Niacin flush

[zaida]

Have any of you here heard of this and what do you think of taking Niacin at the begging of a switch to raw from cooked?

[goodsamaritan]

I heard of niacin from the books of Hulda Clark for blood circulation.
We can eat cayenne pepper and it works for blood circulation... more natural.

I followed this advice and it helped me immensely to switch to raw animal food http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/sticky-advice-for-newbies-wishing-to-slowly-ease-into-a-raw-animal-food-diet/

[zaida]

I guess I was looking more into it to replenish the vitamin b-3 in my body. I am unsure if it is necessary to do right away or should I just let it happen over time with the change in diet?

[PaleoPhil]

Unless you have deficiency symptoms I don't see the point, and I am one who has benefited from some supplements in the past--but I only used them for deficiencies and inadequacies in the diet, otherwise it would probably have been a waste of money.

[zaida]

good point. I do not have any that I know of. So far digestion has been going good so I will just let nature take its course for now. I am going to be eating mainly muscle meat, fat and organ. I will probably do egg and fruit in the morning for the start more out of habit and for comfort than anything. What else is recommended to add in, cod liver oil? Also do any of you ever eat green tripe?

[Raw Rob]

I think you'll be fine if you stick to the new diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin#Food_sources

Also, it looks like lamb might have even more than beef according to this:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=141
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=117

(You said you were eating mutton I think)

Liver has a lot too of course.

I take cod liver oil sometimes. It's expensive though. I think if you're eating plenty of grass-fed meat/fat, and you're eating liver pretty consistently, you don't really need cod liver oil. (omega-3s, vitamins A, D, etc.) That's just my opinion though.

Welcome to the forum by the way!

[PaleoPhil]

I found that a gradual transition has been working well for me, since I had trouble eating and digesting fats. I found tallow, bone marrow and raw eggs to be easier to digest than raw suet, intramuscular fat, or fatty sausage. Coconut oil made me ill, but some do well on it. I also had to take potassium and zinc supplements to correct the deficiencies from past diet and damage done by a past prescription medicine until my GI was sufficiently healed and I was eating substantial amounts of raw meat and tallow and had cut out the carbs completely. I guess tallow has been the key to the transition for me and reaching mostly raw zero carb has been quite a health bonanza so far.

Cod liver or fish oil makes sense if you're eating animal fats from grain-fed animals that contain lower levels of omega 3s. Too much cod liver oil can build up excess vitamin A levels, so just don't go overboard if you take that. I know someone who uses it regularly and says it helps with his arthritis. Of course, if he ate a raw meats/fats/organs diet he wouldn't have the arthritis.

[zaida]

Hi Rob thanks for the welcome, yeah it was mutton I tried. Luckily I had a side of organic stuff in my freezer from not too long ago. Ill steal a bit of the CLO from my dogs for now. If I can find enough wild meat I do not think I will always need it. I have been studying the raw diet for dogs and cats for over a year now and I am pleased to find a lot of what I have been researching will now be able to be applied to my diet as well.

Phil- I thought about a gradual change but for myself I would never change then. I am still including a bit of fruits but hope to cut those out eventually as well.

I am considering on getting either side of buffalo or a whole elk. Which would be superior?

[Raw Kyle]

Will you be getting the organs and fat along with the muscle meats of those animals? Elk and bison are both great, but bison might have more fat and therefore better for a raw paleo food, especially if this is going to be your primary food for a while.

Niacin flush I've never done, but it seems unnecessary. Better than any cleanse or flush is simply improving your diet, getting exercise and fresh air and water, etc.

[zaida]

I will be getting the fat and organs along with the meat. If I get the right farmer I may be able to even get the brain other extras. Today was day 3 for me and it didn't go well. I had my meal yesterday at around 6 or 7 pm of mutton (both the meat and fat) which is the same as I had the day before. the first time I had it it went down great, yesterday when I went to bed though I didn't feel 100%. I ended up waking up a lot in the middle of the night and got a horrible sleep. Woke up in the morning and went off to work and didn't feel great but I was functional. Within and hour of working I felt horrible, like I needed to throw up and all my energy was draining from me. I made it through a few hours but finally had to try something as water wasn't working and I still had to finish the day at work. I grabbed a granola bar as that was the only food around available for the staff and at it. Within minutes I started to feel better. Not perfect but better enough to get through work. My work is physically demanding a lot of the time and I need to have energy to do it. Why is it that a sugar contained granola and almond bar made me feel better? I am really struggling here as I got home today and stared at the mutton but couldn't get myself to eat it for fear of tonight and tomorrow. I had toast and tomato instead - a horrible option that isn't sitting well in my stomach either. Any thoughts or help on this would be great.
Thanks.

[PaleoPhil]

Just mutton meat and fat made you sleep poorly and feel bad? Are you sure you didn't eat anything else with it? If not, the only thing I can think of is maybe you had trouble digesting raw intramuscular fat or gristle like I do and may need to build up to it like me? Lean raw steak, tallow and bone marrow have never given me any problems.

[Raw Kyle]

Do you only eat one meal a day? If you eat two or more meals a day, I would recommend starting out eating your first meal a manageable portion of raw meat and fat and occasionally organs, and then if you are not feeling good eating something else for your second or third meal. I find it easier to eat and digest raw meat after having something else earlier that day, like it's still sitting in my stomach. Or another option would be to only eat your raw animal food one day, and then the next day eat something else. There are different ways of playing around with getting used to the diet. Cold turkey is difficult and usually does result in some strong symptoms at the beginning.

[zaida]

Earlier on in the morning I had a shake that had a small handful of blue berries, two eggs and some ice. Today I was shooting for only one meal. My body had no problem with only doing a meal or a meal and a small one a day on a healthy SAD. I still feel bad and have been lying down for the whole evening. My throat and glands are swollen as well which I find a bit odd. The only problem for me eating my first meal of the day of raw meat and organs is that I would have to do it at work. I am not ready to bring this out in-front of others as I feel it will disturb them some . It confuses me that my body had no problem digesting the meat and fat one day (I had a berry shake that morning as well) and the next it just seemed to not go down at all. I did have more exercise the next day, don't know if that would have affected it? Plus went to the beach for two hours and did a lot of swimming in the lake. oh and I did have some herbal tea that night, caffeine free and I believe it was organic as well. I have never had a problem sleeping before, and I rarely wake in the middle of the night. Ill try and ease into the diet more slowly and see how it goes.

Is there a day by day journal on here of someone starting out and their experiences at the beginning? That would be helpful to read.
Thanks,

[PaleoPhil]

...Is there a day by day journal on here of someone starting out and their experiences at the beginning? That would be helpful to read.
Thanks,

Lex Rooker's journal doesn't start at the beginning, but he in some of his posts on this forum he talks about some of the bad experiences he had in the first 6 months or so of going cold turkey all-raw zero carb meats/fats/organs. He stuck with it because he had some serious problems like chronic precancerous skin lesions he wanted to see if he could get rid of. He is very helpful if you ask him questions.

I haven't had any negative side effects beyond weight loss (I'm already thin), which I control by weighing myself to make sure I'm eating enough. I'm not anorexic or anything and I tend to eat more than anyone I know, but I have to eat huge amounts of food to avoid losing weight on mostly-raw ZC. I think the reason I've avoided any side effects is I was already Paleo and fairly low-carb and eating some raw meats (jerky) before I went ZC, high-fat, mostly raw. Being able to digest fats well and enjoy them has taken some time.

[RawZi]

good point. I do not have any that I know of. So far digestion has been going good so I will just let nature take its course for now. I am going to be eating mainly muscle meat, fat and organ. I will probably do egg and fruit in the morning for the start more out of habit and for comfort than anything. What else is recommended to add in, cod liver oil? Also do any of you ever eat green tripe?

    I haven't tried raw tripe yet, but I want to.  What kinds of tripe are there besides green?

    Why not nicotinic acid?  Why niacin? 

Nicotinic acid (but not nicotinamide) given in drug dosage improves the blood cholesterol profile, and has been used to clear the body of organic poisons, such as certain insecticides. People report more mental alertness when this vitamin is in sufficient supply.

Deficiency of vitamin B3

A deficiency may cause pellagra, the classic niacin deficiency disease, and is characterized by bilateral dermatitis, diarrhea, and dementia.

A shortage of niacin may be indicated with symptoms such as canker sores, depression, diarrhea, dizziness, fatigue, halitosis, headaches, indigestion, insomnia, limb pains, loss of appetite, low blood sugar, muscular weakness, skin eruptions, and inflammation.

Dosage

The dosage underneath is the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA), but be aware that this dosage is the minimum that you require per day, to ward off serious deficiency of this particular nutrient. In the therapeutic use of this nutrient, the dosage is usually increased considerably, but the toxicity level must be kept in mind.

Male 18 mg per day and female 13 mg per day although 100 mg is mostly used in supplementation.

Large doses given to lower cholesterol may produce hyperuricemia, and hepatic abnormalities. These effects are reversed if the drug is reduced in amount or discontinued.

Toxicity and symptoms of high intake

Nicotinic acid, but not nicotinamide in doses larger than 200 mg causes flushing by dilating the blood vessels, which can also cause the blood pressure to drop.

These flushes are normally harmless. Large dosages can also cause itching, elevated blood glucose, peptic ulcers and liver damage

Best used with

Niacin is best taken with the B group vitamins and vitamin C.

When more may be required

Consuming alcohol and not having enough protein in your diet may increase your need for niacin.

People with diabetes, glaucoma, any liver disease or peptic ulcers should be careful of niacin supplementation.

Enemy of vitamin B3

Niacin is lost readily when food is cooked in water.

Other interesting points

Nicotinamide is under investigation for helping to prevent and control diabetes.

Food sources of vitamin B3

Liver, lean meat, poultry, fish, rabbit, nuts, peanut yeast, meats including

    I think from what you're eating, you should be getting plenty of B3 already, even enough to flush if needed.

Now this is the really important part – Niacinamide does NOT trigger the switch in the pathways. It’ll stop you from getting Pellagra, sure. But it won’t flip the switch to say “hey, you’ve got enough Niacin – let’s start making Serotonin instead.”

So your body will carry on trying to convert Tryptophan into Niacin, and use it all up, leaving you with a somewhat lower amount of Serotonin in your system (and Vitamin B6, as this is used up in the conversion process).

How do you get around this?

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/24/2/153.pdf (The Nicotinic Acid Content of Meat, W.J. Dann, P.J. Handler, April 16 1942, The Journal of Nutrition)

The first paper discusses how typical cooking methods cause nicotinic acid to be lost in the process when cooking fresh and canned fruits and vegetables. This can be – especially if you don’t use the cooking water elsewhere in your cooking – anywhere up to 41% of the amount of Vitamin B3 in the food – and we’re talking about typical portions of about 3.5oz here, which typically contain only about .5mg to begin with. (Although if you want a boost, go for peas and asparagus).

The second paper discusses how cooking meat affects the same thing; the result here is that while a lot of meats have more nicotinic acid in them than veggies, they typically lose over half of it during cooking. That, and the best sources for your are chicken breast, chicken liver and other kinds of liver. But, of course, you still lose up to 50% of the nicotinic acid in the food by cooking it.
Simple. Start taking the nicotinic acid form, along with Tryptophan. This works much better than St. John’s Wort or a prescription SSRI (at least, in my experience).

Why does it work better?

Your body can regulate the conversion process. It can limit the amount of serotonin in your system, and target the results. What’s more, your brain directly uses the higher amount of Tryptophan and converts it to Serotonin inside your brain. Which is much better than SSRIs which can have nasty effects on the Serotonin producing cells in your gut.

(Your gut has its own, entirely separate brain to control digestion, a medical fact that was almost lost for about 100 years, but that’s a story for another time).

What about 5-HTP? Why not just use that?

5-HTP is an intermediate step in the production of Serotonin.

But your body doesn’t regulate its conversion to Serotonin. It’s not limited, other than by the amount of 5-HTP decarboxylase in your system.

This means that you can get Serotonin overload. What’s more, most of the conversion will happen in your body – not your brain. Before you even get close to a therapeutic amount, you’ll start getting the shakes, and will probably vomit. Sure, some of it will make it into the brain – but it’ll also be floating around your body. (And that can cause heart issues, so don’t do it!).

So What Should I Take?

Before I go to bed, I personally am taking 1500mg of L-Tryptophan, along with 300mg of Nicotinic Acid. (Be VERY careful to get the Nicotinic acid form of Niacin – it’s often hard to tell, and the most clearly labeled form is SolarRay’s brand). I also take about 250mg of B6 (which in some studies helps the brain convert the Tryptophan into Serotonin, which is confusing, as B6 is involved in the synthesis of Niacin), and 100mg of B1 (because I drink occasionally, and eat a lot of sugary foods).

The effects come on within about 15 minutes, and I’m no longer depressed or anxious at all, and get a very good night’s sleep.

I occasionally try this mix during the day, and it works well then too. There’s some flushing that occurs (skin redness & itching), but that goes away over time and lessens over the course of a few weeks.

If you try this out, be careful NOT to take more than 1500mg of Niacin per day. For safety’s sake, keep it below 1000mg. And DON’T mix it with SSRIs, or you risk getting too much Serotonin – which is also bad.

A Call for Research

And here’s the important thing:

Can we please do a study to lock down the exact mechanism of the switching pathway to determine exactly how Nicotinic acid supplementation switches production of Niacin to production of Serotonin in the body?

If we do this study, we can probably help the millions of people around the world with depression by mandating a switch from Niacinamide fortification of foods to Nicotinic Acid supplementation (or a 50-50 mix) in foods.

We beat Pellagra. We can beat depression too.

Disclaimer: As ever, I’m not a medical doctor, and don’t claim to be one. Use this information at your own risk, and consult your physician before proceeding. I can’t be held responsible for any bad side effects you may experience by following this advice. Nutritional supplements are effectively drugs, and should be treated as such.

[Raw Kyle]

Maybe you could try doing a cooked paleo diet first, and then start to replace cooked meat with raw meat? There's a lot of approaches to transitioning, cold turkey or close to it will definitely cause unpleasant symptoms.

[zaida]

RawZi- great read. There is white bleached tripe that you can buy from the store sometimes (not my idea of good food). I am going to work on switching to a lightly cooked pale diet and then try and transition over slowly. I want to cut out all sugar, caffeine, grains etc and processed foods. Ill stick to some fruit and a bit of veg along with lightly cooked beef most likely. I will continue to eat marrow and occasionally have raw organs an meat/fat but try and do it on the days I have a day off the next day .

The hard part is that everyone seems to plan social events around food. I have been thinking about it and ways around it as my will power is not so good. I am going to try and divert plans that are suppose to be for lunches or suppers to a walk in a park or going to a show. If I had time off work I would prefer to going cold turkey but that just isn't an option at this time.

The one thing I do noticed with raw meat is that it seems to sit in your stomach initially better (the one next morning for me not so much though). Cooked food seems heavy while raw almost seems light and easy. Anyone ever notice this? When I was working at a steakhouse a while back I ate raw baseball steaks and salmon almost every day and I felt my digestion was better then than ever.

[goodsamaritan]

Regarding will power... I find that as long as I stuff myself with fat in the morning or before lunch before I go to an event, I have no cravings and no need for will power.

A technique I do is bring my raw meat meal before a known "dinner" and when I park my car, I eat my real raw meat dinner.  Once I'm in the event, I just eat socially TINY bits of whatever seems passable.

I now have a bag of disposable chopsticks in my car.

[Raw Kyle]

The one thing I do noticed with raw meat is that it seems to sit in your stomach initially better (the one next morning for me not so much though). Cooked food seems heavy while raw almost seems light and easy.

Definitely. I've been on different raw diets and calorie for calorie raw meat and fat digest easier and quicker than anything else, including fruit.

[PaleoPhil]

Yep, raw meat definitely digests more easily than cooked for me too. Heavily cooked meat (a la McDonalds, Burger King, etc.) feels like a lump of shoe leather sitting in my stomach, whereas I hardly even notice raw meat in my stomach--I just feel less hungry. I don't even get a "stuffed" feeling--just a feeling that I couldn't possibly take another bite. It's hard to explain, but it even seems to be more in my mouth, throat and brain than in my stomach. I can't explain that. I read some other people like Lex mention something like that, so I guess it's the more natural feeling of satisfying hunger than what carbs and overcooked foods give. If someone had tried to tell me that years ago I would have suspected they were delusional.  

[RawZi]

RawZi- great read. There is white bleached tripe that you can buy from the store sometimes (not my idea of good food). I am going to work on switching to a lightly cooked pale diet and then try and transition over slowly. I want to cut out all sugar, caffeine, grains etc and processed foods. Ill stick to some fruit and a bit of veg along with lightly cooked beef most likely. I will continue to eat marrow and occasionally have raw organs an meat/fat but try and do it on the days I have a day off the next day .

    I'm glad to be of some help.  Funny thing, I accidentally met someone a couple hours after I posted that who was part of the late '70's early '80 test group at NIH to have his cholesterol lowered via use of nicotinic acid.  It did help him, but they never told him raw meat or any meat has it.  Where do I get green tripe?  Is it green only in cow?  Do your diet transition however you need.  Best of success to you!

[Josh]

Do you only eat one meal a day? If you eat two or more meals a day, I would recommend starting out eating your first meal a manageable portion of raw meat and fat and occasionally organs, and then if you are not feeling good eating something else for your second or third meal. I find it easier to eat and digest raw meat after having something else earlier that day, like it's still sitting in my stomach. Or another option would be to only eat your raw animal food one day, and then the next day eat something else. There are different ways of playing around with getting used to the diet. Cold turkey is difficult and usually does result in some strong symptoms at the beginning.

Hi Kyle. Don't mean to be pedantic, but I'm gonna be trying the 2 meals a day thing. Can you clarify if you prefer to have raw meat for the first meal or the second as you seem to say it both ways? Or if you have tried both, which way worked out best.

Cheers, Josh

[Raw Kyle]

Hi Kyle. Don't mean to be pedantic, but I'm gonna be trying the 2 meals a day thing. Can you clarify if you prefer to have raw meat for the first meal or the second as you seem to say it both ways? Or if you have tried both, which way worked out best.

Cheers, Josh

Eating raw first works better for me because it digests faster. If you eat a cooked meal first then it may not be done digesting when you want to eat your raw meal later. Also eating cooked food turns me off to raw.

[Josh]

Thanks man. That's what I'd intuitively go for anyway, so good to know.

[zaida]

My understanding of green tripe is that it is the lining of the stomach, I think a cow has a few stomachs and that certain ones are used for green tripe. You could also get green tripe from a goat, deer, lamb etc I believe. Its funny when humans nowadays get a cow butchered all they want is the muscle meat... the butchers literally throw most of the bone and fat away! Get to know some butchers and farmers in your area and you will surely find either cheap or free bone marrow and fat. Just takes some hunting and lots of smiles! I have found butchers more than happy to unload their scraps to my for my dogs, now if I told them I was going to eat it they may find that a bit strange . I use to buy all my meat and other parts from butchers in the city but now only buy directly from the farm. Its way cheaper and you can get it more to your specifications. Its even cheaper too I find when they allow me to do the skinning and butchering myself although it can be a bit of a messy job.  Great way to get fresh blood though.