Author Topic: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?  (Read 9977 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Josh

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« on: August 04, 2009, 10:54:52 pm »
Just curious.

Would you go back to being a paleo hunter(gatherer?) if you could. Assume for these purposes all your friends and family can become your clan. Let's assume that you enjoy good health and don't experience death from childbirth etc, but the risks of hunting or paleo life still exist.

For me, I don't think so. I've grown up being a thinking kind of person, maybe too much, and I crave mental stimulation from books, art media. The things I like doing most are thinking and creativity.

They must have had a wonderful clarity of thought and mental peace which I envy, but I don't think I could ever change fully to that. The neuroses and overstimulation of modern life are too deeply entrenched.

I also envy them greatly the challenges and risks of their life. It might sound naive to say that...of course it would be terrible if your friend got killed by a wolf, but I don't get enough risk in my life and think it's how our minds are designed to live...if not they turn in on themself, or it promotes aggression to others.

Josh

Offline SkinnyDevil

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
  • Gender: Male
  • "...embrace your fear..."
    • View Profile
    • Skinny Devil Music Lab
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2009, 11:22:51 pm »
Josh,

You can become as "paleo" right now as you wish. You just have to get away from major urban centers and find a piece of public land (or buy your own).

Depending upon how one defines "paleo", it is not somehow UN-paleo to enjoy technology. Humans are by nature technological creatures (from fire and pointed sticks to the wheel to nuclear fusion and the WWW).

If it is risk you seek, there are a multitude of activities that can fulfill that need. But I have to ask: Is it risk in general or the rush you get from feeling risky (driving a car doesn't feel as risky as flying, but is more so)? Or, perhaps it's some specific type of risk (catching arrows is a different rush than, say, stepping into a boxing ring...which is a different risk than having indiscriminate sex or eating SAD)? If so, what type of risk do you crave?
-
--
David M. McLean
Skinny Devil Music Lab
http://www.skinnydevil.com

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,830
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2009, 11:23:27 pm »
Nope.  Won't give up my computer and internet connection.
Information at our fingertips is awesome.

I'm cherry picking paleo diet and lifestyle for health results... and it delivers.

Actually, it is never my intention to emulate paleo diet and lifestyle, it just happened to be a coincidence that paleo diet and lifestyle is what works for me.

I dream of having a couple of raw paleolithic children beginning conception...  ;)

Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline JaredBond

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Gender: Male
  • Crap, my real email is blueyoshi55@hotmail.com.
    • View Profile
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 05:16:47 pm »
I wonder about them a lot.  I try to imagine how they could live long happy lives without all of our modern amusements, and use that as a model for what nature intended for us.  Apparently our personal lives were enough to fully satisfy us.

I also wonder what the world would look like today if people were born and raised healthily again.  With our combined knowledge and capabilities of then and now, would we build a generation of superhumans?  What sorts of abilities would they have?  What would they value?  I certainly think people would be more mentally and emotionally stable and independent.  People might be surprised at the sensibility of their children.  I wonder what aspects of our culture would continue, and which would fall by the wayside.  For example, I've looked into low carb baking for the sake of my family.  Maybe we would keep some our current ideas of what food should be like, even if the substance changes.

I also wonder, if these native people were so healthy and smart, how they could be overtaken by the white invaders?  Couldn't they assess the situation and learn to negotiate?  I suppose the white man's value system was just too foreign to them- they had never seen anything like it.  They had never been pressured to think critically, and relied on their emotions.  They were probably also intimidated by their technology, and felt that civilization must know more about life than they did.

I wonder about their somewhat harsh customs.  For example, Weston Price talked about how the initiation rights for Aborigine boys was to have one of their front teeth knocked out with a wooden staff without showing any pain.  I wouldn't want to go through that, but then again, if I was born and raised in that culture, I wouldn't be me.  People are a product of their culture (and perhaps their physical structure as well), aren't they?  Maybe people were better equipped to handle that kind of harshness than I am.  Whose to say what kind of life was better, or more psychologically fulfilling?  I don't think we'd ever go back to that, but I wonder if we'd arrive at some sort of blend.  Either way, I think studying old customs like that gives valuable insight into human psychology.

Overall, I think I'd rather be one of them, if I was born into it that is.  They were more in tune with nature, and more concerned about their own happiness (what else was there to be concerned about?).  I don't think nature would design beings that have the inherent stress and frustrations we have today- it wouldn't make biological sense.  But then again, humans are ambiguous creatures, sort of an anomaly of nature, and nothing is charted out.  Perhaps as our knowledge continues to grow, the future can be the best of all.

Offline Guittarman03

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2009, 01:26:12 pm »
White men would never have stood a chance against the full force of the native americans (so I have read in high school) were it not for the diseases which supposedly killed off like 80 or 90%.  But then again, many of the things I was taught in hs were either incorrect or just plain lies. 

Nonetheless, it brings up a good question, why were the native americans on a raw paleo diet so suseptible to these new diseases?  We would tend to believe here that the main cause of disease is diet, but this one thing does trouble me. 

No way would I go back, or wish the world to return to non-civilization.  Ever watch a discovery channel show about various primitive tribes?  Lots of superstition.  Not even necessarily an ideal diet.  You would look up at the stars and wonder; create myths and legends, but have no knowledge.  You would stare in to the fire at night mesmerized, but not understand it.  Humanity would continue on until we get struck by a meteor and die, get taken out by some terrible fate, or continue for billions of years until the sun blinks out

Also is the consideration of human psychology.  We are curious, and naturally apply our reasoning abilities to create, be it a sling or rocket.  If this were not so, humans would not have developed technology.  It was this sense of discovery and desire for creation, that led to civilization itself.  We would not have been human to sit content in the wild with no desire or attempt for advancement.

And this advancement puts us in an interesting, reallly an amazing moment in time.  We are beginning to grasp in our hands the direction of evolution for not only humans, but all species.  We have the technology to see an impending meteor impact, and to do something about it.  Perhaps one day we will decipher our genome (that is understand it fully), to make longer living, stronger, more intelligent humans.  To purposefully create a superior humanity.  We have the opportunity to understand the universe in a way that gives us power only dreamt about in the wildest fantasies of those who came just centuries before us.

Why would you take all that possibility, promise, hope, opportunity, discovery, and ditch it for a more primitive existence? 
Yes we are flirting with destruction and the possibility of life extinguishment as the result of our newfound power.  But it is this that makes our adventure so unique, so amazing.  True we may meet our death on this path of discovery, but on a long enough timeline how would that outcome be any different?  In other words, without advancement we're going to at some point die anyways.  So what do we have to lose? 

And even more absurd, why would a person knowing all this (and thus able to contribute to a sound outcome), walk away to the jungle to allow less respectful, less capable, covetous, and foolish men hold in their hands the fate of the world and your children?  Our path is to become technologically advanced and raise the consciousness of our fellow humans, thus preserving our species and biosphere indefinitely, or to one day die, whether it be in a nuclear disaster soon, or maybe a comet later, or ultimately at the death of our sun many billions of years from now.
When you consume an organism it loses individuality, but its biological life never ends.  Digestion is merely a transfer of its life to mine.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2009, 05:43:21 pm »
Well, first of all, native americans weren't ever on a raw palaeolithic diet. They ate a small amount of raw meat but mostly ate cooked meat(The Inuit ate much more raw) and native americans in the south would eat plenty of grains etc but no tribe ever ate 90-100% raw after cooking was invented). As regards immunity to disease, even wild animals get disease, it's just that they exhibit none of the modern health problems we have such as diabetes and are less likely to be unhealthy overall as their immune systems are more primed as they are on more natural, raw diets.

The key re disease seems to be the issue of isolation. One reason why palaeolithic tribes seem to have been relatively devoid of disease by comparison to Neolithic settled communities is that they lived in tiny isolated tribes with little contact between them, so there was little chance of disease. By contrast, large, settled communities frequently developed disease due to close proximity to sufferers of pandemics but they developed immunities over time(only to some extent, some of the various civilisations/cultures of china and the roman empire both are said to have eventually collapsed mainly as a result of regular mass plagues over centuries). And, of course, the frequent disease allowed not only protection of some sort to settled peoples but made it much easier to infect isolated tribes which didn't have such immunity.

"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline SkinnyDevil

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
  • Gender: Male
  • "...embrace your fear..."
    • View Profile
    • Skinny Devil Music Lab
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2009, 09:49:47 pm »
Beautifully said, Guitarman.
-
--
David M. McLean
Skinny Devil Music Lab
http://www.skinnydevil.com

William

  • Guest
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2009, 11:11:12 pm »
White men would never have stood a chance against the full force of the native americans (so I have read in high school) were it not for the diseases which supposedly killed off like 80 or 90%.  But then again, many of the things I was taught in hs were either incorrect or just plain lies. 

Nonetheless, it brings up a good question, why were the native americans on a raw paleo diet so suseptible to these new diseases?  We would tend to believe here that the main cause of disease is diet, but this one thing does trouble me. 



Most native americans ate maize, so were sickly as shown by archaeologists reports of their bones; those who ate the most corn, and least meat (Mexico), were also stupid as shown by the Spanish ability to turn them against each other.
Note the modern example of Iraq, where it is reported that Sunni have been turned agains Shiite.
"Divide and rule/conquer" still works.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2009, 05:40:52 am »
Another point:- disease, by itself , was NOT the sole reason for why the native americans were defeated. The Europeans had far better technology(eg:- guns/horses/wheels/superior military tactics etc.) plus  a superior culture(The Renaissance at the time), so that the Indians would have stood no chance even if they hadn't become diseased.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,513
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2009, 07:04:02 am »
The Europeans, given a hundred years or more, would almost certainly have completely conquered the Americas, even without disease...but beating the Natives out of the Eastern and Western Woodlands simply with muskets, etc. would have been a fool's errand in the 1600-1800s.  Cannons and horses are useless in the foothills and mountains of this country, even around where I love.  The guerilla tactics of the natives made them very dangerous, and they knew the territory.  They could survive on food they found and hunted on the spot, plus pemmican, and didn't need to carry much supplies with them, or return to base camp.  They could destroy through attrition so much that it just wouldn't be financially feasible to keep fighting.  It's the same reason that the British gave up.  It was cheaper to quit.

If a bunch of musket-toting redcoats showed up here I might have them wishing for jolly Old England.  I know these woods around my house like the back of my hand.  These extremely steep hills/valleys are heavily wooded and have great hiding spots.  Bows and arrows are equal to muskets in the close-quarters fighting forced by the denseness of the forest.  However, machine guns would be a different story, as would aircraft, etc. 

However, it's a moot point.  The same cross-cultural exchange of goods/services/money/knowledge that speeds up technological advances also spreads diseases, and it was both better tech and better immunity that allowed the Europeans to dominate the Americas in the long run, the way I see it.  It's pointless to separate the two. 

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2009, 05:00:53 pm »
You're overlooking a few obvious points. Even with just muskets, the European settlers were easily able to divide and conquer the Natives as the latter were all split up between different tribes/clans/groups and even fought against each other all the time, so all the colonists had to do was ally themselves with 1 tribe, then another etc. until all were pacified completely(and to live off the land does require a much smaller population if moving all the time away from enemies). And artillery was definitely available even before the Napoleonic era, so that would have been very useful on the Plains.

Re British:- As I recall, the British almost won, it was only because of the overlong supply-lines between the UK and the US that prevented conquest. And, given that the British-friendly Canadians beat back the US colonists in 1775-6 and then again in the war of 1812, it was more of a close thing than people realise.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

William

  • Guest
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2009, 08:15:08 pm »
You're overlooking a few obvious points. Even with just muskets, the European settlers were easily able to divide and conquer the Natives as the latter were all split up between different tribes/clans/groups and even fought against each other all the time, so all the colonists had to do was ally themselves with 1 tribe, then another etc. until all were pacified completely(and to live off the land does require a much smaller population if moving all the time away from enemies). And artillery was definitely available even before the Napoleonic era, so that would have been very useful on the Plains.

Re British:- As I recall, the British almost won, it was only because of the overlong supply-lines between the UK and the US that prevented conquest. And, given that the British-friendly Canadians beat back the US colonists in 1775-6 and then again in the war of 1812, it was more of a close thing than people realise.

It was not the European colonists, it was the Imperial government policy to divide the natives against each other. Still is.

There were no British-friendly Canadians until after 1815, not surprising because the only white residents of British North America were French. It was the French who were known as Canadians at the time.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2009, 03:40:48 am »
It was not the European colonists, it was the Imperial government policy to divide the natives against each other. Still is.

There were no British-friendly Canadians until after 1815, not surprising because the only white residents of British North America were French. It was the French who were known as Canadians at the time.

Err, I may not be Canadian, but I do know, from history, that there were plenty of loyalists to the British Crown in Canada who definitely weren't French. The war of 1812 is just 1 example.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Raw Rob

  • Boar Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 96
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2009, 11:50:42 am »
"No European who has tasted Savage Life can afterwards bear to live in our societies."

I just wanted to add some perspectives from Benjamin Franklin to this thread. (I know Native Americans were not paleo, but still, Franklin's observations are very telling in regards to this thread.)

This is taken from: http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/FFchp5.html

While Indians did not seem to have much inclination to exchange their culture for the Euro-American, many Euro-Americans appeared more than willing to become Indians at this time:

    When an Indian child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and makes one Indian Ramble with them, there is no persuading him ever to return. And that this is not natural [only to Indians], but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and lived awhile among them, tho' ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet within a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of Life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them.

Franklin followed with an example. He had heard of a person who had been "reclaimed" from the Indians and returned to a sizable estate. Tired of the care needed to maintain such a style of life, he had turned it over to his younger brother and, taking only a rifle and a matchcoat, "took his way again to the Wilderness." Franklin used this story to illustrate his point that "No European who has tasted Savage Life can afterwards bear to live in our societies." Such societies, wrote Franklin, provided their members with greater opportunities for happiness than European cultures. Continuing, he said:

    The Care and Labour of providing for Artificial and fashionable Wants, the sight of so many Rich wallowing in superfluous plenty, whereby so many are kept poor and distress'd for Want, the Insolence of Office . . . the restraints of Custom, all contrive to disgust them with what we call civil Society.

Offline Josh

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2009, 08:31:09 pm »
Interesting. However, that is comparing the hunter gatherers with the restrictive civilised society of the time. I think I would choose the Native Americans over English or US culture at the time.

Seems to me like with our society where we are pretty free, can have our own subcultures and can organise our lives how we want or at least try it's a much tougher call.

William

  • Guest
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2009, 10:22:43 pm »

Seems to me like with our society where we are pretty free, can have our own subcultures and can organise our lives how we want or at least try it's a much tougher call.

We are not free.
Think of "The Matrix".

Offline SkinnyDevil

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
  • Gender: Male
  • "...embrace your fear..."
    • View Profile
    • Skinny Devil Music Lab
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2009, 11:03:53 pm »
We are not free.
Think of "The Matrix".

In what way are we not free?
-
--
David M. McLean
Skinny Devil Music Lab
http://www.skinnydevil.com

William

  • Guest
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2009, 07:01:46 am »
See the movie.

Offline Guittarman03

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2009, 02:17:27 pm »
Freedom is something that occurs internally.  Liberty is the full expression of free will in the external world.  We all have varying degrees of freedom within ourselves.  Some are complete slaves to their instinctual and emotional nature, neglecting almost entirely the rational mind.  They are ruled by passion and lust, and it leads to pain and suffering which are the evidence of death in varying degrees.

I have very divided feelings about the amount of liberty we have in America.  You have the liberty to decide which restaurant you will eat at, where you live, what job you would like, the kind of car you drive, what size flat screen you want,, you get it??  This is merely the illusion of liberty, not liberty itself.

You don't have the liberty to save up for a secure future without our government and banking system robbing a sizeable portion (or all of it) through taxes, inflation, and the boom/bust cycle created by our monetary policy.  You don't have the liberty of a speedy trial, no everything gets lost in litigation that takes years to sort out, and ,many have been denied the right of habeas corpus for years now.  You don't have the liberty to decide what you will put in your body - raw milk, marijuana, vaccinations - it's all decided for you by the state.  In many places, you don't have the liberty to decide how you will educate your children.  The list goes on and on.

So we've accepted the illusion of liberty for the real thing itself.  And why does this happen?  Because our nation(s)' people have willfully relinquished the source of liberty; and that source is freedom, which can only occur internally.  We've become slaves to luxury and passion, we've neglected imagination, deduction, and true examination/questioning of authority and commonly held beliefs.  And this common disease, this common enslavement of the mind -- given willfully, even if given subconsiously, freedom can only be given not taken -- this willful enslavement has allowed unscrupulous men to take advantage and take away liberties little by little.  It was merely a reflection of the internal state in to which we were/are? falling. 

The source of enduring liberty is springs from the hearts and minds of free individuals.  When enough people demand it, liberty can be restored, or at least increased.  Our nation was founded on these very principles, it is why the Constitution was written, to limit the power of government so that it would not impinge upon the liberty of individuals.  Great though it is, it is backed by nothing except the resolve of free men and women to enforce the standards of liberty which are clearly spelled out.  The only way to do this is to get involved in the political process, as tedious and difficult as that sounds. 

I don't have time tonight to get in to all of it, but maybe I'll post some more info in the off topics about how we can actually do something other than just wish, debate, hope.   

When you consume an organism it loses individuality, but its biological life never ends.  Digestion is merely a transfer of its life to mine.

Offline SkinnyDevil

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
  • Gender: Male
  • "...embrace your fear..."
    • View Profile
    • Skinny Devil Music Lab
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2009, 08:12:06 pm »
See the movie.

I own the movie. Were you making a joke about us not being free, or are you serious?

Quote from: Guittarman03
You don't have the liberty to save up for a secure future without our government and banking system robbing a sizeable portion (or all of it) through taxes, inflation, and the boom/bust cycle created by our monetary policy.  You don't have the liberty of a speedy trial....to decide what you will put in your body - raw milk, marijuana, vaccinations - it's all decided for you by the state.  In many places, you don't have the liberty to decide how you will educate your children.  The list goes on and on.

So we've accepted the illusion of liberty for the real thing itself.

On a certain level I agree with this completely. We, the people, have handed the reigns over to a pack of thieves, trading freedoms for the illusion of safety; making deals with the devil in the name of honorables like "equality" and "fairness" when what we really want is a free ride. This clearly needs to be addressed.

That said, the real illusion is one we've bought into that says because regulations are in place, we are somehow not free.

That there are negative consequences attached to an act does not mean we are not free to act. This is no small distinction, because in saying "we are not free", we immediately limit the degree to which we feel we can make a meaningful change. Only by accepting that, despite all the attempts to limit human action, we are free to do as we please can we fully embrace and exercise that freedom.

I will now step down from the soapbox.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 08:32:58 pm by SkinnyDevil »
-
--
David M. McLean
Skinny Devil Music Lab
http://www.skinnydevil.com

William

  • Guest
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2009, 06:46:28 am »
I own the movie. Were you making a joke about us not being free, or are you serious?



William Cooper was free, as were Jesus Christ and Johann Hus and the Branch Davidians. Paleoman was probably free.

Most of us will not pay the price, even if we know the difference.

Offline invisible

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
    • View Profile
Re: Would you become a paleolithic human if you could?
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2009, 10:09:14 am »
I guess the thing is, If you went back to Paleo times, would you have the knowledge of what you have now? If I just lived a life in Paleo times unaware of what modern life is like it seems quite nice. However I am used to today's technology, today's lifestyle and culture that I doubt I could just give it up. If given the choice I would prefer to just go back to when I was born and follow a raw paleo diet from as early as possible to live in today's world but with paleo-like health.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk