raw meat vs. frozen

[dizzybee6]

I have read a lot about the benefits to raw meat and how freezing it is bad. I'm curious how many people can actually set their schedule up to only eat raw fresh (never been frozen) meat. I would like to be able to eat that way but it's not  necessarily feasable. Anyone have sugestions to help or how they may have delt with this.  thanks

[PaleoPhil]

How does one even know whether store-bought meat was never frozen? I don't think there are any regulations on that like there are with fish, are there?

[carnivore]

I have read a lot about the benefits to raw meat and how freezing it is bad. I'm curious how many people can actually set their schedule up to only eat raw fresh (never been frozen) meat. I would like to be able to eat that way but it's not  necessarily feasable. Anyone have sugestions to help or how they may have delt with this.  thanks

Lex do very well with frozen meat!

[goodsamaritan]

I get freshly killed meat: beef and goat that is never frozen, never touched the refrigerator or freezer.

Because that is the way it is done in Manila at the wet markets.  (Lucky Me)

I can attest that the taste is somewhat diluted when the beef is frozen in my home freezer.

But home frozen is not as bad as letting the fresh beef sit in the refrigerator for 3 days.

There is the sheer delight of me buying lunch time at the wet market butcher 1/4 kilo of freshly killed  beef sirloin and having the butcher slice it in sashimi cuts and greedily eating it all... what a meal.

I posted freshly killed beef and wet market pics here http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/market-pictures/

[lex_rooker]

I just eat frozen meat.  I think the claims for damage due to freezing are a bit overblown.  When meat is frozen, the water in the cells freezes and expands.  This can cause some of the cells to rupture and this is why we see a good bit of liquid draining from frozen meat as it thaws. I just collect the liquid and add it back into the meat before I eat it.  The meat will break down a bit faster after thawing but I ususally eat it fairly soon (within a day or so) so this is not a problem for me.

Now consider the option of meat that was never frozen.  Once the animal is killed, the flesh starts to break down through enzyme and bacterial action. (Freezing slows this down to almost nonexistent but doesn't stop it completely.)  The warmer the meat the faster the breakdown occurs.  Steaks are often "aged" for several weeks to allow time for the meat to breakdown and become more "tender".

Now, unless we are there at the moment of the kill to eat the meat 'fresh' while it is still warm, the question is, what does more damage to the nutritional value of the meat over time?: freezing to halt enzyme and bacterial breakdown of the meat (but rupturing some cellular walls, which is the whole point of chewing and digestion, BTW), OR, letting the 'fresh' meat rot and decompose at temperatures above freezing for several days or weeks until we purchase and eat it?

Freezing works for me,

Lex

[dizzybee6]

Ok, thank oufor the ino (it realy is what i was looking to learn) what about the quality of the meat. I cant always find free range meat  but i also dont want to be eating meat full of all kinds of other crap either.  If i buy regular store (big commercial) pork or chicken do i have to worry about something in the rawmeat making me sick? Or is it possible to eat to much fish? The last thing i need is to change my diet get sick and hve my very close minded (but sweet) hubby telling me it's because i ate raw meat.

[carnivore]

I just eat frozen meat.  I think the claims for damage due to freezing are a bit overblown.  When meat is frozen, the water in the cells freezes and expands.  This can cause some of the cells to rupture and this is why we see a good bit of liquid draining from frozen meat as it thaws. I just collect the liquid and add it back into the meat before I eat it.  The meat will break down a bit faster after thawing but I ususally eat it fairly soon (within a day or so) so this is not a problem for me.

Now consider the option of meat that was never frozen.  Once the animal is killed, the flesh starts to break down through enzyme and bacterial action. (Freezing slows this down to almost nonexistent but doesn't stop it completely.)  The warmer the meat the faster the breakdown occurs.  Steaks are often "aged" for several weeks to allow time for the meat to breakdown and become more "tender".

Now, unless we are there at the moment of the kill to eat the meat 'fresh' while it is still warm, the question is, what does more damage to the nutritional value of the meat over time?: freezing to halt enzyme and bacterial breakdown of the meat (but rupturing some cellular walls, which is the whole point of chewing and digestion, BTW), OR, letting the 'fresh' meat rot and decompose at temperatures above freezing for several days or weeks until we purchase and eat it?

Freezing works for me,

Lex

The meat does not rot and decompose in a dry refrigerator. It just gently dries, and pass through different stages that can give some surprising tastes.
The only problem I can see with aged meat is the creation of AGEs. But the quantity is minimal, even after a few months.

 

[lex_rooker]

The meat does not rot and decompose in a dry refrigerator. It just gently dries, and pass through different stages that can give some surprising tastes.  The only problem I can see with aged meat is the creation of AGEs. But the quantity is minimal, even after a few months.

Of course it decomposes.  What do you think those different stages are? Cells are not growing, dividing, and respiring during the aging process, they are breaking down and decomposing. The whole point of aging meat is for the meat to slowly decompose creating a more 'tender' and 'flavorful' product. This happens as enzymes and bacteria break down the tissue. In the common vernacular it is called rotting. Dry refrigeration just slows the procress and allows more control.

There is little difference between creating High Meat and Dry Aging except speed.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

I'm still curious about how one knows whether store-bought meat was ever frozen or not, since I don't think there are any regulations on that for meat like there are with fish. So unless one has access to a quality butcher, like our good buddy goodsamaritan does, I don't see how one can be sure to avoid eating meat that has been frozen and then thawed. Here's what someone said about this elsewhere:

<<Try a butcher A lot of meat you get at a grocery store comes in boxes frozen and then "thawed" in the meat trays before they are put out for consumer purchase. Some grocery stores still have in-house butchers....but most that have "butchers" behind the scenes are simply people defrosting frozen meat or making simple cuts. Take Wal-Mart meat for example...it's all pre-packaged, frozen and then thawed. Ask one of the people in the back to cut you something specific....they won't be able to.>> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080306071032AAgv8kf

Like Lex says, though, I don't think freezing meat is a big issue, though re-freezing it might be.

[lex_rooker]

..... I don't think freezing meat is a big issue, though re-freezing it might be.

Most red meat is not frozen.  It is vacuum sealed in plastic and allowed to 'age' wet.  This provides more finished weight when the meat is actually sold.  The bursting of cells of frozen meat cause the meat to loose even more moisture (which could have been sold for $3 to $10 per lb) when thawed so they prefer not to freeze.

I often refreeze my meat mixture and haven't had a problem.  To save time I'll thaw enough food for 2 weeks, mix everything up, and then repackage in Ziploc bags in single serving portions.  I'll leave a couple of day's worth in the refrigerator and refreeze the rest.  Each day I just remove a package from the freezer and set it out to thaw for several hours before I eat.  The only difference I notice is that refrozen meat is a bit juicer after it thaws than unfrozen meat.

I also use this method when traveling for short durations of time - say 1 to 3 days.  I'll premix, refreeze in single portions sizes, and then pack the frozen meals in a small well insulated lunch cooler which I carry with me.  When I get to the hotel/motel I'll put it in the room refrigerator if there is one, but on occasion where there is no refrigerator, the meat is usually fine in the lunch cooler for 3 days or so before becoming too 'flavorful' for my liking.

On longer trips I take a few days worth of raw meat and then pack enough pemmican for the balance of the trip.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for that info, Lex. That certainly makes things easier. Sounds like the strong warnings not to refreeze meats are just more modern hysteria. Not surprising.

[rafonly]

"Once the animal is killed, the flesh starts to break down through enzyme and bacterial action."

here's a hypothetical scenario:
~ i order ground beef from slankers
~ the pieces of meat that will eventually get ground to fulfill my order are not frozen in the slaughterhouse
~ somehow the "fresh" beef carcass makes it to the hands of slankers butchers
~ the butchers cut & sort out the various primal cuts
~ some1 grinds the specific primal cuts that are used 4 ground beef
~ some1 vacuum seals the still "fresh" ground beef by weight
~ some1 puts the vacuum sealed packages in a freezer
~ some time later, some1 ships those packages to my address

question:
how would 1 compare the nutritional value in the above scenario w/ the following?

an alternative scenario:
~ i buy a local "fresh" primal cut of beef at a local meat mkt on the precise day it's delivered to this mkt
~ i dry age it in the coldest area of my fridge (short of freezing) for 0-6 days after rubbing it w/ 3 dried catalysts (black pepper, ginger, garlic)

it so happens that the local beef not only smells & tastes much better, to me, than its prefrozen counterpart; i also enjoy the following 2 bonuses:
~ all the pufa's & other goodies that are naturally hosted by the undamaged cell membranes, which are esp good for the brain, eyes, nervous system, etc.
~ none of the peroxidation that results from grinding & freezing > thawing

[dizzybee6]

what's AGEs?

[William]

what's AGEs?

Advanced Glycation Endproducts are formed in our bodies, wrongly, when a speck of sugar attaches to a speck of protein in the absence of a specific enzyme.

IIRC they cause those brown spots that old folks have on their skin, and they are said to be on all organs.
They are bad.

[carnivore]

Of course it decomposes.  What do you think those different stages are? Cells are not growing, dividing, and respiring during the aging process, they are breaking down and decomposing. The whole point of aging meat is for the meat to slowly decompose creating a more 'tender' and 'flavorful' product. This happens as enzymes and bacteria break down the tissue. In the common vernacular it is called rotting. Dry refrigeration just slows the procress and allows more control.

There is little difference between creating High Meat and Dry Aging except speed.

Lex

What is important is the taste of the meat, and the fact is that aged meat tastes generally much better than defrozen meat!
Our taste bud has the ability to sense nutrients (and its availability) in food. Defrozen meat losts a part of its nutrients because of the sudden damage of the cell membranes. Aging is as you say slower, and some nutrients are made more available during the process (thanks to the work of the enzymes), while probably others are lost. AGEs, protein degradation and bacterial proliferation are what makes the taste of the meat to change with time.
Instincto pretends that aged meat is easier to digest than fresh meat. I don't really see any difference for myself.
I don't know what is the best to eat fresh or aged?
But I find that aged meat tastier.

[RawZi]

The meat does not rot and decompose in a dry refrigerator. It just gently dries, and pass through different stages that can give some surprising tastes.
The only problem I can see with aged meat is the creation of AGEs. But the quantity is minimal, even after a few months.

    Do you have a scientific paper to show me that explains that?

[lex_rooker]

I don't know what is the best to eat fresh or aged?
But I find that aged meat tastier.

My comments were made to show the silliness of the argument that frozen meat is 'damaged' compared to meat that has never been frozen.  The truth is that freezing creates a mechanical damage by rupturing some of the cells through the freezing and expanding of the liquid in the cells, and meat that has never been frozen is in a continuous state of decomposition which damages the cells as well.  So you pays your money and you takes your choice.  I don't see much difference between the two from a damage/nutrition stand point.  I'm sure that a biochem lab could measure some differences but from a practical point of view it is a mute point.    

I also prefer meat that has gone slightly south.  I often let my meat sit in a warm place for 8 to 10 hours before eating it.  It will even take on a sour fermented taste on a warm summer day.  My guess is that well aged ('ripe') and decomposing meat made up the majority of our diets in paleo times.  I also expect we ate leftovers from kills made by other animals as well.  Since there were no processing plants, refrigerators, or freezers, most of what we ate would be in some stage of decomposition - and it would decompose rather rapidly during the warmer months.  Take a dog or cat that has been hit by a car.  During the summer months it becomes bloated within 24 hours, and the flesh has turned to liquid within 2 to 3 days.  Lunch! Yum!

The hysteria over bacteria and 'germs' is a modern phenomenon.  Our species did just fine without antibacterial detergents and sprays for millions of years.  The environmental bacteria gave us strong immune systems.  Today our children suffer from all sorts of problems created by our sanitized environments.

Lex

[rafonly]

"The hysteria over bacteria and 'germs' is a modern phenomenon. Our species did just fine without antibacterial detergents and sprays for millions of years. The environmental bacteria gave us strong immune systems. Today our children suffer from all sorts of problems created by our sanitized environments."

yes, yes!

when it comes to freezing, however: wouldn't freezing be just another way of sterilizing?

~ lex eats prefrozen meat -- which, incidentally, never gets frozen immediately after the animal is killed -- as a means to avoid eating rotten, dry aged, or high meat {*}

~ some people, including gedgaudas & the usda, recommend that the meat 1 is planning to eat raw should be kept frozen for 2 weeks to thoroughly kill all germs

* {thawed meat -- if brought back to the freezer in its unopened bag (as happens to unsold meat at a farmers mkt, which gets refrozen & taken to the next mkt) or if rebagged & refrozen at home -- is actually in a state of wet aging > it becomes the right culture environment for further peroxidation & age's}

[lex_rooker]

when it comes to freezing, however: wouldn't freezing be just another way of sterilizing?

~ some people, including gedgaudas & the usda, recommend that the meat 1 is planning to eat raw should be kept frozen for 2 weeks to thoroughly kill all germs

This is a common misunderstanding.  Most bacteria are not killed by freezing.  Some are killed by the same mechanical action of expanding ice crystals rupturing their cell walls, but just as only a small portion of the cells of meat are ruptured by freezing, so too only a small fraction of the bacteria are killed by this action.  Most bacteria just go into a state of suspended animation until the temperatures are warm enough for them to pick up where they left off and continue to grow and multiply.

Think about this.  A common medical procedure today is in vitro fertilization where both the egg and the sperm are frozen in liquid nitrogen for extended periods of time, then thawed and united to create new life.  The egg and sperm are both the equivalent of single cell entities. If freezing caused the damage to tissue and single cell organism like bacteria as claimed, then in vitro fertilization would not work.

Larger and more complex organisms like parasites ARE often killed by freezing.  The time frame I've read as safe is 6 weeks, not 2 weeks, but I suppose the 'experts' vary on this point and it probably depends on the temperature as well as the parasite involved.

Most enzyme action is drastically slowed or stopped at low temperatures, so freezing actually keeps the meat closer to the ‘fresh killed’ state than refrigeration alone.  Is this good or bad?  You’ll have to make your own call on that.

Lex

[William]

it becomes the right culture environment for further peroxidation & age's}

How do you reckon that it cultures Advanced Glycation Endproducts without glycation?

[carnivore]

    Do you have a scientific paper to show me that explains that?

AGEs creation in food is a normal and common process. We are adapted to the consumption of a small amount of AGEs that we can find in raw (fresh and aged) food. Indeed, we even have receptors for AGEs (called RAGEs).
Our ability to eliminate them is quickly overloaded with cooked food.

[William]

AGEs creation in food is a normal and common process.

It's my understanding that creation of AGEs requires addition of some kind of sugar to the food. No sugar, no glycation (glycation is from the word "glucose" AKA sugar).

There is no sugar in raw meat.

[carnivore]

http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/selection-and-storage-of-foods-part-i/does-freezing-harm-foods.html :

"When a food is frozen, its water expands. This causes two immediately destructive occurrences:

   1. The cell walls burst and the cell contents are spilled due to the internal water expansion; hence the cell's life is lost.
   2. Oxidation occurs where air reaches the frozen foodstuff; hence nutrients are lost.

In addition to bursting the cell walls of foods and thus allowing oxidation to occur, two other things happen:

   1. When the cells burst, certain of their organelles release self-destruct enzymes called lysosomes. While these enzymes are not active during freezing (and some are even destroyed), those which remain intact will speedily decompose the cell contents upon thawing. Lysosomes are in cells for the purpose of self-destructing dead cells so the dead cells will not create problems for the organism.
   2. Whether oxidized or deranged by its own lysosomes, dead cells become soil for bacteria and fungi when the temperature becomes favorable again—bacteria are active at just above freezing up to temperatures around 160 degrees.

Oxidation of burst cells is the foremost cause of food deterioration during frozen storage. Frozen foods never taste as good to an unperverted palate as their fresh counterparts, even if no additives and pre-freezing treatments are employed. This is, of course, due to their deterioration while frozen.

While microorganisms such as bacteria are also inert during freezing, they become active just as soon as they are thawed. Hence, frozen foods, once removed from the freezer, decompose much more rapidly than do fresh foods. As mentioned, this is because of the bursting of the cell walls of the food when its own water expands and because of the subsequent decomposition through oxidation, self-destruct lysosomes and the final cleanup crew, bacteria.

It is well to repeat that food is rapidly destroyed when cell walls are burst, whether by cooking, blending, juicing, mashing or freezing. Oxidation occurs when cell contents are exposed to the air, and if temperatures are favorable, the cells' own lysosomes self-destruct its components."

[rafonly]

"there's no sugar in raw meat"
???
there's glycogen in muscle

here's what my dictionary says about glycogen:
"a substance deposited in bodily tissues as a store of carbohydrates. It is a polysaccharide that forms glucose on hydrolysis."

glycogen > glucose

my dict says about hydrolysis:
"the chemical breakdown of a compound due to reaction with water"

wet aging > water > hydrolysis
thawing > water > hydrolysis

wet aging > fermentation
high meating > fermentation

there's general info on age's here:
http://andersonclan.us/andersonclan_top/ages.html

re. the freezing of meat, you need to read the following book excerpts (such as pp. 18-20, 43, 52-64 etc):
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=6ry7pDNNZ6gC&dq=%22freezing+effects+on+food%22&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=Hv4Do9pKs5&sig=4hMbzYDZlxlvrBGafOxx5pOiRI0&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result

the book title = freezing effects on food quality

its 1st article "fundamental aspects of the freezing process" explains in detail what the author calls "a loss of overall quality"
"meat is frequently frozen, not to produce a high-quality product, but for commercial or domestic expediency"(p.52)

the article on "red meats" says:
"the dominant preslaughter biological factor influencing meat quality is muscle glycogen ... the glucose content of fresh meat is the critical factor determining the relationship between microflora development & the time to spoilage" (p.55)

under "oxidation" {of red meat} (pp.60-1)
the author says:
"grinding of meat prior to freezing ... the myriad of cut surfaces, exposing lipid-containing cell membranes to air, ensures the initiation of oxidative rancidity"

[carnivore]

It's my understanding that creation of AGEs requires addition of some kind of sugar to the food. No sugar, no glycation (glycation is from the word "glucose" AKA sugar).

There is no sugar in raw meat.

Yes there is sugar in raw meat. Cooking meat creates much more AGEs than aging meat.