PaleoPhil's Journal

[PaleoPhil]

Hi Phil,

Of course I did not mean coconut oil, but coconuts.

Yes, I know you meant coconuts, Hanna, thanks. Coconut water makes me nauseous and I don't like the idea of just throwing it out so as to eat the coconut meat, which I seem to handle relatively well, although I suppose I could try diluting it with water. Plus coconuts have to be shipped quite a distance (think less fresh and use of fossil fuels) and I also find it a hassle to have to open coconuts and separate the meat from the pith, so I don't think I'll ever make them a staple food, though I occasionally buy one (about once a year). It was my idea to try coconut oil again, because I can eat a tiny amount at a time, it preserves well and it provides another fat option. Fats are important to my diet because I don't eat much carbs. I doubt that I'll make coconut oil a regular part of my diet, though, for some of the above and other reasons (like expense--animal fats are much cheaper).

Interestingly, I was curious as to whether adding Maine wild blueberries, which I seem to handle better than any other fruit, to coconut oil might make coconut oil more digestible for me, as some sugars seem to settle my stomach. So today I made a sort of akutaq (Yupik word meaning "mix them together" that refers to soft and/or liquid fats mixed with meat, fish and/or berries) with lard, coconut oil, a little lemon fish oil, and some Maine wild blueberries. It seemed to work even better than I expected. I was able to eat much more coconut oil this way than I normally can, and didn't experience any of the usual nausea.

And just a warning to prevent another disaster: Cassia fistula can cause abdominal pain, even if eaten instinctively.

Thanks for the warning, that might explain why I've never seen anyone recommend it outside of Instinctos.

I would not eat it regularly, because it is rich in anthraquinones, which are carcinogenic and otherwise detrimental.

Yes, anthraquinones is apparently the specific type of quinones in cassia fistula, if I understand what I read on it. I thought about using that term, but didn't want to possibly complicate things by using a different term than Alphagruis used. I didn't know that a carcinogenic link had already been found. Do you have any sources you can refer me to, as I couldn't find any on long-term side effects of cassia fistula consumption?

Fruits like papaya are very easily digestible and contain almost no acid.

Yeah, and papaya seem low in sugar and I seem to handle them better than most fruit. One problem is they are one of the few fruits that taste bad to me. However, if it works for me like a laxative, then I would eat it. It hasn't in the past, but maybe I didn't eat enough. It's worth another try.

All citrus is off my list except as a limited flavoring. Ideally, any fruit I eat should:

- not give me significant negative symptoms (not spike my BG, not digest poorly, not produce white scum on my teeth, not give me acne breakouts and dry skin, etc.)
- be grown locally and be fresh and organic
- taste good to me
- preferably be an old species, particularly wild, that hasn't been hybridized a lot

Wild Maine blueberries and wild tart local berries are the only fruits that come close to fitting all these bills so far, and even with these I have to limit how much I eat at a time (though eating them with fat seems to increase by a little bit how much I can handle--despite how others say eating fats with fruits makes things worse for them). I seem to handle black and red grapes OK too, but I think it's mainly because I limit them to a handful or so, and they don't fit as many of the above ideal characteristics.

[PaleoPhil]

The more I think about papaya, the more it makes sense to me to try it again. The fact that it tastes mediocre to me will keep me from binging on it, the low sugar aspect should minimize side effects and the high fiber may help my bowels, with luck. I'll try to remember to buy some next time I'm at the market. Thanks for the suggestion, Hanna. Are there any temperate fruits that act like a laxative and aren't sugary and low in antinutrients? I'd like to buy fresh local if I can.

[klowcarb]

but I certainly don't seem to handle fruits well. For me, despite being a fruit lover and hoping they would work for me, fruits do generally seem to have the effect of tree candy, and if that pisses off some of my fellow fruit lovers, too bad.

When I was a vegetarian, I loved fruits and vegetables. Now they mean nothing to me. You get over it. At least, looking at my body in the mirror now, I don't miss low calorie, high fiber, low nutrition foods.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for the info from http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-anthraquinone.htm, Hanna. I was already seeking alternatives to senna, as I knew it was a legume and that it contains toxic anthraquinone, and this adds further impetus to my search (as for cassia fistula, other folks are of course free to eat it if they wish, but like all legumes I'm skeptical of it and I don't even recall seeing this fruit for sale anywhere, so it is rather irrelevant to me). I was also aware that when the body rapidly expels something that has been ingested that there is often a good reason for this and the body may be telling us that this is not something we should eat regularly. While senna may be OK to use acutely on occasion, I would rather not use it semi-regularly.

Based on what you're telling me Hanna, it looks like anthraquinone may be more toxic than I realized. It's rather startling that it has been banned in Germany. This reminds me of a Px laxative that I was assured by my American gastroenterologist was safe to use daily, then I developed a chronic mineral deficiency and researched it and found that it had been banned in Europe unless electrolyte minerals were added (which American pharmaceutical companies insisted was unnecessary). I've also noticed that Europe seemed to develop some awareness of the dangers of gluten before the USA. So I take European bans seriously and don't just dismiss them as overcautiousness, as some Americans seem to.

Thanks also to Alphagruis for your links. This is an interesting quote from the first one: "every species of plant analyzed contains its own set of perhaps a few dozen toxins". Of course, some people prefer to call them phytonutrients and claim that they are cure-alls. The debate over which plants are safe to eat, in what quantities, at what stages in their development, with what processing, how much we have adapted to various natural pesticides/phytonutrients, etc. will likely rage on long after I'm dead and gone.

So I certainly agree that we have to be careful and cassia for instance should certainly not be ingested routinely, whether "instinctively" or not (as instinctos often do to get rid of their more or less systematic fruit or avocado overeating.)

Correct. Senna and high-dose Mg work semi-OK for me as acute remedies, and they are the most effective acute remedies I've tried so far, but I mainly need a solution for chronic symptoms--preferably one that is natural and low in toxicity, such as food(s) that can be eaten daily or near-daily. Plus, since senna sometimes has some unpleasant effects in me even when used just once and since Mg doesn't tend to work as well as senna unless I increase the dosage to very high levels and risk overdose, I secondarily also look at possible alternative acute treatments (such as my recent failed vitamin C experiment).

[alphagruis]

Thanks also to Alphagruis for your links. This is an interesting quote from the first one: "every species of plant analyzed contains its own set of perhaps a few dozen toxins". Of course, some people prefer to call them phytonutrients and claim that they are cure-alls. The debate over which plants are safe to eat, in what quantities, at what stages in their development, with what processing, how much we have adapted to various natural pesticides/phytonutrients, etc. will likely rage on long after I'm dead and gone.

It's fairly clear that upon eating plants, and even to a lesser extent food of animal origin since animals must ultimately feed on plants and are susceptible to and actually do store plant toxins in their organisms, there is always a trade off. On the one hand vital nutrients are obtained but on the other hand more or less toxic molecules are ingested too. Depending on a huge number of things the overall result is either beneficial or detrimental. In particular this is actually the basis of equilibrium in natural ecosystems since it limits predation, predator populations and thus plant and in turn subsequent animal irreversible extinction.

So it is clearly impossible to ingest food without any "toxins". Depending on plant and animal species and their present condition such as stress, animal health and ability to detox etc etc more or less plant matter can be ingested and taken advantage of.
This should also be clearly realised and then kept in mind by some "raw food ayatollahs" when one considers the detrimental effects of the toxins generated by cooking. The same basic truth holds in this case too even if cooking increases unnecessarily and in some form tremendously the amount of toxins in food.  One cannot seriously, as the instincto guru in his recent post in this thread, on the one hand claim that natural chemicals proven to be toxic when ingested in pure form become miraculously harmless when ingested in a given whole natural food and on the other hand argue on exactly the same analytic and reductionnist level that heat generated molecules proven to be toxic when ingested in pure form such as AGEs or nitrosamines make cooked food so toxic as to definitely discard them from diet.

 It is at odds with the facts and thus ridiculous to simply demonize cooked food on the one hand and idolize raw food on the other hand because the former would be definitely "toxic" whereas raw food would be definitely devoid of "toxicity". Cooked food is just usually more "toxic" than raw food.    

So in your case, PaleoPhil I would not definitively discard plant foods such as cassia or senna . I agree with you that the laxative properties are most likely a clear sign of the presence of toxic molecules but the overall result of its intake may be nevertheless temporarily very beneficial if it permits to get rid of many other toxins retained or permanently developed in colon due to constipation. I suggest you experiment with it cautiously.    

[alphagruis]

Is it true that Ames found or claimed citric acid to be cancerogenic? Gcb, was this a write error?

I remember instinctive eater´s recommendation to force the cassia intake and to eat as much cassia as possible (i. e. up to the instinctive stop), even if one does not really like the cassia. So this is (or was) not originally your recommendation, gcb?


Alpha, these two articles seem to be very exciting - thanks!

You're wellcome Hanna.

BTW, thanks too for your remarks, excellent as usual.

[PaleoPhil]

...So it is clearly impossible to ingest food without any "toxins".

Sure, but there are clearly also significant differences in levels of toxins and in human's evolved enzyme ability to break down the toxins. If we didn't believe that we wouldn't bother to eat Paleo and avoid the more toxic foods like grains and legumes--instead we would basically just eat whatever we liked the taste of.

Depending on plant and animal species and their present condition such as stress, animal health and ability to detox etc etc more or less plant matter can be ingested and taken advantage of.

Yes, and I think genetics and epigenetics play a role also. My whole clan on both sides of the family seem particularly susceptible to the diseases of civilization from eating SAD or vegetarian diets and multiple physical features run in my family's genes that are associated with ancestral hunter peoples.

This should also be clearly realised and then kept in mind by some "raw food ayatollahs" ....

I know your position on "natural nutrition", Alphagruis, and some of your criticisms of it do appear plausible, but I'd rather not have a lengthy debate between you and GCB dominate my thread, if you don't mind.

So in your case, PaleoPhil I would not definitively discard plant foods such as cassia or senna . I agree with you that the laxative properties are most likely a clear sign of the presence of toxic molecules but the overall result of its intake may be nevertheless temporarily very beneficial

Yes, temporarily. Like I said, I'm using senna but probably too much if anything. I'd like to reduce my use to occasional temporary use. Even if it weren't toxic, it seems with me that the effectiveness decreases the longer it's used.

[alphagruis]

I know your position on "natural nutrition", Alphagruis, and some of your criticisms of it do appear plausible, but I'd rather not have a lengthy debate between you and GCB dominate my thread, if you don't mind.

No problem PaleoPhil. There won't be any debate between GCB and me, neither here nor elsewhere.

[Cinna]

LOL, I'd like to blame it on all the talk about sweet, juicy fruits at this forum, but I know it's up to me to try to block that out and resist. There's less temptation at the Dirty Carnivore forum and they're a better influence on me, but there's still some more I'd like to learn here too about the raw and Paleo aspects of my diet.

We love that you're here - please stay as long as possible.

It took me years to get over the social embarrassment of talking about it and I finally started asking about it when I tried various things and nothing worked and I was getting fed up with it. There seems to be this widespread feeling that most people who have chronic constipation don't really, so that people like me who really do have it have to answer all sorts of questions. The Bristol stool scale is a big help, because it's a single standard that nearly everyone can agree on and easily understand. Unfortunately, it means looking at images of poop, but it's the best way I've found to explain it.

I first heard about the Bristol Stool Scale here, in your journal. It actually makes me so happy that something like this exists - that people took the time to create this scale.   I emailed the link to my sis straight away because I felt that she too should know about the Scale's existence. I appreciate when people talk about poop because it's something that everybody (more or less) does, it's something we all have in common, and it's interesting.   Thanks so much for your candidness and thorough reporting/posting.

I hope you're feeling all better from your ascorbic experience. I actually adore papaya, but I don't really buy/eat it here in the states because it's all GMO (unless organic). My sis hates papaya, but I wonder if it's a taste that can be acquired... I wish you the best though. (I'm sure starchy, cooked winter squashes are out of the question, nevermind out of season... might work for some other people.)

[alphagruis]

Sure, but there are clearly also significant differences in levels of toxins and in human's evolved enzyme ability to break down the toxins. If we didn't believe that we wouldn't bother to eat Paleo and avoid the more toxic foods like grains and legumes--instead we would basically just eat whatever we liked the taste of.

I agree of course. It's certainly ever been the struggle of animals to avoid as much as possible the detrimental effects of plant poisons and adapt to ever evolving plant defenses. Different strategies have been, from an evolutionnary point of view, involved in this respect ranging from developing new means of detoxification at molecular level to merely adopting carnivorism or in "big brain" humans selecting their foods according to some scientific knowledge such as in our RP diet. Raw Paleo is certainly one way to drastically limit toxins intake and another one is obviously merely to eat the minimal quantity of food necessary as in Caloric Restriction. Or even better do both things simultaneously and actually one approach entails sometimes the other too as in my case.

My point was just to warn against idyllic dogmatic views and relevant demonizations such as "plants are bad and meat is good" or "plant X is bad and plant Y is good" or even "cooked is bad or raw is good".
 
For instance, systematically overeating raw stuff such as dried fruits or nuts or even raw animal fats or muscles, because of various ideologies, might well not be much better and most likely be even worse than eating some cooked stuff in ones meals in limited amounts on average as our paleo HGs ancestors did.          

Yes, and I think genetics and epigenetics play a role also. My whole clan on both sides of the family seem particularly susceptible to the diseases of civilization from eating SAD or vegetarian diets and multiple physical features run in my family's genes that are associated with ancestral hunter peoples.

There is indeed a genetic variability but to which extent is your present strong intolerance of fruit or plant foods to trace back to this and is there so strong a determinism?  You suffer probably from some damage that is at least partly reversible. Epigenetic changes are.  

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks Cinna.

....My point was just to warn against idyllic dogmatic views and relevant demonizations such as "plants are bad and meat is good" or "plant X is bad and plant Y is good" or even "cooked is bad or raw is good".
 
For instance, systematically overeating raw stuff such as dried fruits or nuts or even raw animal fats or muscles, because of various ideologies, might well not be much better and most likely be even worse than eating some cooked stuff in ones meals in limited amounts on average as our paleo HGs ancestors did.

It depends on what you mean by Paleo and there's where much of the disagreement lies. Before humans started cooking they and their hominoid ancestors survived for millions of years on all raw foods. So one thing that is debated is did humans adapt to cooked foods and if so how much? Plus, were the adaptations beneficial, as Wrangham suggests, or were they merely degenerations of the sort Weston Price talked about? I believe humans did adapt/change from gradually increased cooking but so far the evidence suggests to me that most of the adaption/change was degenerative (ex: smaller, weaker jaws, finer bones, etc.), though it's hard to know what changes occurred due to increased cooking and what resulted from changes in the foods consumed. Wrangham's main point seems to be brain size increase, but most scientists disagree with cooking as the cause. The majority of scientific opinion currently tilts toward increased raw animal fat consumption.

There is indeed a genetic variability but to which extent is your present strong intolerance of fruit or plant foods to trace back to this and is there so strong a determinism?  You suffer probably from some damage that is at least partly reversible. Epigenetic changes are.  

I think genetics, epigenetics and damage from SAD are likely all factors and I'm hoping that more healing will come.

[Iguana]

Phil, I'm thinking of opening a thread about cassia fistula, if you would like any above post on that subject to be moved there, we can do it. Just let me know which ones.

Thanks
Francois

[PaleoPhil]

These are the hairloss treatments in Danny Roddy's interesting ebook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq4SyCVwQnE) I bought that I could do more with and by coincidence recently have been trying to incorporate more into my regimen:

Pemmican
Carb load with tubers like potatoes, yams, & sweet potatoes, during the weekends
Strive for 8+ hours of uninterrupted sleep
Sunlight

Due to my past positive antibody tests for beef, being reminded by one of KGH's blog posts (and also Danny Roddy's blogging about it) that beef contains bovine serum albumin, I've been considering making pemmican again--possibly made using low-dried jerky plus raw marrow fat--but it's time consuming and I haven't gotten around to it, so instead I've been eating more of other meats and fish besides beef.

I've been searching for a raw Paleo alternative to cooked tubers, but haven't found anything I do well on that provides enough carbs to make a difference. I don't tend to handle fruits well, though I have been eating small amounts of certain fruits now and then. I eat potatoes and sweet potatoes at restaurants and at my parents' house.

The modern world makes getting enough sleep and sunlight difficult, but I'm trying to get more.

[PaleoPhil]

There were not papayas in my local market, but there were plums, which may even be a better alternative.

[Iguana]

In agreement with PaleoPhil, the posts concerning cassia fistula have been moved here.

[alphagruis]

It depends on what you mean by Paleo and there's where much of the disagreement lies. Before humans started cooking they and their hominoid ancestors survived for millions of years on all raw foods. So one thing that is debated is did humans adapt to cooked foods and if so how much? Plus, were the adaptations beneficial, as Wrangham suggests, or were they merely degenerations of the sort Weston Price talked about? I believe humans did adapt/change from gradually increased cooking but so far the evidence suggests to me that most of the adaption/change was degenerative (ex: smaller, weaker jaws, finer bones, etc.), though it's hard to know what changes occurred due to increased cooking and what resulted from changes in the foods consumed. Wrangham's main point seems to be brain size increase, but most scientists disagree with cooking as the cause. The majority of scientific opinion currently tilts toward increased raw animal fat consumption.

My point was that HG's from upper paleolithic were most likely usually in much better shape than modern RP dieters in spite of there being a fraction of cooked stuff in their diet and this makes sense according to my previous comments but not in dogmatic oversimplified RP (or a fortiori instincto) paradigms.

This does of course not at all mean that cooking was not already an additional toxic stress (but apparently not enough to impair seriously HG's health) or a fortiori that Wrangham is even remotely right. One may speculate in an endless manner about the influence of cooking on human evolution because archeologic data are much too scarce to get even the slightest chance to hit the target. My present guess is that cooking is the consequence rather than the cause of brain development that took place earlier in evolution.    

[PaleoPhil]

I ate a teaspoon of high meat chunks and gravy today and was expecting the usual zero result, but this time a few seconds after I swallowed it, I felt a good, relaxing feeling pass through the muscles of my upper back and back of my neck and a couple minutes later I could feel a cool, good feeling in my esophagus and stomach. It doesn't necessarily mean anything, but I'm noting it in case it does.

[PaleoPhil]

One of the most important principles I've found in lifestyle changes like yoga, meditation, exercise, natural posture, barefoot-style walking, squatting, etc., is to try to incorporate them into daily life (just like a hunter-gatherer naturally does) rather than treat them as "exceptions" that you do 15 - 60 minutes or so a day and then go back to your normal bad habits the rest of the time. I know that it's easier said than done in today's modern world, but I have found it worthwhile to incorporate these sorts of natural elements into my lifestyle as much as possible.

I have done things like give away my TV years ago and spend more time in face-to-face socializing with people. I try to incorporate things into my daily routine like breathing semi-yogically lots of the time, walking as close to barefoot all the time, walking instead of driving, treating every annoying pause (such as a hung computer) as an opportunity for a brief meditation (see Eckhart Tolle, the the Benson-Henry Institute for Mind Body Medicine at Massachusetts General Hospital and other sources on this), taking yoga and Thera-band exercise breaks at work if I start to get stiff from sitting, talking less and listening and paying attention more, taking nature walks to quiet spots where I can relax and meditate, and so on. I also use some modern techniques like writing down things to do and issues to deal with in task lists and a journal, so my mind lets go of them and I get good quality sleep.

What made me think about this consciously and post about it is a study I just read about. Unfortunately, it requires paid access, so I couldn't read the full article, but here's an intro to it:

Fibromyalgia: Increased regular physical activity as 'exercise' in fibromyalgia
S. E. Gowans
p499 | doi:10.1038/nrrheum.2010.135
http://www.nature.com/nrrheum/journal/v6/n9/full/nrrheum.2010.135.html

Although the benefits of exercise for individuals with fibromyalgia are well known, it can be difficult for individuals to begin or maintain an exercise regimen. A recent trial examined whether defining “exercise” as increases in regular home-based physical activities might improve exercise compliance.

[Stephanie07]

Water is really important for us well our body needs water badly in order to function right and wash away the toxins inside our body.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, I've been working on increasing my water intake--despite the warnings of the Fiber Menace guy against it (heh heh). I trust the Inuit more than I do the Fiber Menace dude, though FM does crack me up and has some good points.

Another Inuit-style strategy I've been trying is buying and eating a wider variety of fats to try to increase my intake and maybe help the bowels, and because plant food experiments have gone badly. I added krill oil to my suet, cod liver oil, fish oil and occasional EVOO and I'm eating more marrow and lard (I don't like the taste of raw pork fat, though I may experiment with spicing it). I'm eating enough now that I'm getting some mild sweetness in my saliva again, suggesting high ketone levels. With all the omega 3s I'm getting, I'm putting the claims of the fish oil critics through quite a test. So far only benefits and no negative side effects like bloody noses.

Overall I feel improved since increasing fat, water and salt--with the biggest increase (and most benefits) being in the fat (which in turn then increased my thirst and desire for water and my enjoyment of it--it's back to being my favorite-tasting beverage). I have a bit better sense of well being (which was already rather good), more alert and focused, no yawning at all, even better tolerance to both heat and cold than usual, less muscle tension from office work, better exercise tolerance; too early to tell much else. Fats definitely seem to be my most beneficial macronutrient, even though I still don't digest them 100% efficiently. Once again the Arctic /Inuit /Yupik /Namgis/ Chukchi /Ket (Deng) /Evenk /Sami/ Lex Rooker /Katelyn-style mostly-raw diet seems to work best for me. Hope Katelyn gets a chance to read this, as I know she'd get a kick out of it.

One downside to the lemon flavored fish oil is that the critic acid is apparently giving me mild reflux, whereas the mint CLO does not. No more citrus-flavored fish oil for me after I finish what I have.

[klowcarb]

Yay, you finally got back on track. Why waste time on fruit? Most people you need to socialize with won't care if you eat at all, and they are probably completely uneducated about nutrition. I eat raw meat in front of others all the time. They don't have 15% BF and the rest LBM. Their opinions are useless to me on nutrition. I will discuss any other topic but nutrition with the ignorant. Stop worrying about your weight. You are meant to be lean-embrace it!

[PaleoPhil]

Ha ha, I knew you'd celebrate, KLC. I'm not worrying about it so much as desiring improvements and enjoying experimenting (and I probably wouldn't be experimenting if I didn't still have some health issues) and would be pleased if I set a better example for my friends and loved ones (many folks are impressed by a slender gal like you, but not a skinny guy) so that more would join the bandwagon (some of them are sadly deteriorating). Plus, I think my skinnyness is more than just cosmetic. I think it may indicate that my gut flora, intestinal lining and immune system may not be fully healed yet. And it would make me a more credible author if I ever write a book on this stuff. I know I'll always be thin if I eat this way, but I think my natural weight is probably another 15 lbs or so.

If more improvements don't come, so be it, but I haven't given up yet--I'm an eternal optimist (with a healthy dose of skepticism thrown in ). Besides, with each health/appearance breakthrough I make I learn something new and like the famous physicist Richard Feynman I love to learn things. The way Lex likes to work on clocks I like to learn new stuff and make connections and predictions (like I predict that my posture will improve further--how much, I don't know). One neat example is the way my eye color and that of others here has been changing (getting a little green in my case). It may seem like merely cosmetic and not provide any sort of advantage but it a) raises some interesting questions, b) suggests some fascinating insights as well as possible explanations for certain things and c) may suggest that unseen health improvements are occurring.

[klowcarb]

I put on 4 lbs. of muscle since January. I meet with a trainer ever 8 weeks for a caliper BF analysis. I use it in tandem with my bodyfat scale for bodybuilding. I put on 4lbs. of muscle and 4 inches on my shoulders, without upping fat . I have a program that is working!

[PaleoPhil]

Congrats!

[PaleoPhil]

Krav Maga taking off in popularity in the USA
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/9025259.stm