PaleoPhil's Journal

[PaleoPhil]

Right, I should have written "can accumulate" to be more precise. This is the hypothesis of Eaton, Cordain and others behind how grains and legumes can still be harmful for us despite toxin reduction via cooking and/or other processing--even small amounts of toxins can accumulate over time when eaten chronically in staple foods. Plants with strong medicinal effects tend to also be more toxic as a result, just as more potent pharmaceuticals tend to have more severe side effects in the long run. Beneficial in the short run, but harmful in the long run if consumed chronically in significant amounts, and sometimes the amounts don't even have to be that much.  The same appears to hold with antinutrients. Even small amounts of antinutrients can apparently cause deficiencies when consumed as staples in the longer run.

The critics of Paleo nutrition say that there aren't enough toxins/antinutrients in agrarian foods to cause any problems, but we don't really know at what level each plant chemical becomes damaging for each and every individual and less of the constraints of nature, like seasonality, competitors, physical difficulties (such as having to climb a tree and contend with bees to get forest honeycomb/grubcomb), physical characteristics of the food itself (such as the wild honeycomb/grubcomb with grubs, bee parts, royal jelly, propolis, pollen and wax vs. commercial filtered and heated honey from less robust domesticated bees) are left in this world to guide our intakes. Even GCB admits that highly domesticated fruit should be limited with the brain, not just the instinct, as the instinctive stop has likely been negatively affected by human intervention in the makeup of domesticated fruits.

Thus while wild and organic plants can have marvelous benefits, I'd prefer not to eat the same plant every day or nearly every day if I can avoid it, particularly the more medicinal ones. Cassia fistula seems like a somewhat medicinal plant.

[PaleoPhil]

Iguana, since I was making an Amazon order anyway, I ordered one of the cassia fistula pods with it. How do I open it and eat some "slices"?

[Iguana]

You can break it with a nutcracker or with the teeth and suck the soft parts, then spit the hard wooden parts and seeds. I suck some disks when it smells and tastes good, at least half an hour before a meal, usually in the morning or in the evening before going to sleep. Begin gradually with 4 or 5 discs maximum and then you can double the amount everyday until you reach the instinctive stop which occurs for me with a hard, strong too sweet taste, almost mouth burning

Enjoy!
François

[PaleoPhil]

So sorry for forgetting your past post Iguana. My memory is poor, probably due to decades of damage by modern foods. Are the disks you speak of the dividing walls between the seeds inside the cassia bean pod? All I see is an extremely hard outer pod shell, inner dividing walls stuck to the shell, and small seeds in between the walls. Unless you had told me that cassia fistula were edible, I would never have guessed it, nor guessed which parts to eat (I would have guessed the seeds, as they look the most foodlike). I sucked on a few of the walls. They do dissolve. I don't care for the taste from the beginning (it's mildly bitter with a bit of excessive sweetness) and I didn't detect any smell. By sticking my nose right up to it I detected a mild and mildly unpleasant smell. So I guess my alliesthetic senses are telling me to not eat these. GCB advised to force oneself to eat the cassia fistula beyond what the senses indicate in the beginning, which for me was the first taste, to basically break the constipation log jam, so I did so to try it out.

I tried sucking on 4 of the little internal wall dividers last night until they dissolved in my mouth. No noticeable effects today.

What parts of these do the monkeys eat? I find it difficult to imagine that they would pick out the little wall dividers and ignore the seeds, but I have no info on this beyond what you've reported. How do the monkeys open them, by crushing them with their teeth?

---

I tried a few more honeys, not because I expect any great benefits necessarily, though they are a calorically dense soft food, which addresses two of my health issues, but more out of scientific curiosity. Modern physicians, scientists and experts tell us that honey is just another sugar, yet for some reason wild honey doesn't seem to cause any obvious harm to hunter gatherers and traditional peoples. The experts claims it's only because the honey is restricted by season and difficult to get. I've seen HGs and even chimps gather wild honey and in each case they seemed unconcerned by the risk of falling and even the stings, so I doubt that difficulty was a great deterrent. The scientific research acknowledges that bee hive contents are the most highly valued food among HGs and some other primates and bears. I don't know much about the seasonality, perhaps someone else can fill me in on that.

I noted here - http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/liquid-raw-honey/msg63389/#msg63389 - that some raw wild honeys can remain liquid after being jarred for some time whereas another variety of honey from the same producer can crystallize quickly. Some honeys crystallize into soft creams whereas others turn hard. The water content of the honey is apparently a factor here, and someone also mentioned that the fructose content is a factor.

The Heavenly Organics Wild Forest raw honey is rather dark and greenish in color and has a taste reminiscent of the smell of pine trees. They mention that it comes from forests that contain neem trees. Neem is well known as good for dental health and I did notice that despite being a very liquid honey it seemed to cause a tiny bit less dental crud the next morning than some other honeys.

Their White Himalayan honey was tastier and nicely thick, soft and smooth. I think it may be my favorite tasting honey so far. It seemed to cause the more usual amount of dental crud.

Y.S. Bee Farms Super Enriched Honey is dark like the Wild Forest honey, and still greener (although I'm color blind, so it could be brown as I have difficulty distinguishing green and brown). It also seems to cause a tiny bit less of the crud and have a forest-type taste that is also a bit medicinal. Perhaps the latter is because it's enriched with bee pollen, propolis and royal jelly, which are supposed to have medicinal benefits. While I'm not thrilled by the taste, it has some of the best texture and consistency--smoothness and soft thickness--I've come across, maybe the best.

Today I also tested the effect on blood glucose of the YS Bee Farms Super Enriched Honey with Bee Pollen, Propolis and Royal Jelly, which was almost exactly the same as other honeys:
Fasting BG before consuming the honey: 97 mg/dl
Ate 2 tbsps of the honey
1 hour postprandial BG: 208 mg/dl
2 hour pp BG: 112 mg/dl
3 hour pp BG: 101 mg/dl

Interestingly, I've been getting some fasting BG measurements around the 100 mg/dl level despite including significant carbs in my diet for months. If those levels were initially caused by peripheral insulin resistance from ZC/VLC, then it's supposed to return to lower levels by adding carbs back into the diet.

[djr_81]

I don't know much about the seasonality, perhaps someone else can fill me in on that.

Simply that flowers only bloom part of the year so pollen is collected and honey is made at those times only. I suppose you could find hives outside of this period though.

Phil; My apologies if you mentioned this earlier in the journal but roughly how much honey are you ingesting at once to test your blood sugar? Also, have you tried the honey in conjunction with a fat to see how it affects your blood sugar response?
I've personally had success with a very minimal amount of raw comb with a typical meal of suet & ground beef. Anything more than the scant 1/2 teaspoon with 1 pound ground and ~1/4 pound suet and I get soreness to my eyes. If I eat the right amount though I seem to have better energy the next day (I add the honey at my second, dinnertime, meal).

[PaleoPhil]

Phil; My apologies if you mentioned this earlier in the journal but roughly how much honey are you ingesting at once to test your blood sugar?

Usually 2 tablespoons (34 g carbs per nutritiondata), as mentioned above. That's enough to shoot my BG above 200 to see how well it returns to normal after 2-3 hours. No need to go higher like a pound of honey like what Brady eats. Less than 1-2 tbsps doesn't seem like enough to satisfy me. Kind of like trying to eat just one potato chip.

Also, have you tried the honey in conjunction with a fat to see how it affects your blood sugar response?

Yes, I did report on that some time ago. As I recall, it had provided a small reduction in the BG spike.

I've personally had success with a very minimal amount of raw comb with a typical meal of suet & ground beef. Anything more than the scant 1/2 teaspoon with 1 pound ground and ~1/4 pound suet and I get soreness to my eyes.

Interesting. I haven't had the sore eyes experience, though I do wake up with sand in my eyes sometimes if I overdo it on honey. I seem to handle 2 tbsps in a day relatively OK, with a little bit of dry skin, but I do get substantially worse dry skin, particularly dry forehead and chapped lips, when I eat well over 2 tbsps in a day.

---

Forgot to mention that I noticed that after eating a packet of those freeze dried durian I get nasty sulphurous burps afterwards.

[Ioanna]

djr, i find this interesting about your 1/2 tsp of honey.  it seems calorically and nutritionally negligible to me, but obviously it's not.  i don't get it.  does it have to be honey??   

[Iguana]

So sorry for forgetting your past post Iguana. My memory is poor, probably due to decades of damage by modern foods.

Or else it’s because there's too much info available and we can’t remember every post and everything! 

Are the disks you speak of the dividing walls between the seeds inside the cassia bean pod? All I see is an extremely hard outer pod shell, inner dividing walls stuck to the shell, and small seeds in between the walls. Unless you had told me that cassia fistula were edible, I would never have guessed it, nor guessed which parts to eat (I would have guessed the seeds, as they look the most foodlike). I sucked on a few of the walls. They do dissolve. I don't care for the taste from the beginning (it's mildly bitter with a bit of excessive sweetness) and I didn't detect any smell. By sticking my nose right up to it I detected a mild and mildly unpleasant smell. So I guess my alliesthetic senses are telling me to not eat these. GCB advised to force oneself to eat the cassia fistula beyond what the senses indicate in the beginning, which for me was the first taste, to basically break the constipation log jam, so I did so to try it out.

Yes, most people don’t swallow the seeds and the hard part of the disks which are between the seeds but only the brown-black soft thing which dissolves in the mouth. Some pods are not tasty, too dry, while some others are yummy. Therefore it’s better to have a few of them and compare their taste in a way to be able to reject the few bad ones. It’s a wild stuff and like all wild stuff there are large differences from one to the other. 

I tried sucking on 4 of the little internal wall dividers last night until they dissolved in my mouth. No noticeable effects today.

So, you may go up to 8 today, 16 tomorrow, 32, the day after, 64 the next day, then 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2028… (doubling the amount each day). I bet your constipation will be over before you reach 2028… 

What parts of these do the monkeys eat? I find it difficult to imagine that they would pick out the little wall dividers and ignore the seeds, but I have no info on this beyond what you've reported. How do the monkeys open them, by crushing them with their teeth?

I’ve never been able to observe a monkey eating it, that’s just what I’ve been told. I guess they crush it with their teeth like I do sometimes and they spit the parts they don’t like as no one told’em spitting is not nice in society…

[djr_81]

djr, i find this interesting about your 1/2 tsp of honey.  it seems calorically and nutritionally negligible to me, but obviously it's not.  i don't get it.  does it have to be honey??   

I don't know yet. I'll try it with something else in the future and keep everyone posted in my journal.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, most people don’t swallow the seeds and the hard part of the disks which are between the seeds but only the brown-black soft thing which dissolves in the mouth. Some pods are not tasty, too dry, while some others are yummy.

I think I got one of the dry ones. It didn't have anything truly soft in it. All I see are the hard outer shell, the inner dividers that dissolve in my mouth, and the seeds.

So, you may go up to 8 today, 16 tomorrow, 32, the day after, 64 the next day, then 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2028… (doubling the amount each day). I bet your constipation will be over before you reach 2028…  

I went up to 8 last night and it did get the bowels moving but it had the sort of harsh effect that senna pills have on me, plus it created a lot of foul smelling flatulence. I'll spare folks the graphic details, but the stools were far from optimal and also foul smelling and I felt an unpleasant sensation as they came out and had some mild cramping. I also developed a bit of throat mucus, which in my experience is my body's way of trying to expel something inflammatory or irritating that I ate, like acidic foods and high-antinutrient or poorly tolerated foods. Not so much a detox as a protox. I was hoping that a senna "food" would be less harsh than the senna pills, but apparently not for me. This is the same sort of experience I have with senna pills--they go from not working at all to working harshly, with little or no in-between, although senna tea works less harshly for me, but still more harshly than avocados with eggs.

Avocados with eggs work more gently, with just a small amount of stomach gas and the stools are well formed and it feels pleasant as they come out, so avocados and eggs still seem to be my best therapy so far. However, I have to eat quite a bit of them for it to work and I'm not thrilled by the prospect of having to eat a lot of avocados and eggs nearly every day. As was pointed out by someone else, avocados, like all plant foods (yes, even fruits, believe it or not), contain at least one toxin--persin. However, fruits tend to contain lower levels of toxins than legumes and humans are more adapted to fruits than legumes, so it's not surprising that avocados would affect me less negatively than the cassia fistula legume and I'm less concerned in the longer run too. I will continue to keep my eye out for other therapies too so that with luck some time in the future I may not have to rely as much on avocados, eggs, marrow and honey.

I’ve never been able to observe a monkey eating it, that’s just what I’ve been told. I guess they crush it with their teeth like I do sometimes and they spit the parts they don’t like as no one told’em spitting is not nice in society…

No offense, but I can see why those people who said the monkeys eat it don't eat the cassia fistula themselves and leave it to the monkeys.

[Iguana]

Do you think the heat damaged and other abnormal molecules from the Neolithic and modern food you have eaten for years would come out enjoyably and with a pleasant smell ?

Cheers
Francois

[PaleoPhil]

I don't buy the claim that there's any relation to the Neolithic foods I haven't eaten in years. I find it highly more likely that the smell was created by the cassia fistula that I ate the day before than foods I ate years ago, particularly since the smell was basically the same as the smell I get any time I take a fairly big dose of senna. Does that same smell and other shared unpleasant symptoms mean that senna pills are also providing a marvelous detox benefit?

It's the same sort of claim made by proponents of any diet/food/therapy when it doesn't work for someone. They'll claim that any negative symptoms from one of their recommended foods are actually healthy "detox," regardless of how long the negative symptoms persist. Thus, for example, Aajonus kept telling Tyler to consume raw dairy regardless of how bad the symptoms were that resulted and regardless of how long those negative symptoms persisted. Eventually Tyler realized that it was the raw milk that was causing the problems, not some imaginary "detox" of foods eaten years earlier. I've even seen raw vegans claim that cavities and crumbling teeth were signs of a healthy "detox." So we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Iguana]

I agree that not every negative  symptom is due to detox, of course, and the examples you give show it perfectly. But it’s clearly illogical as well to jump on the opposite belief that detox doesn’t exist.

Since we know that cooked and typically Neolithic food (cereals and dairy) brings abnormal molecules into our body (intoxination), then we should admit that detoxination can occur. Otherwise there would be no hope to heal and get to a normal weight again for the sick and obese people while on the contrary experience shows that sick and obese people can regain a perfect health and weight under instinctive paleo nutrition.
 

If we admit that there can be intoxination by Maillard molecules and such, don’t you think the body will eliminate those molecules when suitable ones become available? Don’t you think the bacterial and viral illnesses should be beneficial in restoring the body global health? Would you interrupt a bacterial illness by taking antibiotics? Would you go to a dermatologist in case you get rashes? What do you think comes out of the nose when we have a cold? How do you explain we can get colds in hot tropical climates?

I saw (or rather smelled  ) it again a few months ago when I bought 6 weeks old hens which had been fed on factory feedstuffs. Their manure had a foul smell which progressively diminished and almost disappeared over a duration of one to two months, even that they were now only grazing, fed raw leftovers and a bit of organic unheated millet. So, it perfectly confirmed once again that the duration of detoxination is of the same order of magnitude than the duration of intoxination, as GCB had noticed during his 45 years experience and meticulous observations on hundreds of animals and humans.   

[PaleoPhil]

I agree that not every negative  symptom is due to detox, of course, and the examples you give show it perfectly. But it’s clearly illogical as well to jump on the opposite belief that detox doesn’t exist.

Yes, it would be, but I didn't claim that "detox" doesn't exist and no two people seem to have the exact same meaning of the word, so I wouldn't even necessarily know what I was claiming doesn't exist, and thus it's not clear that anyone is jumping on that "belief". Straw men arguments are also clearly illogical.

I try to take a Socratic approach. I find Socratic questioning to be highly valuable and the only belief I am sure of is that I am sure of nothing with certainty.

I saw (or rather smelled  ) it again a few months ago when I bought 6 weeks old hens which had been fed on factory feedstuffs. Their manure had a foul smell which progressively diminished and almost disappeared over a duration of one to two months, ....

Well it's been way more than two months since I ate SAD, so by your own standards then it's apparently highly unlikely that the symptoms I got after consuming cassia fistula were related to SAD eating years ago.

---*---

On an unrelated topic that was hit upon recently in my journal, I came across something rather interesting:

"Dates contain elemental fluorine that is useful in protecting teeth against decay." (The fruit of the date palm: its possible use as the best food for the future?)

[Iguana]

I didn't claim that "detox" doesn't exist

Sorry, I thought you believed  that no detox can occur. So, you admit detox could happen, then?

Well it's been way more than two months since I ate SAD, so by your own standards then it's apparently highly unlikely that the symptoms I got after consuming cassia fistula were related to SAD eating years ago.

(…) the duration of detoxination is of the same order of magnitude than the duration of intoxination (…)

It means that if you have eaten cooked food for 2 months, you will more or less detox for about 2 months and if you have eaten cooked food for 30 years, your detox will last approximately 30 years. Of course it’s not linear, but gradually decreasing: intense at the beginning, barely noticeable in the end.  

On an unrelated topic that was hit upon recently in my journal, I came across something rather interesting:

"Dates contain elemental fluorine that is useful in protecting teeth against decay." (The fruit of the date palm: its possible use as the best food for the future?)

Thanks. Yes, dates contain a lot of minerals, mg and ca also if I remember.

[PaleoPhil]

Sorry, I thought you believed  that no detox can occur. So, you admit detox could happen, then?

I don't see everything as fitting into neat binary boxes, including "detox." I don't see it as a choice between accepting everything GCB says about detox or rejecting any notion like it completely. I believe that detoxification can happen, but my conception of detox appears to differ somewhat from yours. I find it highly more likely that the symptoms I got came from detoxing the cassia fistula I ate the day before than from modern foods eaten years ago. Cassia fistula contains known medicinal substances that the body deals with by expelling as rapidly as possible, thus contributing to its laxative effect, which can be beneficial on a short-term basis, but is generally not recommended chronically. In other words, I think it's more likely that my body was detoxing from the cassia fistula that I ate the night before than from the pizza I ate 30 years ago, which would be OK if it weren't so harsh. Sennoside therapeutics like Cassia fistula remain in my toolkit, but they are a last resort.

[Iguana]

I don't see everything as fitting into neat binary boxes, including "detox." I don't see it as a choice between accepting everything GCB says about detox or rejecting any notion like it completely.

Fine.

I believe that detoxification can happen, but my conception of detox appears to differ somewhat from yours. I find it highly more likely that the symptoms I got came from detoxing the cassia fistula I ate the day before than from modern foods eaten years ago.

That’s the problem: knowing whether  the symptoms we get are due to what we  just ate or because it triggered a detox of something we ate long ago. It’s always difficult to know. That’s has been one of the focus of GCB’s research and what he has inferred is based on comprehensive observations on a lot of people and animals during several years. Of course you don’t have to believe it and you can do your own experiments and research. 

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, there are no objective data that can tell me whether "detox" is caused by what I ate the day before or decades ago, just my experience to go on. I've had enough experience with senna at this point that I think I recognize what effects are produced directly by it. You don't have to believe me, of course, and your own experience may be different, which is fine. There's no law that says that everyone has to have the same experience.

The definition in the lowest part of my abdomen is now better than any point in my life. I'm astounded that an area that used to be so weak that it had an inguinal pre-hernia bulge that would pop out and was painful is now one of my best-defined areas. I didn't think this was possible.

I was also amazed that a 1 lbs jar of Really Raw fermented honey (it's honey, not mead) didn't give me chapped lips, dry skin and dandruff but instead I experienced improvement in all these areas after eating it and even experienced some euphoria. I even tried to intentionally produce my usual negative symptoms of over-consumption of raw honey by eating as much of it as I could. Instead of getting negative symptoms I only got positive ones. I also got a stronger stop with this honey than most other honeys, and it wasn't an unpleasant nauseous feeling like I get with some honeys. I just couldn't eat another bite.

These fermented honey results are quite puzzling and I'm tempted to write this off to coincidence as I can't explain it. They were particularly puzzling given that the honey spiked my BG to 234 mg/dl--higher than I've ever measured from honey before. I've ordered some more, along with the regular Really Raw honey, and am curious to see what further results will be. Has anyone else tried raw fermented honey?

[Josh]

You could try eating the same amount of normal honey now to test it if you're feeling brave.

Maybe you've healed enough to be able to tolerate it?

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, I did that with centrifuged honey and got the same old negative symptoms, although seemingly milder than in the past. Next I will test regular Really Raw honey vs. fermented Really Raw honey to see whether it's the fermentation or the honey itself, or just a one-time fluke.

[PaleoPhil]

Had some more decent benefits from Really Raw brand raw fermented honey and the fermented aspect appears to be the key, as their unfermented honey didn't provide the benefits. The biggest benefit appears to be dramatic rapid reduction in dry/flaky skin on my scalp.

I saw a lecture on osteoporosis today at work. When the physician doing the lecture talked about sardines being good for calcium the mostly female audience emitted "ews" and groans of disgust. Then when he mentioned that the sardines should be bone-in they "ewws" were doubly-loud and doubly-long. Later he mentioned that cod liver was good for vitamin D and there were more "ewws". It's seriously lame how many Americans are disgusted by a large number of foods that much of the rest of the world recognizes as super healthy and delicious (especially raw-fresh or raw-fermented, of course).

[Max]

Hello PaleoPhil,

I just finished reading all of your journal, and I wanted to say, keep up the good work!  Your journal is very informative and you are good at stating the facts and how food effects you in a very scientific manner.

I might have to order some of that fermented raw honey.  (sounds delicious!)

I am looking forward to the continuation of your journal. 

-Max

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks, Max. The fermented honey has a bit of fermented smell and taste so that it doesn't taste quite as good to me as other honeys, but still tastes quite delicious and like all naturally fermented foods, I seem to like it more the more I eat it. I'm used to eating high meat, stink fish, unflavored raw fermented cod liver oil (talk about stink fish--phew! it was quite strong-smelling and tasting to me at first, but now I'm nearly used to it) and sauerkraut, so it probably tastes less good to modern food eaters than it does to me. I can eat as much as I like of it without getting any nausea, dry skin or chapped lips (and it actually appears to clear up any pre-existing dry skin or chapped lips within a few days). Also, the more I eat of it, the more of a euphoric effect I get. I was tempted not to share my wonderful results because Really Raw is already short of fermented honey stock, but felt I owed it to the folks here who have provided me with helpful info, such as Brady, who kept my interest in experimenting with honey going. I hope that more honey makers will make fermented raw honey.

My best guess is that I have candidiasis, because reducing my carb intake greatly reduced the dryness of my skin & scalp and candida supposedly feeds off certain carbs, plus raw fermented honey rapidly gets rid of residual dryness, suggesting that it may be killing off candida fungus (which raw honey reportedly can do). Raw fermented honey is supposed to contain a higher level of lacto and bifido bacteria than unfermented raw honey, so maybe these bacteria help to kill off fungi? On the other hand, so many folks jump to the conclusion that they have candidiasis that I was reluctant to even speculate about it, but it's the only explanation I can come up with so far.

[Max]

I also have symptoms that include chapped lips, dry skin and dandruff.  I have found a local source of raw honey so I think I will try that first and then buy some fermented raw honey, and see how they compare for me.

Question:  Has the fermented raw honey helped with any of your digestive problems?

[PaleoPhil]

The raw fermented and raw fermented cod liver oil seem to help me digest carbs better, but it's hard to tell. When I eat these foods I don't notice negative symptoms from berries, so I've been eating more blackberries, which I love.

Fermented raw honey is still acidic like all honeys, so if I eat too much I do still get some belching, but less than with regular raw honey and no other negative symptoms with it.