ALL VACCINES are dangerous to human health. Reject them ALL.

[William]

Paleo Man did not live in crowded cities, where the swine flu, or typhoid, or the Plague, or AIDS could spread easily from SAD-eating person to person.
Sickies fly from continent to continent all the time now.
In Paleo times, the spread of disease was a much slower process, if it happened at all, because there is no evidence that there was any disease.
The fact is, most really dangerous human infectious diseases came from animals. AIDS, anthrax, smallpox, mad cow disease...these all come from domesticated/neolithic animals.

There, I fixed it.

It seems like only the English get the human variant of Mad Cow disease, so we have a better chance of being struck by lightning/global warming/black hole/big bang or whatever scare story is favoured at the moment. I thought the other diseases mentioned come from vaccines.

[cherimoya_kid]

It seems like only the English get the human variant of Mad Cow disease, so we have a better chance of being struck by lightning/global warming/black hole/big bang or whatever scare story is favoured at the moment. I thought the other diseases mentioned come from vaccines.

Yes, the Plague comes from a vaccine, William.   Typhoid fever and smallpox do, too.

Never mind that those diseases existed hundreds/thousands of years before vaccines.  What they actually did was fly back in time and give vaccines to people and animals, thus causing those diseases.  Yeah, that's what happened.

I want to know what you're smoking besides tobacco, because, whatever it is, it is amazing stuff.

William, I would ask you to address why wild animal populations, on all-raw, species-appropriate diets, are most definitely prone to deadly outbreaks of disease...unless you'd like to admit that diet alone cannot protect you from all infectious disease.

I think it's funny that you use all the extra time you have (from NOT having a job) to get online and troll sincere seekers who actually have full-time jobs because they have to work to eat. What does that say about you, though, that you do that? 

[RawZi]

Pinguvore just doesn't sound right, especially since there is a place called Pingo National Park in Stefansson country.
http://www.pc.gc.ca/docs/v-g/pingo/index_e.asp - Note the weather!

    Animals get good fat in the Winter.  It's cold there.  Maybe that would have something to do with it.

[alphagruis]

Paleo Man did not live in crowded cities, where the swine flu, or typhoid, or the Plague, or AIDS could spread easily from person to person.  People fly from continent to continent all the time now.  In Paleo times, the spread of disease was a much slower process.  The fact is, most really dangerous human infectious diseases came from animals. AIDS, anthrax, smallpox, mad cow disease...these all come from animals.  In paleo times, animals were not domesticated, so this particular method could not happen.  I have nothing against domestication of livestock, I just realize that we have to be prepared for the diseases they can give to humans.

Well, but paleo man too was actually in close contact with animal species since he was a hunter who butchered his preys after the kills. So one may wonder why so many infectious diseases appeared just with the neolithic revolution and were apparently unknown before. I think that crowding explains rapid spread of diseases but not their initial appearence. It is much more likely that the major change in diet of both humans and domesticated livestock as compared to their "savage" paleolithic counterparts is a major factor.

I do not believe that the usual pasteurian theory of microorganisms as the "causes" of infectious diseases is satisfactory. I am rather inclined to believe that for a substantial number of infectious diseases it is more appropriate to look at the proliferation of germs or bacteria as a symptom, the real cause being intoxication from inappropriate diets. Bacteria are capable to use the toxic molecules ( toxic for us or other higher animals not for them) as food. "Useful" bacteria or viruses actually, as pointed out by Hannibal, which are symbionts rather than parasites as long as the toxic level remains below a certain threshold.

Since i am on raw paleo (11 years) i had no flu to be compared to the previous "cooked" period where i "caught" one almost every winter.

Of course, i agree, this does by no means imply that we can get rid of all infectious diseases just by diet. Some microorganisms are probably really harmful and cause severe diseases. Malaria seems to be a good example.        

[goodsamaritan]

Yes, the Plague comes from a vaccine, William.   Typhoid fever and smallpox do, too.

Never mind that those diseases existed hundreds/thousands of years before vaccines.  What they actually did was fly back in time and give vaccines to people and animals, thus causing those diseases.  Yeah, that's what happened.

I want to know what you're smoking besides tobacco, because, whatever it is, it is amazing stuff.

William, I would ask you to address why wild animal populations, on all-raw, species-appropriate diets, are most definitely prone to deadly outbreaks of disease...unless you'd like to admit that diet alone cannot protect you from all infectious disease.

I think it's funny that you use all the extra time you have (from NOT having a job) to get online and troll sincere seekers who actually have full-time jobs because they have to work to eat. What does that say about you, though, that you do that?  

Herbal medicine, drug medicine, electro medicine sometimes works to cure parasite infestation or bacterial infestation diseases.

Please do not confuse herbs - drugs - electromedicine with the false notion of VACCINES, the ones pushed to be given at childhood... that in their MARKETING GUESS or MARKETING LIES the drug companies believe in... say that vaccines prevent diseases.    Vaccines do not confer immunity.  Instead vaccines injure and sometimes kill people.

The cute hypothesis of vaccination is just plain false.  See evidence previously given and studies done by countries who did not manufacture the vaccines, for example India found out in their massive 1970s study that tuberculosis vaccine is bullsh*t. Same as the Philippine Tuberculosis Society asked for funding to research new Tuberculosis vaccines in the early 21st century because the current BCG / tuberculosis vaccine does not work.

The cumulative damage, the danger, the epidemic damage of vaccines is very easily and convincingly demonstrated by Dr. Moulden http://www.myhealthblog.org/2009/09/22/vaccinations-mankinds-greatest-sin-dr-moulden-at-quebec-health-freedom-conference-12-september-2009/

The source of the vaccination lies come from the companies that produce the vaccines and thus the country of origin of these vaccines where this vaccination profits originate and highly lobbied through brainwashing of their own people including their own industry people.  As explained by Dr. Moulden in the conference, the evil of vaccination lies emanates from the USA.

[William]

William, I would ask you to address why wild animal populations, on all-raw, species-appropriate diets, are most definitely prone to deadly outbreaks of disease...unless you'd like to admit that diet alone cannot protect you from all infectious disease.

They are made of the same stuff as we; to properly support life with minimal stress they too would have to eat pemmican, and they don't, so the answer is malnutrition.
Malnourished animals lack the mighty human immune system, so not surprising that they succumb to the periodic viral infections.
You are going to love this: those viruses (virii?) come from outer space. Those recorded by Chinese astronomers for thousands of years happen when Earth passes through the plasma tail of Venus.
Gives a new meaning to the old phrase "venereal disease".

[alphagruis]

They are made of the same stuff as we; to properly support life with minimal stress they too would have to eat pemmican, and they don't, so the answer is malnutrition.

Very very funny.

If the animals too "have to eat pemmican" to be healthy, where do you think should the meat and fat in their pemmican come from?

From outer space as the viruses? 

[alphagruis]

The cute hypothesis of vaccination is just plain false.  

I agree. The theory invoked to support vaccination is unfortunately utterly wrong, as is the rampant genetic determinism behind molecular biology and modern genetic tinkering. The latter as well as the design of vaccines and many other drugs are just highly profitable engineering, based on bad science.

There is not yet any convincing evidence for positive effects of vaccination and the scream of outrage or various indignant responses to this statement should definitely just fall on deaf ears.   

[TylerDurden]

The claim made that humans would have been as affected by disease from contact with slain wild animals as Neolithic peoples in contact with domesticated animals doesn't wash. For one thing, Neolithic peoples would have had much longer contact-time with infected animals thus encouraging increased chance of infection, but also hunters do notice whether an animal is sickly or not, much of the time, and avoid them. Oh, and eating infected meat isn't as bad as one  would think as the digestive system is pretty effective at destroying the pathogen, it's the contact-issue that matters.

[alphagruis]

My point was precisely to point out that it is by no means obvious that it's essentially the contact-issue that matters, when we are looking for the real cause of many infectious maladies. I agree, in a crowd of neolithic or modern people, it may considerably accelerate the spread of various infectious diseases. But it can't explain how and why the first animal or people got sick, the real cause being rather malnutrition and/or poisoning.

And more importantly it can't explain how and why many individuals come in contact with the germ but don't get sick at all ! 25 % of AIDS infected poeple just don't develop any symptom, yet they clearly bear the retrovirus.

Obviously the usual pasteurian view of sickness "just caused by infection" is at least highly questionable.  

[cherimoya_kid]

Malnourished animals lack the mighty human immune system, so not surprising that they succumb to the periodic viral infections.

William, if it's as black and white as "nutrition cures all infectious disease", then why were Europeans so much more resistant to smallpox, cholera, etc. than the Native Americans?  Those diseases wiped out millions of natives, but the Europeans, who ate, if anything, a worse diet, were much more immune.

Even if you're right, and a perfect diet cures all infectious disease, I don't care (although you're not right, and in fact are clearly insane on this issue).  Do you know why?  Because I can't easily GET perfect food.  I have to make do with previously-frozen fish/shellfish, fruit that is not tree-ripened. meat from grass-fed animals that weren't eating grass from perfect soil, etc., etc. These are simply facts.  Besides which, there are man-made toxins in our environment and food. 

[Hannibal]

William, if it's as black and white as "nutrition cures all infectious disease", then why were Europeans so much more resistant to smallpox, cholera, etc. than the Native Americans?  Those diseases wiped out millions of natives, but the Europeans, who ate, if anything, a worse diet, were much more immune.

I think that isn't black and white.
But you have to know that Europeans have taken or killed all but all of their traditional food and have given them some nasty substitutes like sugar and white flour - this transition made them very weak

[goodsamaritan]

William, if it's as black and white as "nutrition cures all infectious disease", then why were Europeans so much more resistant to smallpox, cholera, etc. than the Native Americans?  Those diseases wiped out millions of natives, but the Europeans, who ate, if anything, a worse diet, were much more immune.

Even if you're right, and a perfect diet cures all infectious disease, I don't care (although you're not right, and in fact are clearly insane on this issue).  Do you know why?  Because I can't easily GET perfect food.  I have to make do with previously-frozen fish/shellfish, fruit that is not tree-ripened. meat from grass-fed animals that weren't eating grass from perfect soil, etc., etc. These are simply facts.  Besides which, there are man-made toxins in our environment and food. 

We are striving in raw paleo forum to help each other get almost perfect food.   

[alphagruis]

I think that isn't black and white.
But you have to know that Europeans have taken or killed all but all of their traditional food and have given them some nasty substitutes like sugar and white flour - this transition made them very weak

Yes, the available evidence of just germs brought about by Europeans as the mass killers of native Americans should probably be re-examined in the light of a non pasteurian view of infectious diseases. Jared Diamond, in particular has popularized this presently dominant point of view in his (interesting, i recommend them) books. But as far as i can remember, he is the son of a doctor and at any rate certainly educated in the usual pasteurian framework and he is also most likely not a raw paleo dieter that had the opportunity to observe on himself the astonishing healing effects of such a diet. So he, as as well as many scientists, hardly can imagine that anything else than germs may be of relevance (such new nasty foods, poisoning, alcohol, malnutrition as a consequence plundering, etc) and could well be involved in the infectious diseases that ravaged the natives.

If anyone has links to the original scientific archeologic evidence in this respect, i would be very interested in examining it with non pasteurian bias. Thanks.



    

[William]

Very very funny.

If the animals too "have to eat pemmican" to be healthy, where do you think should the meat and fat in their pemmican come from?

From outer space as the viruses? 

You appear to assume that they are normally in perfect health; this is an assumption which is not proven.

"You are what you eat" is an old saying, still said because it is true.
We are learning what happens to us when we eat a more perfect diet, we don't know what would happen to other species if a hypothetically perfect diet were attempted.

[alphagruis]

You appear to assume that they are normally in perfect health; this is an assumption which is not proven.

"You are what you eat" is an old saying, still said because it is true.
We are learning what happens to us when we eat a more perfect diet, we don't know what would happen to other species if a hypothetically perfect diet were attempted.

I don't assume anything, actually. I'm just wondering, if you're right indeed, how our biosphere might well work to allow all animals "to eat pemmican and be in perfect health". Seems to clash front to front with elementary ecology. 

[William]

William, if it's as black and white as "nutrition cures all infectious disease", then why were Europeans so much more resistant to smallpox, cholera, etc. than the Native Americans?  Those diseases wiped out millions of natives, but the Europeans, who ate, if anything, a worse diet, were much more immune.

Even if you're right, and a perfect diet cures all infectious disease, I don't care (although you're not right, and in fact are clearly insane on this issue).  Do you know why?  Because I can't easily GET perfect food.  I have to make do with previously-frozen fish/shellfish, fruit that is not tree-ripened. meat from grass-fed animals that weren't eating grass from perfect soil, etc., etc. These are simply facts.  Besides which, there are man-made toxins in our environment and food. 

Europeans who were sensitive to such diseases died out generations before.  IIRC it was mentioned in the book "Guns, Germs and Steel" .

Perfect food is not possible IMO, but we can do a lot better if we learn what "food" is.

[cherimoya_kid]

Europeans who were sensitive to such diseases died out generations before.  IIRC it was mentioned in the book "Guns, Germs and Steel" .

Perfect food is not possible IMO, but we can do a lot better if we learn what "food" is.

So you admit that genetic resistance to disease is a big factor in surviving infectious disease, then?  It is the height of foolishness to refuse all vaccines automatically, in my opinion. Some are much better/worse, surely, in terms of effectiveness and side effects.  To refuse them all, without examining each one for side effects and efficacy, is a poor choice.

As far as perfect food goes, you're preaching to the choir, William.

[goodsamaritan]

It is the height of foolishness to refuse all vaccines automatically, in my opinion. Some are much better/worse, surely, in terms of effectiveness and side effects.  To refuse them all, without examining each one for side effects and efficacy, is a poor choice.

My wife and I did our due diligence with regards to each and every vaccine being pushed to our children by our pediatricion.

We made our table, checklist, researched and crossed out each and every vaccine that turned out to be fake, detrimental, useless.... it so happened that ALL the VACCINES being recommended to our children from 0 to 2 years old turned out to be scams, wrong, harmful according to our research and standards of truth.

And this was us coming in from the regular horde of people who blindly and fearfully accepted vaccinations.  We credit our son's school Manila Waldorf who discouraged vaccinations and sold books that opposed vaccinations.  At first my reaction was just as blindly fearful as any parent of the masses, but when I read, researched and asked the right questions on the internet, the opposing side came out.

We compared the opposing camps of pro vaccination vs against vaccination and after doing our due diligence came up with the conclusion that indeed all vaccinations are harmful.

Our first born got vaccinated up to 2 years.
Our 2nd born got vaccinated up to his 6 months... this was when we finished our due diligence.
Our 3rd born got zero vaccinations.

Of course our first born is the one who get sick of those diseases, but our 3rd born is the most healthy.  It could be a combination of our progress to the right path of better health.

[RawZi]

It is the height of foolishness to refuse all vaccines automatically, in my opinion. Some are much better/worse, surely, in terms of effectiveness and side effects.  To refuse them all, without examining each one for side effects and efficacy, is a poor choice.

    I used to think like that.  I've examined too many vaccines now, and understand how much more unnatural vaccines are especially childhood ones, unnatural in such a way that is to the detriment of the being.  I have to assume the vaccines are all unhealthy now.  I still research should I be offered vaccines, but I don't come from the assumption that they will likely build my immune system or do no harm.  I give the benefit of the doubt now, that it may go either way.  I do not accept them blindly now.  My eyes see them. 

    Truthfully no one has offered me a vaccine in maybe seven or more years.  They offered me a flu vaccine.  I was vegan.  I knew my body had bad reactions to animal foods.  I just replied, "I'm allergic to eggs", and they immediately let me go and went for the next person, no problem at all.

    I'm not you though.  I've always had a heightened immune response, that is only now regulated with RAF.  Vaccines may be good for you, and just not good for me.     

Europeans who were sensitive to such diseases died out generations before.  IIRC it was mentioned in the book "Guns, Germs and Steel" .

    What's IIRC?

[djr_81]

    What's IIRC?

If I recall correctly.

[redfulcrum]

Vaccines are for poor immune systems.  Real bugs are for strong immune systems.  I'll take my chances with any disease like the roulette table.  I truly believe if you're healthy enough you can take on any sickness.  I remember when I first went raw I caught E.Coli or something.  I had diarrhea with blood for 2 weeks.  Whatever, I kept going with the diet.  Last time I had digestion issues.  To me, that was my vaccination.  I thinking catching bugs is a good thing.  All you can do is stick to nature and she'll roll the dice.  No amount of meds or vaccines are going to change that.  You can't get around mother nature.  You might not get that disease, but you'll create some other problems when you try to bypass her. 

[Guittarman03]

For those who are concerned about the legalities of vaccinations:

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/legally_avoid_shots.htm

Apparently the truth is that no workplace or school can require you or your children to be vaccinated.  They will tell you otherwise until they're blue in the face, but the law is on your side.

[afroza]

Old thread but such an important subject!
After years of studying all I could find on vaccines, my firm belief is this:
- Vaccines does not work (in what they say to accomplish). Oftenly outbreaks of disease have happened just after vaccination in the same areas. It is based on false science.
- Vaccines are highly poisonous substances.
- Disease (infections etc.) is a natural part of life, and evolution (weak, malnurioushed individuals dies, strong, healthy ind. gets stronger by it and the spieces as a whole gets healthier).

Excavations show that humans did not have diseases before we started agriculture 10 000- 12 000 years before. The biggest research on the subject where published last year, I can´t find it now on internet, it was some big American university who conducted it over several years and four continents. For example, it shows that infectious disease was not brought to America by Europeans, they already had TBC and syphilis, among others. They started having them when they gave up being hunter gatherer and started growing maize and such. Occupied by the Europens and not being able to hunt at all anymore obviously led to an even worse diet and more disease.

I have two children, 5 and a half and 1 and a half. They have not had any vaccines. We travel in "dangerous" areas in Asia, and my kids are the healthiest kids around. The locals have all been vaccinated and are sick all the time.

If you are thinking about taking vaccines for yourself or your kids, do the reading first, there is lot´s of good info out there. Personally, I would never let anyone near me or my kids with a syringe!

[kurite]

But what happens if you dont get the polio vaccine and you get polio???