iron overload can send you into early menopause.
I wonder if that happened to me. My perimenopause symptoms started at maybe 41... with less regular periods. Now I have had a period only every three months or so last year or two. Had some sweating. Hot flashes. Overheat easily. No more overheating since stopping red meat and doing my iron lessening protocol.
Too much iron heats your body up too much.

[Susadele]

Hey Inger,

good to hear you're doing better!

I can't heally describe my diet, since it changed a lot lately mostly due to social reasons (was working and living on a farm where I partly adapted my eating to some shitty food available). But some things I can say about the last ~ year: My appetite for raw meat decreased, I started eating cooked meat occassionally, then I usually ate it cooked, at times a quite high amount of raw heart because it did me well in the beginnings of raw paleo but didn't notice when it didn't really help anymore in these amounts. For a year or so I nearly ate no plants, just some occasional fruit or vegetables /salad stuff for social reasons. Stopped it though because I started enjoing plant foods. And also because in the summer I got insane insomnia, which I was only able to solve with carbs in the evening like fruit. Some experiences where I noticed I need more plant food than I thought.

Also what I forgot to mention: For three months I used clay to brush my teeth, didn't get any problems with it teethwise, but damn it is freaking high in iron. And I used it every day, some of it accidentally swallowing. I also washed my face with it. With that I put myself in a high iron environment, so to speak.
It might have been too much iron for my damaged liver to handle.
Anyway, I feel better now with taking care of iron consumption.
Anyway, some downwards symptoms started before using the clay. But could have been anything else. I am not worried though, because so far raw paleo / primal etc has been an up and down learning adventure for me, full of needs to adapt / change sth. After the iron issue, there is sth else to come, haha. I'll probably figure it out one day.

I still have my period, though the last three years I had a so called too short monthly cycle (it began before raw paleo / primal), and I was able to get a longer cycle by adding carbs and or cooked meat.

You read that elevated iron levels heat up the body?
Since raw paleo / primal / increasing animal products I have no longer problems with cold weather. I heard this from a few people with similar eating habbits and the opposite from vegans. Anyway, unfortunately I also developped a low tolerance towards heat in the summer.. Could be because of iron? Or simply another issue. I'll see how it goes the upcoming summer when iron is lowered.

[Inger]

Yes if you have high iron it is very possible it makes you hotter.

I also had a stressed(inflamed) feeling in my heart sometimes when taking longer hot showers, and iron can accumulate in the heart as well.
That feeling in the heart I describe above I have not had since I work on lowering my iron.

I wash my hair with ghassul clay since 10 yers or more, also my face. But I think the amount of iron varies in different clays? I tried to google it but could not find anything, except red clay might have high iron.

What sort of clay did you use?

[Susadele]

I guess too that clay types vary in their iron content.
Nevertheless, since it is more or less the same material, I could imagine that they all are high in iron. In the internet iron is listed as one of its main components. Though I don't know if it is referred to all clays.
On the other side, I don't know about the exact chemical form of iron in clay and its bioavailability. There are even contradicting theories on if clay (and earth in general) is a good dietary iron source or if it even inhibits iron absorbtion.
The clay that I ingested, but only rarely, was Terramin clay. I don't have it with me now but I think the recommended daily serving had 1000% of the iron RDA. Luckily I only used it with breaks in between. The day last month I had the most pain in my liver area was when I ingested the clay and later on raw beef heart. Anyway, since there are many people using it more often (though probably not very long term), it might work without major issues.
The one I used daily for skin and teeth for 2-3 months was french green clay. Even if it might not as high in iron as the Terramin, I still used it daily and let it absorb through my mouth for several minutes a day.
Regarding your Rhassoul clay: It is sometimes called red clay as well. But I don't know if I'd be worried if I used it only for hair and short skin washes (if the iron is absorbed at all).

[Inger]

Thanks Susa.
I am going to continue washing my hair with Ghassul because I really love it! But not going to let it sit on my skin, just rinse it off immediately.

I just realized I have been bathing in iron water for more than 6 years.

I have a rainbarrel I fill with water from the well on this property, it has too much iron to drink it. I take a hot shower and immediately get out and dip a minute or two in it. I do this practically every day. How much iron have I absorbed through my pores through these years! Oh man. How did I not think of this??
So many pieces to the puzzle.
I am going to fill the barrel with tap water, cost a little bit, but is very good quality here.

I am so glad I learned that iron absorbs through the skin.
I read studies about African tribes that get cancer on their feet soles because they walk barefoot on iron rich soil.... Imagine. Iron is a very potent poison when too much. Who would have thought.

[Susadele]

Damn..good you found out. And luckily still early enough.
Lifelong learning..

I only read about african tribes getting iron poisened by brewing beer in iron pots.
If you have your study by hand which says there are some who got it through walking in iron rich soils, please share it with me.

A little bit offtopic, but: Unfortunately Rhassoul clay made my hair frizzy, I liked how easiliy it cleans the hair though!

[a_real_man]

Here's what you wrote a few years ago:

"Re: GCB:Eating meat regularly is harmful to health
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2014, 05:22:56 pm »
Quote
Fun is good for health for sure lol

I should be dead by now eating huge amounts of meat for years and years...lol
but I feel better and better instead.... ? it is almost scary 

it could be the nipple stimulation tho....  who knows?"

It's best to remain humble and open minded.

[Satnee]

You can just donate your blood at regular intervals to reduce excess iron.

I believe the high iron accumulation is the result of our body trying to compensate for the lost blood when an animal attacked us during the paleo times?

[a_real_man]

People come and go. Most of the moderators here have long since stopped posting, but the forum owner never bothered to replace them. Facebook has pilfered much of people's time. It is easier to use than a clunky forum like this, and offers one-stop social media engagement, so to speak.

Tried googling "raw paleo diet facebook" - didn't find any groups?

[jibrael]

as fat coconut oil and olive oil and eggyolks, some nuts.

May I ask you how much coconut oil do you consume per day?

When I consume coconut oil, it starts giving me diarrhoea.

Are you taking no animal fat anymore?


 

I remember, you also told us that you also use coconut oil (or crushed coconut). And you wrote that you consider consuming coconut an important step in your diet. May I ask you to please explain us why coconut oil is important? Thanks.