teeth and hunting

[goodsamaritan]

To the guy who said that commercial fruit is so different: it is not. As I have tirelessly explained before the fruit you buy in the stores is NOT selected by higher sugar, higher sugar fruit is NOT more appealing to humans, the sweetest fruit is NOT from the highest sugar it is from the most nutritious. Fruit has been artificially selected to give the most nutritious fruit possible while unhealthy apples etc. are thrown away.

This may have happened up to the early 20th century.  When pesticides and large scale commercial farming came into the picture, only money mattered.

I went through my fruitarian phase and I live in an abundant fruit growing country and I can tell you I avoid commercially grown fruit because they suck in so many ways!  For example:

CAVENDISH BANANAS - mono farming, all forms of pesticides, herbicides, etc., chemically washed, picked too early, ripened artificially, chemically washed, irradiated for export.  And besides, these are the worst bananas, us natives do not eat it and feed it to the pigs.  We feel foreigners are dummies wanting to eat these bananas because they look "perfect" but we natives view "perfect" looking fruit with suspicion as WEIRD. Only grown by big multinational corporations.

YELLOW CARABAO MANGOES - sprayed and sprayed with chemicals to flower and bear fruit.  Picked too early.  Artificially ripened with "kalburo" - a toxic foul smelling chemical in gun powder, which is illegal, but is an industry practice.  The farmers who grow carabao mangoes set aside a couple of trees for their PERSONAL / FAMILY consumption which they do not put chemicals on because they know the rest of their produce is toxic.

Many of our other fruits are wildcrafted, merely planted and the farmers just watch over it so nobody steals the fruit, no intervention whatsoever.

Fruitarians have good arguments but the results show NOTHING.  Many teeth have been harmed in their trying fruitarian.  I gave up fruitarian after 2 months. There is no CURE TOOTH DECAY program in the fruitarian way.  In fact, cure tooth decay protocols usually require lots of raw animal foods.  See the book www.curetoothdecay.com

[Guittarman03]

If you're going to argue that we are meant to not eat meat, or only eat a very little bit, then you should at least be eating insects.  80% of the worlds population still purposefully eats insects.  Insects naturally occur in fruit anyways, plus they have nutrients that fruit does not. 

[zaida]

Super Infinity, I am sorry if you got the wrong idea but this topic was suppose to discuss hunting and methods that would have been used in more primitive days, not how we didn't hunt. There is tons of ancient evidence that suggest hunting long ago. Every thing from ancient spears to wall paintings.

 As far as the teeth issue, it is not something we should dwell on. As far as how we don't have teeth like other carnivores I strongly now believe that we do not need to. We have hands that are very versatile as well as brains for creating weapons to kill and cut our meat. For other carnivores such as a lion or a dog they need a special set of teeth on their own as they do not have the skills to make weapons and traps to hunt their prey with. I do not state that this is how it is but instead I state that this is what I personally believe. Everyone has their right to freedom of belief however it is not polite to tell someone they are wrong without having sufficient evidence to back up the claim. Our jaws have gotten smaller over time thus we now need to take out our wisdom teeth because even though our jaws are getting smaller our number of teeth are not. Do we know the real reason why this is happening? No but it is enjoyable to discuss reasons and to hear others thoughts.

As Goodsamaritan pointed out commercial fruit is nowhere near what Paleo man would have eaten. Try going yourself into the wild one day without any farmers fields and you will see yourself wild fruit and veggies is vastly different in both appearance and taste (and most notably nutrition) than what you will ever buy from a grocery store. And unhealthy apples do not get thrown away, people are too greedy and ready to make a quick buck for that. Those unhealthy apples are most likely taken and used to make apple sauce or put in the apple pies at Mcdonalds.

Super Infinity I really think you need to open your mind up to other possibilities as we are discovering new things every day. To have your mind set so hard in one direction will not allow you to grow but rather it will end up hindering you. To have your own set of views and beliefs is great but you should not push them on to others. From what I have seen the majority of people here on this forum eat mainly meat. If you are not willing to accept the fact that they will not change that then you would be best off taking your conversations to a more fruit and veg orientated forum.

William - I will have to try a smudge fire in my backyard next time I am cutting up a animal for my dogs! the flies are always bothering me and I was going to resort to trying to screen a area in. Or would my neighbors get cranky about a smudge fire? How do you make one? They are great about not making a fuss about what I do in my backyard. Once I decided to slaughter 12 roosters myself in my backyard ( I definitely would not recommend doing this in the city) and one got away on me and was running up and down my back lane. My neighbors still crack jokes about it. Never caught the rooster either... not sure what happened to him but I know I wont be trying that again!

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for the info everyone. As for our teeth I feel as though they are versatile but mainly made for meat. We have a jaw action of both up and down as well as sideways while herbivores I believe only have a side to side action (e.g horse) and carnivores tend to have a up and down action (e.g alligator).

Quite correct. I have more info on this, but I didn't want to make a really long post and bore people, especially since it seems everyone but a troll recognizes that we have omnivorous teeth that have more carnivorous features than most omnivores. In other words, we seem to be designed to be opportunistic carnivores that eat mainly flesh foods, with small amounts of plant foods, particularly during times that flesh--especially animal fat--is scarce.

Isn't it interesting how animals are leanest in the spring, around the same time that plants in Africa and other warm climes are fresh, young, sprouting and most succulent? It works out well for omnivores, who are well adapted to the cycles of nature.

My guess is that Stone Agers also discarded some lean meat during the lean spring months, and killed more animals to get enough marrow, brains and perinephric fat. This unfortunately might have contributed to the extinction of the megafauna, but I can only speculate at this point.

As far as fruit and teeth I would think that if fruit were to be eaten by humans in large quantity it wouldn't have the harming effect that they do on our teeth such as causing more sensitive teeth and wearing off the enamel from the acids in fruit. I have heard of strawberries to whiten teeth but you end up weakening your teeth and causing them to be more sensitive. Never tried it though.

My teeth are noticeably whiter and healthier on a ZC diet. The teeth of carnivores also tend to be white and healthy... , unlike the teeth of those of the chimps I reported on before who eat too many sweet fruits and don't get enough of the special tree bark that helps kill off the cavity-causing bacteria that even wild fruits promote. It's rare to find human fruitarians who have been on the diet for more than a few months who don't have dental problems or don't have to take extraordinary measures to keep their teeth and gums healthy (electric toothbrushes, water picks, extensive flossing, etc.).

Maybe plants are just meant to be eaten occasionally by themselves as a cleanse?

That is one of the reasons that aboriginal peoples eat plants, especially particular plants, and clays, charcoal, and ash are also used to deal with GI issues, yes. I think that plants were eaten for more reasons than that, though. However, if Stone Agers had easy access to year-round plentiful animal fat like most of us do today, I think they would have eaten even more meat & fat than they did.

Another thought is how did they store their meat once they caught a large animal? They didn't have fridges or freezers back then.

Sun drying, aging and smoking were probably the most common methods and still seem pretty common in Africa today from the travel shows, cooking shows and documentaries I've seen. Mother nature does provide freezers in cold climates during the winter. I have stored frozen foods on a dorm window balcony here in Vermont in the past.

Few ideas I had were:
burying in the ground to get it at colder temp
smoking (if their was fire)

Yup

dehydrating.... not sure how they would have accomplished this though.

Through sun drying

When meat is left out flies tend to swarm it and lay their eggs. We all know the result of this however is the meat considered unfit when there are maggots on it? I know my cats wont eat it but my dogs are always more than willing. I understand that maggots are a source of protein as well however the quality of it I am unsure. Do any of you ever leave their meat out in the open air for more than a hour or so?

I'm guessing that they normally dried meat near or above a fire, so that the smoke would help keep bugs away. On the other hand, in a San Bushmen video it shows them just hanging the meat in a tree overnight so it would be lighter to carry back to the camp the next day.

If meat is only hung for a few hours, then maggots do not have a chance to hatch. This apparently is commonly done in less developed countries and the people don't seem to mind that there are flies on the meat, from the videos I've seen. A gourmet American chef on a TV show even sampled some of the raw goat meat that had been hanging and fly-covered at an Ethiopian butcher shop, so apparently there isn't much risk. He even joked about it.

I think we North Americans are far more squeamish than most people in the world, and I think it is partly because we are so far removed from the entire food production process and indeed the whole human life cycle. The birth and death of both animals and humans is now hidden away. Almost everything has been sanitized and packaged. We need to step back into the circle of life and death and embrace it all, as Joseph Campbell, Paul Shepard, Lierre Keith, and others have argued and as all the remaining traditional peoples of the world take for granted.

[goodsamaritan]

Our jaws have gotten smaller over time thus we now need to take out our wisdom teeth because even though our jaws are getting smaller our number of teeth are not. Do we know the real reason why this is happening? No but it is enjoyable to discuss reasons and to hear others thoughts.

This is explained by Weston Price as genetic expression from not enough nutrients in our diets.  If Zaida is on raw paleo long enough and gives birth to a raw paleo baby and that baby grows up raw paleo, he or she will be able to express his genes to the maximum and have a larger jaw, better teeth, etc.  So on with the next generations.

[RawZi]

When meat is left out flies tend to swarm it and lay their eggs. We all know the result of this however is the meat considered unfit when there are maggots on it? I know my cats wont eat it but my dogs are always more than willing. I understand that maggots are a source of protein as well however the quality of it I am unsure. Do any of you ever leave their meat out in the open air for more than a hour or so?

    My cats are getting better about that.  I'm fermenting meat at room temperature, and the older pickier cat actually is starting to like it, she eats it pretty quick now.  It doesn't have maggots, yet.  Maybe I should refrigerate it now finally.  It's getting really 'juicy'.  Anyone familiar with this?  I am eating it.  It still seems fine.  Actually I think it's detoxing me a little as opposed to regular RAF, but subtly.

    I have many times let meat sit out in open air over night.  The next day it goes down just as well as fresh, but the texture is a little drier, it doesn't bother either way.  It is good.  When I let fat sit out in open air, I can't bring myself to eat much of that, it doesn't feel right to eat more than a bite or two.

    I haven't tried eating maggots, but I have tried rubbing them on my skin, and my skin got like a (healthy) baby's.      

[TylerDurden]

This is explained by Weston Price as genetic expression from not enough nutrients in our diets.  If Zaida is on raw paleo long enough and gives birth to a raw paleo baby and that baby grows up raw paleo, he or she will be able to express his genes to the maximum and have a larger jaw, better teeth, etc.  So on with the next generations.

There's another theory that suggests that smaller human jaw came about either as a result of cooking(eating softer cooked foods means one needs teeth much less with the idea being that as foods become ever more processed, humans will eventually lose all their teeth) or it is suggested that the developing human brain could only come about because of a reduction in size of the jaw(c. the time of asutralopithecus.

[Josh]

How about Gary Taubes' GCBC, where he presents studies that show that zero carb or very low carb is the way to health, and there is the experience of members here.
Humans are paleo by design, so the studies are relevant.

I'd be interested to see those studies, and it's all relevant, but I don't think that we have anything that approaches conclusive scientific evidence for the best diet. It's just too complicated a subject, and for raw paleo worse, cause there just aren't that many long term raw paleo eaters in the world.

On this forum and other forums, highly intelligent people and leaders in their field don't agree on the simple basics of what's a good diet. 'High carb vs low carb', 'Are antioxidants a magic elixir or harmful', 'Should we eat green vegetables', 'Does fructose even cause a big insulin response'

I don't feel I can say anything for sure. I just have my own beliefs and an ongoing process of experimentation.

[William]

William - I will have to try a smudge fire in my backyard next time I am cutting up a animal for my dogs! the flies are always bothering me and I was going to resort to trying to screen a area in. Or would my neighbors get cranky about a smudge fire? How do you make one? They are great about not making a fuss about what I do in my backyard. Once I decided to slaughter 12 roosters myself in my backyard ( I definitely would not recommend doing this in the city) and one got away on me and was running up and down my back lane. My neighbors still crack jokes about it. Never caught the rooster either... not sure what happened to him but I know I wont be trying that again!

The Yukon Indians would make a normal fire, let it burn to coals, then put on green branches of willow bush for smoke. That's the only time I saw, it but it should be the same everywhere. Deciduous stuff only, because evergreens make the wrong smoke for meat. Barbeque would probably do for coals for us.

I had a mental image of an adult trying to run down a chicken. Haha
That was my job when I was a child, we had chickens and I caught it, Father killed it. He didn't like the hatchet method because of the headless chicken's dance of death, or maybe it made the meat tough, so learned to use a knife in the brain.

[cherimoya_kid]

The old fables and fairytales of people's living on animal blood and cow's milk are clearly made-up exaggerated nonsense. People always tell lies and exaggerate. Considering some of those tribes will tell you of how the village founder fought off twenty lions and four pythons to save a baby there, and kill you and eat you for disrespecting one of their Gods... I wouldn't believe everything they say. Maybe the Inuit can exist well on a NEARLY all RAF diet... Inuit look hugely different from us, so much that you might say they're a subspecies.... you have to accept that they are more developed for RAF than we are... otherwise you're creating a contradiction because they only split from us a short time ago and yet we are supposed to have evolved to have a high RAF a short time ago..... ANYWAY....).

 

People DO lie a lot.  That also includes people who say they are fruitarian vegans and still are healthy.  They are either healthy (and not perfectly fruitarian), or they are unhealthy, and lying about that. 

You can check online articles for the Masai diet.  Weston Price and plenty of other people have confirmed their meat/blood/milk diet.  I myself have lived with the Indianos in Costa Rica and noticed their beautiful straight teeth, large jaws, full cheekbones, and wide ribcages.  I assure you, they are NOT vegans, nor do they eat much fruit.

Fruitarians generally need major dental work.

I like my teeth.  I think I'll keep them.  LOL

[RawZi]

http://www.youtube.com/v/LRnzzeKOivc&hl
    There's possibly no other way for these people to live and we probably would never haver survived in their circumstances if we didn't do the same.  I still would rather live on a meat based diet than blood based.  The cow didn't seem to like it.  It reminds me too much of factory farmed milk.

[goodsamaritan]

In the province of Ilocos where my father in law comes from, he says there are people who drink fresh blood from goats just like the masai.

[PaleoPhil]

...On this forum and other forums, highly intelligent people and leaders in their field don't agree on the simple basics of what's a good diet. 'High carb vs low carb', 'Are antioxidants a magic elixir or harmful', 'Should we eat green vegetables', 'Does fructose even cause a big insulin response'

I don't feel I can say anything for sure. I just have my own beliefs and an ongoing process of experimentation.

Excellent point and I agree. Which is why I think the key to Paleo diet is the underlying theoretical model first proposed in a peer-reviewed journal by Boyd Eaton: the model of Paleolithic nutrition based on the mechanism of biologically appropriate vs. biologically discordant diets. This field is very new, so there will be much disagreement and nit picking over exactly which foods are Paleo/appropriate.

The important thing is the underlying principle of biological discordance being a major contributor to the diseases of civilization. So, even though I disagree with much of Eaton's original dietary recommendations (and his own view has evolved), I acknowledge the importance of his theoretical model. (For those who don't believe that evolution or natural biology have as much to do with it, there is the biblical corollary of a Creator-designed diet vs. discordance with the Creator's design, what I sometimes call the Garden-of-Eden diet--so there is still much room for agreement.)

[goodsamaritan]

Excellent point and I agree. Which is why I think the key to Paleo diet is the underlying theoretical model first proposed in a peer-reviewed journal by Boyd Eaton: the model of Paleolithic nutrition based on the mechanism of biologically appropriate vs. biologically discordant diets. This field is very new, so there will be much disagreement and nit picking over exactly which foods are Paleo/appropriate.

The important thing is the underlying principle of biological discordance being a major contributor to the diseases of civilization. So, even though I disagree with much of Eaton's original dietary recommendations (and his own view has evolved), I acknowledge the importance of his theoretical model. (For those who don't believe that evolution or natural biology have as much to do with it, there is the biblical corollary of a Creator-designed diet vs. discordance with the Creator's design, what I sometimes call the Garden-of-Eden diet--so there is still much room for agreement.)

Link to Boyd Eaton's journal?

[PaleoPhil]

Link to Boyd Eaton's journal?

Forewarning: If you hate Eaton and/or Cordain, please skip to the warning and plea below.

It was the New England Journal of Medicine and it's what started the Paleo diet movement (there were precursors, but AFAIK none of them used the terms "Paleolithic diet/nutrition" or "Paleo diet" or proposed a theory of evolutionary nutrition and biological discordance in a scientific manner before this article, though some came close--but people can suggest others if they like). This article inspired Loren Cordain and influenced Ray Audette (author of NeanderThin). Audette influenced the Beyondveg.com folks and semi-popularized the movement, then Cordain's first book (The Paleo Diet) got the first substantial press and expanded the movement further, creating a small niche of the diet world. The movement is still mostly below-the-radar in the popular media and wider diet circles, but it is increasingly influential in the scientific community, generating more and more citations and inspiring an accumulating mountain of research and debate.

The abstract is no longer available online, so here it is:

Eaton, S. Boyd, and Konner, Melvin (1985) "Paleolithic nutrition: a consideration of its nature and current implications." The New England Journal of Medicine, vol. 312, no. 5 (Jan. 31, 1985), pp. 283-289.

Abstract: A detailed literature survey reviews and discusses nutritional aspects of the diets of historical paleolithic societies and their nutritional adequacy in light of current nutritional knowledge. Topics include the evaluation of food consumption habits, ranging from hominids (about 24 to 5 million years ago), through the appearance of archaic homo sapiens (about 400,000 years ago), to the twentieth century; dietary habits of recent hunter-gatherer societies with respect to meat and vegetable consumption; the probable nutrient intakes of paleolithic humans for specific nutrients (energy; fat and fatty acids; cholesterol; sodium and potassium; calcium; ascorbic acid; fiber; and other nutrients), and evidence for nutrient shortages; and a comparison of the late paleolithic diet to the current U.S. diet and the current U.S. dietary recommendations.

The article is not accessible at the link, but it is interesting to see that Eaton's ground-breaking paper has already been cited about 50 times.

Here's an abstract of a later report in which his theory is spelled out more (emphases mine):

Origins and evolution of the Western diet: health implications for the 21st century.
Cordain L, Eaton SB, Sebastian A, Mann N, Lindeberg S, Watkins BA, O'Keefe JH, Brand-Miller J.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Feb;81(2):341-54.

"There is growing awareness that the profound changes in the environment (eg, in diet and other lifestyle conditions) that began with the introduction of agriculture and animal husbandry approximately 10000 y ago occurred too recently on an evolutionary time scale for the human genome to adjust. In conjunction with this discordance between our ancient, genetically determined biology and the nutritional, cultural, and activity patterns of contemporary Western populations, many of the so-called diseases of civilization have emerged. In particular, food staples and food-processing procedures introduced during the Neolithic and Industrial Periods have fundamentally altered 7 crucial nutritional characteristics of ancestral hominin diets: 1) glycemic load, 2) fatty acid composition, 3) macronutrient composition, 4) micronutrient density, 5) acid-base balance, 6) sodium-potassium ratio, and 7) fiber content. The evolutionary collision of our ancient genome with the nutritional qualities of recently introduced foods may underlie many of the chronic diseases of Western civilization."

Warning: don't read his stuff as a prescription on what to eat or bother debating his food recommendations--it's out-of-date and his own views on what foods to eat have changed and continue to evolve as more research is done. Eaton's writings are mainly important now for their historical contribution and for explanation of the basic theory and mechanism that underpins Paleolithic nutrition. It's the only nutritional model proposed in the scientific community with actual predictive value--which is what is important from a scientific perspective.

Loren Cordain is Boyd Eaton's protege and Cordain now leads an international team of scientists that is doing most of the research in this new field (though Phinney, Rosedale and others have also done very important research).

Plea for civility: Cordain tends to be hated on forums like this because of his emphasis on lean commercial meats instead of pasture-fed meats and fats (I recommend the latter), but I have never seen him respond with anything but politeness and reasonableness and he is doing more work to promote Paleo diet research than anyone in the world, so I hope people will refrain from using this as yet another opportunity for personal insults and instead focus on the science. I don't agree with him on some important issues too, but trash fests ruin productive threads like this one.

Thanks,
Phil

[van]

 To superinfinity, from a few pages back.  Just so you can think twice.  I am not fat, never have been. Didn't eat junk food inbetween my fruit meals.  You could only hope to have eaten as much fruit without junk as I've had in my life.  So the point here is I have experience eating fruit as much as probably anyone you'll meet.  Went raw in the early seventies and stuck to it, and swore by eating fruit, dreamed of becoming a real fruitarian time and time again. Try to find one who doesn't cheat.  And if you can, take a good look.  He or she won't be something you will want to emulate.  It's a mind trip many many people have fallen into and continue to do so.  And when I say mind, I mean exactly that.  The same mind that looks for perfection everywhere else but in the present,  'if I only can clean out my years of eating dead food, If I can only find the perfect fruit,  I'll reach enlightenment, or perfect health, or live forever"  Sound familiar?  Fruit and veggies have been preached for decades and decades.  There's nothing new in what they are saying.  And all will forgive the high fructose content over and over because they like sugar and they want to believe in what they believe.        When I mentioned fat burning, I meant being able to use fat a fuel source instead of carbs.  A carb eater, when blood sugar drops will satisfy their blood sugar demands using muscle stores just as readily as fat stores. Fat burning individuals have trained their bodies to burn fat in lieu of muscle.    You often point to one aspect of something and glom onto to it, making it your own reality.  To see something bigger than you actually believe, you are going to have to pull back a bit and allow the inquisitive part of your mind to guide you.   Maybe you could trust me on this point,  you don't know as much as you think you do.  What would it be like hanging out in the "I don't know region" for a while?  Ask a few questions, experiment a little, read about hormonal upsets and their relation to insulin and sugar, carbs, or fructose, however you want to call it.  Study Taubes, or Rosedale, and you'll discover info that isn't in any of the fruit books.        I started when there really wasn't the internet, and thus my exposure was highly limited, so easy to be influenced.    Even raw 'gurus' like Kulvininskus,( spelling), Clement, and Cousins all have given up on fruit.  Good luck

[SuperInfinity]

I'll have a think about your post and look over the things you're referring to and get back to you on it. But I'll warn you that I have basically ZERO respect for "studies" that give people pure fructose in an unnatural way, note a few hormonal changes, note a natural insulin response, and conclude that must mean it's terrible for you. And I mean ZERO, absolutely ZERO, not even a residual mark of respect for that type of study. Paleo is high fruit&veg, very low to high animal protein. I think any other diet is taking a TINY to none amount of tribes and not a very big portion of paleo time given that our brains only became bigger than the apes 700-odd thousand years ago. It's an exceptionally small window in the evolutionary scale... tacked on semi-carnivorous abilities aren't going to be as strong.
 
Just on one thing you said about muscle: I don't want muscle. Muscle is expensive to maintain and causes a higher metabolism because of it. My arms are as slender as twigs. The only muscles I really like (and I'll be honest that I like them a lot) are my calf muscles. But that's just a random aesthetic thing I like about muscles, I don't actually want muscles. You need proteins for muscles, if I ever become a body builder or decide that muscle is a great thing after all, I'll eat lots of protein.

[William]

Forewarning: If you hate Eaton and/or Cordain, please skip to the warning and plea below.



Plea for civility: Cordain tends to be hated on forums like this because of his emphasis on lean commercial meats instead of pasture-fed meats and fats (I recommend the latter), but I have never seen him respond with anything but politeness and reasonableness and he is doing more work to promote Paleo diet research than anyone in the world, so I hope people will refrain from using this as yet another opportunity for personal insults and instead focus on the science. I don't agree with him on some important issues too, but trash fests ruin productive threads like this one.

On the contrary, I see Cordain as a troll because attempting his diet cost me more than ten years of fear, misery and terror. It did not cure the disease, namely the big one - ischemic heart disease.
The damage continued, so that I am now a cripple.

It was not until I tried Lex Rooker's recipe that the symptoms of the disease disappeared like a bad dream on waking.

As for theoretical, or really hypothetical models, Boyd & Cordain require consumption of things that did not exist in the paleolithic age and were not staples of recent known hunter-gatherer societies.

You can't get worse advice than that offered by those who write MD behind their names.

[Sully]

I believe humans have evolved with tools. Chimps make and use tools. They have been found taking branches and stripping it to a spear like tool and jamming it into hollow trees to kill bush babies. So If we have been using and making tools since are ancestors were like chimps. We have had a lot of time to evolve with our tools. This has led us to be mainly carnivorous animals.

All humans do well with land mammals as a food source. Their are people who don't do well with fruit, nuts, veggies, eggs, fish, seafood, legumes, grains, dairy etc. We do horribly with dairy grains legumes because they have not been in the human diet long enough to fully adapt. Some do horrible with eggs fish because humans simply didn't eat a lot of these to adapt. Some do horrible with fruit, nuts, veggies because at some point (over a very long period of time) our ancestors ate  less and less of these foods to the point where they didn't do so well with them.

Just try to eat everything a omnivorous animal like a chimp eats, you will probably die from plant toxins. Wild edible plants to us modern humans are scarce in the wild, during most times of the year even in the tropics edible raw plants will be hard to come by. Domesticated fruit and plants have gotten more and more different from wild plants the longer humans have domesticated them. But in modern times with advanced technology, people can change plant foods even more drastically at a faster pace.

A carnivorous diet takes time and motivation to adapt to when coming off of carbs as your main source of energy because a person is switching it up on the body to process a totally new fuel. Eating only red meat and fat is possible to adapt to for most people as long as they take the time.

[goodsamaritan]

You can't get worse advice than that offered by those who write MD behind their names.

LOL, same experience here.

[SuperInfinity]

I'll be honest with you guys... I'm actually eating muesli+water (it's meant to be a health cereal, has oats, grains, raisins, stuff like that, it should be raw, but unfortunately this has some whey and I think even brown sugar... even dried fruit is not very paleo anyway) for a bit (yesterday I started and I'm getting a very strong craving now I think I'll give in to, it's amazing the addiction these things can have!!!) until I see my dentist again. The reason is that my dentist isn't back until the 16th and I'm growing quite afraid about my teeth. My dentist warned me a lot about the fruit over six months back. I ate a bit of dry fruit as well today which I usually never do and am trying to eat more close-to-raw animal protein as well.
 
I am just concerned about my teeth, let's not forget that people on SAD diets often have their wisdom teeth whipped out before they've left highschool.... they stupidly don't even think of it as a big deal.

Doubt people care, I'd just feel a bit of a fraud not to mention it. Maybe I should have just eaten more nuts.... I do agree buying this cereal probably wasn't a good idea. After yesterday I vaguely decided I wouldn't eat any more of it, but I'm starting to almost get obsessive thoughts about eating it. I also got strong antieptic mouthwash I'm taking as much as possible (yes I know, antiseptic mouthwash isn't great)

[PaleoPhil]

On the contrary, I see Cordain as a troll ...

Hi William,

I value your contribution here and didn't mean that people have to agree with or like any one of the living scientists or diet book authors--whether Cordain, Eaton, Audette, Groves, WAPF, Eades, Phinney, Rosedale, etc. I disagree with each of them on myself on some things and also suffered some permanent damage that could have been avoided if I had tried Lex's approach sooner. I was just trying to find a way to avoid getting sidetracked off the topic with complaints about them. After all, not everyone agrees with Lex's approach either and some people say they were harmed by trying ZC--should they call you and me trolls too?

So, since every one of the diet gurus and scientists is disliked by someone and not everyone seems to do equally well on the same exact foods, is there a way to cite anyone or any study or talk at all about the history of the movement without upsetting some people that you might suggest? I'm open to such suggestions. If not, can we try to move beyond the grousing and deal with the specific issues at hand, using point vs. counter-point supported by both personal experience and researched evidence?

Thanks,
Phil

------

SuperInfinity, Since you eat fish, eggs and green veggies, why not eat those (cooked as little as you can handle; and maybe supplemented with cod liver oil or fish oil--cod liver oil is allegedly good for tooth remineralization) instead of cereal and fruits until your dental visit, if you're still not willing to eat raw land mammals? Sugary cereal with dried fruit may be even worse for your teeth than too much sweet and acidic fresh fruits.

[wodgina]

Sully, your looking fricken massive!

Taken your elephant spear out since you went rabbit hunting a year or so ago?

[William]

So, since every one of the diet gurus and scientists is disliked by someone and not everyone seems to do equally well on the same exact foods, is there a way to cite anyone or any study or talk at all about the history of the movement without upsetting some people that you might suggest? I'm open to such suggestions. If not, can we try to move beyond the grousing and deal with the specific issues at hand, using point vs. counter-point supported by both personal experience and researched evidence?

The arguments for and against zero carb or very low carb are well presented in Gary Taubes' book.
The are other sources for raw, IIRC Howell's "Enzyme Nutrition", modern natural hygeine (www.healself.org), the works of Aajonus Vonderplanitz etc.

But without upsettin people? No.
Diet is personal and emotional, and as we know people would rather die than change. And do.
We are the very few who have the wit and will to do true science, "Seek and ye shall find, and the truth shall make you free".
We know what happens to those who tell the truth - JC, Johann Hus, whistleblowers, Ernst Zundel, Hal Turner and more.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

[Sully]

Sully, your looking fricken massive!

Taken your elephant spear out since you went rabbit hunting a year or so ago?

no, but i got a bb gun i killed a squirrel and my friend got a rabbit with his gun, ive gone down hill a bit with diet and have been working my self back up this past month, eating more meat makes it easier to stay muscular, i have been lifting only twice a week and find that its easier to build muscle with more meat and fat, i would be lifting three days a week with twice as many reps and exercises and with more carbs and less meat and fat and barely make any progress, working my way towards zero carb and eating semi cooked, seared on outside and raw in the middle, no seasonings or salt, semi cooked doesn't seem to cause me to over eat, only  heavy salt and seasonings

your one of the people (along with Lex) who has given me motivation to work my way back, thank you