PaleoPhil's Journal

[PaleoPhil]

From a perspective of increasing your health, energy and vitality are you getting anything out of fruit? Or do you want to be able to eat them because you enjoy doing so even though they might not improve any of the above?

There are multiple reasons I've listed in the past. Some claim that fruits are crucial for health, so I'm putting those claims to the test, even some big advocates of meats/fish/animal fats say they eat 5% or so carbs, so I'm seeing if I do any better with a small amount of carbs and what the maximum I can handle is before symptoms kick in, I do enjoy the taste of fruits, so I'm seeing if I can manage to have a little fruit treat now and then without harm, I'm just plain curious, some grateful people are urging me to write a book and help others, so I'm trying to get both depth and breadth of knowledge of the subject in case I ever do, etc., etc. It's not just any one thing. I don't tend to think in terms of single answers and single inspirations. Nature seems to be a highly complex web of fractal components. We will never understand it completely or have all the answers, but that's part of what makes nature interesting and we shouldn't give up asking questions because of it.

Something I just realized recently is that the less stimulation we have the more our health seems to grow.

I think I know what you mean. I saw a documentary where there was a desert plant that manages to survive on occasional mists of moisture that ocean storms blow into the desert--despite years of no rainstorms. That plant can live to be over a thousand years old.

[TylerDurden]

I think I know what you mean. I saw a documentary where there was a desert plant that manages to survive on occasional mists of moisture that ocean storms blow into the desert--despite years of no rainstorms. That plant can live to be over a thousand years old.

Would that be the Rose of Jericho plant?

[PaleoPhil]

It's the Welwitschia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welwitschia, which actually apparently gets most of its water from dew--I may have misheard the audio of the documentary. At any rate, it gets by on very little water and grows very slowly and I think this helps account for its reportedly living in some cases more than 2 thousand years.

[PaleoPhil]

I'm trying not to sidetrack other people's journals, so I'll respond to the following posts here:

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/6-month-zero-carb-experiment/msg36960/#msg36960

When I was on RZC, my stools were extremely infrequent and very small. I didn't view it as constipation, though, just a sign of nearly complete digestion. I'm just thinking that you might have misinterpreted your results.

You raised this question before here: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/paleophil%27s-journal/msg31038/#msg31038. As I said before, what I'm talking about is #1-3 on the Bristol scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale that tend to be hard, difficult to move, dry and occasionally have some mucus (though much less of the latter than in times past). I wasn't judging it merely on frequency or smallness. My constipation was diagnosed early in life before I even understood what the word meant--probably before I could even speak, because I think my mother spoke of it occurring at times in my infancy. 2 of my 3 siblings had it at times as well. Our first physician prescribed an ineffective laxative. I didn't mind much that it didn't work because it had a nice chocolate flavor.

The Bristol scale is generally regarded as a better measure of constipation than frequency or size alone, since frequency and size can vary between individuals and says little about the overall nature of the stools. As my symptoms worsened over the years, my clinical diagnosis was eventually upgraded to IBS and I developed other negative effects of constipation as well that I'll spare people from having to read.

Senna is providing less and less benefit over time, as I expected might happen. This seems to be the case with any treatment I've tried, so I try not to use any one treatment too often, to avoid losing what little benefit it might offer. I try to do plenty of exercise, including morning exercise, and drink plenty of water. On the bright side, my inguinal partial hernia (the smooth muscle tissue was not torn, but it was extremely weak and would poke out and become quite painful and I would have to poke it back in, but it would pop out again) is greatly improved over what it had been and there is even some muscle tone there now, where before there was just a bulge sticking out.

Sidenote re: exercise: I seem to be in better shape now, as far as walking and climbing, than I was ten or twenty years ago and tend to leave others in the dust when walking/climbing. My balance is the best it's ever been. I can balance better on fallen trees in the woods now than I could as a youth.

I don't like the fact that senna is a legume whose anthraquinone derivatives and their glucosides, like all medicines, are mildly toxic. In addition to producing beneficial bowel effects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senna_%28genus%29#In_medicine), they can have side effects when used long term (such as potential exacerbation of my not yet resolved mild potassium deficiency; see also http://www.drugs.com/ppa/senna.html,
http://www.mdidea.com/products/new/new040research.html for more on side effects and toxicity).

Coincidentally, ActionHero also expressed doubt re: my constipation:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/6-month-zero-carb-experiment/msg36931/#msg36931

...I don't know how salty blood really is. I remember tasting my own blood sometimes after a cut and it tasted metallic like, never salty. There may be some blood in the ground beef I am buying but not very much. The little salt that was on the meat my mom prepared did cause the surface of my tongue to feel a bit sore so I'm not sure how much we really need. I can't imagine constipation on raw ZC, maybe it happens only on cooked ZC.

I don't know how much is in it either, but blood does at times taste salty to me and other people have reported that it contains it. I did have chronic constipation (based on the Bristol scale) on raw ZC and still have it on raw VLC (and adding some plant foods didn't help noticeably at all). For 2 or 3 weeks I did experience near remission of the problem on raw ZC, so that was the best diet yet for it for me, but the constipation worsened again while still on raw ZC and didn't resolve completely. I was hoping that I just had to get used to the reduced fecal volume, but based on Lex's experience I think I should have had some improvement again by now, so it seems to be more of an issue than just needing to adapt to reduced fecal volume. It was worse on past SAD, vegetarian and near-vegetarian diets, when it was a more severe problem of IBS-C with D.

Miles seemed to question the frequently reported phenomenon of greatly reduced hunger signals on raw ZC. Hunger is indeed a valuable survival signal, so it doesn't disappear completely, but my "hunger feelings" or whatever you want to call them are also less on ZC/VLC as compared to SAD. I do forget to eat at times and can lose too much weight from my already bony frame (I have visible rib, wrist and patella bones, for example) if I don't remember to eat and if I don't force myself to eat more than I would if had my druthers. I think it's probably partly due to something defective in my system, but partly also because LC/ZC and raw foods do produce less hunger pangs than SAD or even Paleo omnivore, as others report. In the past I found I could easily put on weight if I ate plenty of carbs, but it was nearly all body fat rather than muscle and it came with many other negatives like dry, flaky skin and scalp, painful cystic acne, poor sleep with nightmares, IBS C with D and numerous other symptoms I have detailed in the past. Over time, the carbs seemed so damaging to my gut that I appeared to be losing weight from them rather than gaining it. So overall I see the reduced hunger feelings as a natural, positive aspect of raw and ZC--especially for those who are overweight--rather than a negative. It just so happens that I came from a starting point of needing to gain weight rather than lose it. I have put on some more weight on raw VLC than I managed to on cooked Paleo omnivore, perhaps due to some healing of my gut, calming of the immune system and eating foods that are easier to digest.

As others have mentioned, raw ZC hunger is different than cooked carb hunger. Have you ever heard of the old saying of feeling hungry again an hour after eating Chinese takeout/restaurant food (which tends to include lots of rice)? That never happens to me while I'm eating raw ZC/VLC and the feeling I get when hungry ZCing is much different and less unpleasant than what I used to get when eating significant carbs. It's hard to explain. One thing I notice is that there is less grumbling and stomach pains--basically none that I've noticed if I don't stray at all from raw ZC and avoid even coffee.

Based on my experience, I think what KD probably meant when he discussed how some ZCers say they don't get hungry, is that in the course of their normal lives they don't get the hunger pangs they used to on their previous WOE. However, I don't speak for anyone else, so each person would have to be questioned to know for sure.


http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/6-month-zero-carb-experiment/msg36960/#msg36960

Start eating more fruit and I guarantee you your constipation will vanish.

Mango, oranges and pineapple are specially good. Apples, bananas (starchy fruit) not so great for constipation

Thanks for trying to help, ForTheHunt, but in the days when I was eating a lot of fruit I had a more severe case of IBS-C with D, felt like crap, was badly emaciated and seemed to be withering away and becoming increasingly ill to the point where some were concerned I would die (I looked like those emaciated male fruitarians you can see images of at fruitarian forums). Granted, I was eating some nightshades and squashes too, but as I increased fruit intake my problems worsened and as I reduced it they lessened (please no one ask me to list all my negative symptoms from fruit again--please refer to my journal if you're interested, thanks), so fruit also seemed to be a factor. Plus, eating fruit didn't noticeably help the constipation aspect of my IBS. So I hope you'll understand if I'm not thrilled by the prospect of heavy fruit intake, even though I love fruit and would gladly include a hell of a lot more of it in my diet if it didn't have such negative effects on me.

I do eat some raw fruit and on days I do I still notice no improvement in constipation, so I unfortunately can't say that my experience backs up your guarantee at this point. I was hoping that including some fruit and veg back in my diet might help but have not seen any positive results from it yet.

[PaleoPhil]

I’ll try to explain what I’m doing with these BG tests besides having fun. Dr. Kurt Harris and Tyler have suggested that the reason that people like Lex and me do better on no plant carbs or near-zero rather than 5-25% is because we are probably insulin resistant. Sounds like a reasonable hypothesis to me and one I’ve considered myself in the past (it wouldn’t be surprising, as my mother and uncle were both diagnosed with insulin resistance). Dr. Harris even called fruits “tree candy”. On the other hand, I’ve seen fruitarians claim that they can eat tons of fruit (like 30 bananas) all day without spiking their BG, and make claims about the healthy fiber in fruits offsetting any problems with sugars, or that fruit sugars are somehow perfectly benign for everyone, etc., and Actionhero even recently said right here in this forum that he eats raw honeycomb to get the “pure sugar” into his system and that he was able to “have 15 bananas for breakfast alone and NOT experience a crash afterwards” and FortheHunt said “I can eat massive amounts of fruit with out any problems what so ever” (lucky them ). Anyone who has read this forum for more than a brief stretch of time has seen other language singing the praises of raw fruits and raw honeycomb. While some people report thriving on them, others--even quite a few fruitarians I’ve seen as well as myself--don’t seem to thrive on them as much as we’d like. I started by testing raw honeycomb and now I’m testing berries. I seem to have more problems with them than most, though apparently not a lot of people here have actually tested their postprandial BG or gone off plant carbs entirely for long that I could compare numbers and experiences with, so it’s a little difficult to get a solid feel for the extent of the differences, but those that have done the latter and reported their experiences give me the impression that I handle raw fruits worse than avg--at least as compared with other RPDers.

These extremely different experiences and conflicting hypotheses have made me curious, so I’m putting them to the test to see how I compare and to see what proves true for me rather than just accept one or the other opinion. My guess is that there’s a good chance that I am insulin resistant, given BOTH my experience and my numbers. Heck, why should I be afraid of the numbers anyway? How is doing some BG testing going to hurt me? I think postprandial BG numbers are a useful addition to my experience and the fasting BG numbers my physicians have done and Dr. William Davis concurs:

“In the ongoing debate over what constitutes a healthy or unhealthy diet, the entire issue of postprandial patterns has been ignored. Yet much of heart disease develops IN THE POSTPRANDIAL PERIOD.” http://HTTP://HEARTSCANBLOG.BLOGSPOT.COM/2010/01/GRETCHENS-POSTPRANDIAL-DIET-EXPERIMENT.HTML?SHOWCOMMENT=1262559338074#C2684603478768420817
“High postprandial glucose values are a coronary risk factor. While conventional guidelines say that a postprandial glucose (i.e., during OGTT) of 140 mg/dl or greater is a concern, coronary risk starts well below this. Risk is increased approximately 50% at 126 mg/dl. Risk may begin with postprandial glucoses as low as 100 mg/dl.

For this reason, postprandial (not OGTT) glucose checks are becoming an integral part of the Track Your Plaque program. We encourage postprandial blood glucose checks, followed by efforts to reduce postprandial glucose if they are high.” http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/blood-sugar-fasting-vs-postprandial.html

Besides, like always I’m also monitoring my experience, not just the BG numbers. The extent of the nausea and reflux after eating the strawberries was also somewhat of a surprise to me, but given that my BG rose to 279, it’s now more understandable. Strawberries apparently have enough sugar and acid in them to give me some issues if I eat too much of them—more so than I expected. I was planning on testing them at lower amounts too and liked the idea of a 3hour test as well that YS suggested. Love the enthusiasm for science YS showed for a bit there.

I found that just going solely by how I feel or just by the fasting BG numbers the docs and nurses took has been misleading at times in the past, whereas adding postprandial BG and urinary specific gravity tests has given me a fuller picture of what’s going on. I’ve seen many fruitarians claim they thrive on fruits, only to discover years later (after many “healthful detoxes”) that blood tests reveal them to be dangerously deficient in certain nutrients and to have other indicators of severe health problems. Check out Paul Nisson on this as just one example of a former extreme fruitarian who discovered this. It may be dangerous to rely only on one’s own perceptions—just as it may also be dangerous to ignore one’s own experiences and instincts. I take advantage of all the important info—useful tests, my own experience and the experiences of others, and my instincts, and I try to inform it all with science to the best of my limited understanding.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/paleophil%27s-journal/msg36417/#msg36417

Isn't it normal for BG to spike every time you eat anything loaded with sucrose/glucose?

Sure, but apparently not as much as mine did, if the other data I found online is any indicator, and I was testing the claim of AV and others that raw honey doesn't spike BG at all because of unnamed enzymes it contains. Even though it was comb-honey made right in the container by the bees, which is even less processed than AV's hand-packed honey, it not only spiked my BG, it sent it into a range that's considered excessive even for diabetics. That can't be good for anyone, can it? If so, how and why?

I would love it as much as anyone if by some miracle AV had turned out to be right in my case. Who wouldn't want to be able to eat raw honey without any negative effects? I think my results reveal the danger of accepting claims and advising other people to eat things like raw honey without first testing the claims. Imagine what it could do to a diabetic. Too often I've seen people point to some guru’s claims as if his opinion alone was strong supporting evidence or even proof. This is something that Tyler has tried to discourage. I hope I can also contribute a healthy dose of skepticism.

[PaleoPhil]

A recent comment about the power of positive thinking on IBS in one individual who claimed a cure from it reminded me of some very positive people who were not cured by positive thinking, through no fault of their own. This isn't directly related to the original post, so I don't intend it to be a direct reply to that. It just got me thinking about the subject and brought back memories and thus I'm posting it here instead. Positive thinking, meditation and other forms of mind-body medicine can certainly help, but we should be careful not to blame people if it doesn’t work for them and wouldn’t shouldn’t let it stop us from also eating well, exercising, getting sunlight, etc. We should also be careful to try to get our diet right for our individual needs, because what the “experts” have told us about diet (such as “eat lots of healthy whole grains”, “avoid artery-clogging saturated fat”, etc.) may not be right for all of us. A friend of mine who was one of the most positive people I've ever met had a very remarkable recovery from cancer after undergoing a fairly novel surgery. She had many positive mantras. She included many of them in her book that she had me review pre-publication for her. Some of them were:

I will make it through.
Repeat that you will do your best and leave the rest to God
I am whole, healthy and healed.
I embrace the mystery of each new dawn.
My immune system is getting stronger every day. My immune system is powerful and can fight off colds, flu, and diseases. I love my immune system.
I surrender to the flow of life.
I will live a long and healthy life.
Learn to deflect the stress rather than absorb it.

She was a big advocate of "veggie overdosing" and thought that veggies plus positivity and other factors might have cured her cancer and spread the word about her experience through her book and speeches. Unfortunately, her cancer returned and she died at a young age while she still had so much she wanted to do to help the world.

She had also taught her tips to my good friend and roommate of the time when he got leukemia. I noticed that he became more peaceful and accepting from her teachings. Like her, he had some short-term improvements but also died. However, their brief improvements using natural approaches and their examples helped motivate me further to get to the bottom of my own health issues and possibly help others as they had tried to.

I tried the approaches of my friends but didn’t get any noticeable health benefits from them, but their inspiration to search did lead me to find Eaton and Cordain’s writings on the Paleo diet, and then further on to raw Paleo, which did more to heal my acne, dry skin, anxiety, pre-hernia, nightmares, IBS C with D, periodontal disease, etc., than anything else I had tried.

So the lesson seems to be that positive thinking and mind-body medicine can help—at least in making life more enjoyable, and probably other ways (besides, chronic worry and stress only make matters worse, as I learned from my father and Dale Carnegie)—but we shouldn’t rely on it alone, nor on standard USDA or vegetarian dogmas regarding diet and lifestyle. A multifaceted holistic approach that also includes nutrition informed by evolutionary biology and other aspects of ancestral lifestyle has worked better for me and my friends and relatives and appears to be more promising overall.

[klowcarb]

I will always support you, my friend. But I continue to be baffled by your justifications for wanting to eat fruit. For social reasons? Don't you think a 29 year old woman of my looks and intelligence (vain, I know) would have more a "necessary" social reason to eat off plan? Yet I never do. I also don't believe fruits have any magical properties. They are mostly sugar with vitamin C and potassium attached. I think Dr. Harris is right when he says organs are vital, fruits and vegetables are not.

If you WANT to eat fruits just because you want to, go ahead. But trying to justify a "need" to eat them seems a stretch, particularly when ZC is such a fantastic WOE. No constant hunger, all foods have maximum nutrition, the slimming benefits, the taste of delicious fatty meat, etc. There is variety as one wishes or doesn't wish, and nutrition abundance.

As for not wanting to lose weight, I do not understand why you just don't force yourself to eat more, especially raw fat. You know how active I am. I did a fasted 2.5 hour hike today and have not yet eaten. You know I do lots of free weights and cables and bodyweight exercises. I make myself eat once a day, and I set the calories myself in my tracker and eat what I plan, hungry or not (often not much). Yes, I have forced myself to eat before to get in the calories? My reward? Muscle building and lowered body fat. My weight remains stable and my lifts are going up and my endurance for hiking is improving. All while eating raw meats, some cooked eggs and seared organs. No fruit, no vegetables, and I feel and look healthy.

You know I hope this does not come out rude. You know how I feel about ZC. I was a very unhappy vegetarian. I have no desire to ever eat vegetables or fruit again, let alone grains. I am getting everything I need.

[klowcarb]

I do feel badly about your chronic constipation, but that may be something that diet cannot fix. Adding fruit for fiber seems to be just adding more negatives than positives, in my opinion (the sugar, the fibers taking nutrients from the body, etc.).  I wish I knew how to help you. But whatever you decide to do I stand by you, but I wish you would not struggle internally with raw ZC/VLC. If this is the best WOE you have experienced, as you say, why make these other changes? Why not provide the world some examples of raw ZC/VLCers who thrive on this WOE and make it work for them, instead of bowing to social pressures and doubts?

 

[PaleoPhil]

I will always support you, my friend. But I continue to be baffled by your justifications for wanting to eat fruit. For social reasons?

Yes, I know Katelyn. Thanks again for your concern. Social reasons are just one of many reasons, as I mentioned.

I think Dr. Harris is right when he says organs are vital, fruits and vegetables are not.

He could be. He even calls fruit "tree candy." I've been putting that hypothesis to the test and so far my experience appears to match his claim pretty well, though my experience doesn't necessarily apply to anyone else.

[quote[If you WANT to eat fruits just because you want to, go ahead.[/quote]Yes, that's another of the reasons.

But trying to justify a "need" to eat them seems a stretch

I don't feel a "need" to justify eating fruits--just trying to be polite in responding to the questions of why do it and simple curiosity is driving my experiment more than needs. It does make life easier to expand the diet a little, but, as I've said before, if it appears to threaten my health then I won't continue the experiment. The need seems to be more with other people's need to know why I'm doing it, which I'm fascinated by. It's interesting how much ruckus doing a fruit experiment or saying anything too positive or too negative about fruits stirs up. Fruits seem to inspire rather strong feelings and debates.

As for not wanting to lose weight, I do not understand why you just don't force yourself to eat more, especially raw fat.

Yes, I'm doing that too. Maybe you're not familiar with Lex's period he hit where he got bored of his ZC mix and apparently lost quite a bit of weight?

[quoteAll while eating raw meats, some cooked eggs and seared organs. No fruit, no vegetables, and I feel and look healthy.[/quote]Glad to hear of your success, Katelyn.

You know I hope this does not come out rude. You know how I feel about ZC. I was a very unhappy vegetarian. ....

Yeah, I have no desire to try vegetarianism again. I quickly found out that I did very poorly on that WOE, though it didn't occur to me to try carnivory until years later. You and the proponents of omnivory are like the angel and devil on my shoulders. Of course, both sides see themselves as the angel who is right. I'm testing the claims of both sides. Your side does seem to be winning, though there are still questions and apparent exceptions. I seem to be able to handle kelp and young greens OK, for example. I don't care for eating them alone, but I do like them in my mouth when eating bloody raw or fat-dripping cooked meats, for some reason. With the kelp I think it's in part because I have a little bit of taste for salt again, so it's like spicing the meat, and it adds a little texture variety. Coincidentally, chimps put greens in their mouths when eating meats too. I may also have acquired this preference from eating burgers with lettuce leaves instead of buns. This experiment has actually served your case pretty well, because I'm finding out that my BG appears to react more strongly to fruits and honey comb than I expected. Still, the other side could argue that if I again cut out carbs completely that more of my carb-eating flora will die off and I will become even more sensitive to carbs.

[ys]

I like to ask lots of questions. and maintain an attitude of basically questioning everything, because it's one of the ways I've learned a lot, though not everyone likes answering a lot of questions, of course, so I hope you don't mind mine.

not at all, in fact I like your persistence digging through it.  i'm sure if you had enough money and time you would do your own research with your own hired test subjects and have definite unbiased numbers in everything you can think of like BG, poop, other blood tests, etc.

unfortunately, we live in reality.  in my quest of gaining weight Lex's story impressed me with its simplicity and because it works. 

another unfortunate thing is there are only handful of us hard gainers here, and going further you are probably the only one with your set of conditions.  because of that i tend to ignore what others are claiming simply because it does not apply to me.  their conditions and bodies are very different from mine and yours.  there are too few of our kind here and that makes it difficult to share experience.

another thing i like what you are doing is you don't seem to take dubious answers like the one that was given numerous times here.  when asked about some negative side effects i've seen others reply that it is simply "detox".  to me this is pretty worthless claim, but it is very convenient to claim.  first, it gives somewhat logical explanation (baseless but there is some logic to it). second, it conforms to ones way of eating so there is no digression here.  i see some are really buying it.
 
and another unfortunate thing, most of the knowledge here revolves around "i heard this, i heard that, AV said this, curezone said that, i did this and it worked for me so it must work for you", all with no substance to back it up.  this forum needs more numbers, more success stories in pictures and videos.  i feel like i'm drowning in this sea of claims and speculations and it takes effort for my mind to filter out lots of garbage.

back to gaining weight. in my very personal opinion i think loading inefficient digestive system with more food is counter productive.  i found out that less is indeed more.  it took long time (9 months) but i believe my digestion has recovered somewhat.  if i skip a meal because i did not feel like eating i do not loose weight as before.

and speaking of power of positive thinking, i believe it is the real thing.  it is called placebo effect.  it is called effect because it works.  the same goes for all negative thinking. it makes it worse.  classic example is stress.  everyone knows how stress negatively affects our health, and stress is nothing more than a product of our mind. can't sleep at night? i guess it is not because life is beautiful, it is because we are thinking about stupid things that we think are more important than our health.  sounds simple but it is not.  it takes lots practice not to think about all that garbage.  and i believe it works.

[TylerDurden]

The large number of vague reports re RVAF diets has been very useful for most here. After all, people only take them seriously once the reports are very frequent(such as claims that raw dairy is harmful etc.)

As for photos and videos, they can be a bit deceptive at times. I remember some of my old photos, pre-RPD diet making me seem quite healthy whereas I was actually in great pain.

Re detox:- There is some evidence re detox existing. Naturally, some might mistakenly cite "detox" as a cause when something else is at fault, but that['s just standard human error.

[ys]

There is some evidence re detox existing

yes, i agree that there is some kind of evidence.  but the same thing is said about existence of aliens.  that does not prove nor disprove anything.  with such little information it goes into "belief" category.  you either believe in it or you don't.  for someone like PaleoPhil who is looking for hard evidence, this kind of answer is not enough.  that was the point i tried to make.

[ys]

As for photos and videos, they can be a bit deceptive at times. I remember some of my old photos, pre-RPD diet making me seem quite healthy whereas I was actually in great pain.

that's your opinion based on your personal experience.  and that's ok.
it's just in my opinion healthy body should either look better than average and/or can perform better than average.

and just one picture (or video) speaks louder than 100 claims.  again, this is my personal opinion.

[TylerDurden]

Well, there is a useful definition of a genuine detox, that is that a genuine detox is one which affects one to a minor or moderate extent and lasts only a short time with one feeling slightly better afterwards than before. More to the point, there is hard scientific evidence that the less toxin-rich foods one ingests the better one is able to get rid of one's toxin-load(I'm thinking of those studies which showed that not eating AGE-rich foods(high in heat-created toxins) helped to lower the resulting amounts of AGEs within the body. So, clearly the body does have some sort of detox mechanism(if it didn't, we'd all die just from mild poisons).

As for photos, too many people pose artificially for them, showing their best side or covering their worst parts with clothes or whatever, and that's not counting issues such as lighting etc.. So, they are a very poor indication of real health.

[ys]

that is that a genuine detox is one which affects one to a minor or moderate extent and lasts only a short time with one feeling slightly better afterwards than before

i would not know it since i never experienced it, hence my questioning. i live in industrial environment so i would think i would be loaded with toxins.
let's leave detox subject alone for now.  if PaleoPhil wants to take on it that's fine.  it's his journal after all.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks, YS. Like you I prefer hard data, though not quite to the extent that you implied--perhaps you were exaggerating for humorous effect?

I'm also a fan of Lex's journal--it's what brought me here originally--and I also eat much like him, with some more variety. Maybe we agree more than you thought?

Katelyn, thanks again for your concern and I understand where you're coming from, but I'll be fine and won't risk major health damage while I figure out what works for me. It's useful to have strong advocates here of both ZC like you and omnivore like Tyler. I get to see both perspectives this way.

[klowcarb]

Katelyn, thanks again for your concern and I understand where you're coming from, but I'll be fine and won't risk major health damage while I figure out what works for me. It's useful to have strong advocates here of both ZC like you and omnivore like Tyler. I get to see both perspectives this way.

Hey, you know I'm here for you!  You are one of the smartest, kindest and well-reasoned individuals I know. I love reading your journey.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks Katelyn! Cool runnings!

[PaleoPhil]

Looks like I missed replying to this earlier post at http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/explain-instincto-diet-fully/msg37600/#msg37600

For sure, we are all different and we all have a body messed up in some way ! Results of years of cooked food don't disappear straight away miraculously without leaving long-lasting damages.

Yup

Even if we are already thin at the start, we may initially loose some more weight, but after a while (maybe a year) we regain what has been lost and perhaps even more until we reach a normal weight.

I gained weight early on via RPD, though I do start losing again if I don't make a conscious effort to eat hearty and I have lost some weight again since I started experimenting again with raw fruits and raw honey and people are getting concerned again with my weight. I think it has had more to do with being rather busy lately and forgetting to eat or running out of time to eat the necessary amount of food to maintain my weight than with the fruits.

By forcing yourself to eat more than you instinctively would, you get into a vicious circle of overload in some nutrient your body cannot use at the moment and you may feel therefore less and less hungry.

Haven't experienced that, but thanks for the warning.

It's also very important when switching to raw food to have enough choice so that you can find what your body needs the most for the time being and to avoid overfeeding on some unneeded nutrients.

Yes, I expanded my choices beyond what Lex eats in part because of this.

Nothing that could be found in the nature should be excluded a priori for theoretical or idealistic reasons.

Yes, that would be anathema to me. I do what works for me.

Of course it's not perfect since we are in interaction with our environment and we live in a more or less spoiled situation.  But still sufficient as long as we avoid processed food, dairy, grain and also as long as the foodstuff we may need is available.

In my case I haven't found it sufficient, but this may be due largely to my damaged gut and flora.

Animals in captivity are often fed unsuitable or processed food and therefore their instinct is somehow fooled.

Correct. However, instincts do not always lead to 100% "optimal" behaviors even in the wild in the sense of what modern humans think of as health optimization. To anthropomorphize: Nature is not "concerned" with optimizing health into old age--it generally just works to ensure the sexual reproduction of species and some species even naturally die out as Nature changes, for Nature is not concerned with ensuring the survival of one single species--so it doesn't always work in what we see as our best interests. We have a different perspective than Nature's. We want to ensure the survival and health optimization of the human species well into old age-especially ourselves as individuals, and even at the expense of countless other species. I am more Instincto than probably 99+% of the human race. I just don't find that it applies 100% perfectly in all cases for me. I find I also need to think consciously about what I'm doing too (such as eating enough food and drinking enough water) in some cases. I think it's important for people like me to share these exceptions to the reported rules so that others in the same boat don't rely solely on instinct and possibly risk their health. It's not meant as a criticism of the basic principles of Instincto.

[klowcarb]

Ignore the people concerned about your weight. They are chubby and diseased SAD eaters. I am 17.5 on the BMI, yet I have 13-15% bodyfat year round, with the rest LBM. I believe paleo man and women would have had BMIs below what is considered "normal" today. I would hate to look like a normal American woman. Gross!  I know you look so much better than most American men, Phil. 

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks Katelyn, but there are some good reasons for me to try to follow their advice and eat hearty. Plentiful calories--especially fat calories--apparently stimulate the thyroid, provide necessary fats for the health of the adrenal glands, and promote testosterone (http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/5/17/diseases-of-civilization-hair-loss.html). These are all areas I might need help in, based on symptoms and current physique.

I've been avoiding carbs more completely and upping my fat levels again and am amazed at the positive results. It's surprising how much negative effect just eating a little bit of carbs from local, organic raw berries and grapes one or two times a week and letting fat intake drop just a little can have. There is much less dry skin on my face and scalp, my mouth and teeth aren't coated with the layer of scum I get overnight from eating organic raw fruits, my hair loss is slightly reduced, and I feel improved. It's not that I felt sick while allowing myself a little fruit, it's just that I didn't get quite as optimal a feeling. It's hard to describe. I missed that mild sense of well being, though I get less of it than I did early on.

The problem is that just raw meat and fat are starting to get boring for me, and I lose weight easily. So I will try to find other ways to keep my interest in food and my calories up than raw organic fruits. I will try to limit my treats to special meats/seafood except for rare occasions. I seem to manage greens and kelp OK, though, and iodine is important for the thyroid, so I will keep eating those.

[ys]

as soon as i cut down on fruits about 3 months ago i starting seeing much better progress.
i had no idea sugar was so addictive.  before i had to have at least 2 sweet fruits a day.  now i care less about sweets.

[klowcarb]

I've been avoiding carbs more completely and upping my fat levels again and am amazed at the positive results. It's surprising how much negative effect just eating a little bit of carbs from local, organic raw berries and grapes one or two times a week and letting fat intake drop just a little can have. There is much less dry skin on my face and scalp, my mouth and teeth aren't coated with the layer of scum I get overnight from eating organic raw fruits, my hair loss is slightly reduced, and I feel improved. It's not that I felt sick while allowing myself a little fruit, it's just that I didn't get quite as optimal a feeling. It's hard to describe. I missed that mild sense of well being, though I get less of it than I did early on.

I am smiling at this! I always knew you just wanted fruit for flavor and didn't believe it had any nutritional value. This way of eating just meat, eggs and fat is easy for me and I never get bored of it! I have been eating a little more variety now, though, adding in some pork and lamb. How varied are your meats, Phil?

[klowcarb]

Would you consider eating some lightly cooked meat (which I don't think "kills" the nutrients) for some flavor and appetite over trying to get nutrition from plant food and tree candy? 

[PaleoPhil]

Yeah, I sometimes eat duck bacon, which is likely heated. Even though producers call the process "cold smoking," it can involve heating the bacon up to 150 degrees, which is still considered uncooked but would not be considered raw by many people here. I also occasionally eat cooked bunless bison patties at work. Any fish below sushi/sashimi quality I tend to cook to make it more palatable and easier to chew. Some fish is rather tough raw but becomes so soft and flaky when cooked that it literally falls apart at the touch.

I spice my meat if I get bored of it plain. I do eat some other types of meats than beef, but unfortunately all other types of pastured meats are more expensive than beef at my market.