bowel movements

[TylerDurden]

Your comments seem to imply that DelFuego is massively exaggerating or lying. I think it possible he may be exaggerating a bit, but I doubt that he is massively exaggerating or lying. I wouldn't dismiss what he's saying so easily. Besides, as several people have pointed out, he doesn't cook the meat, and I don't believe he cooks the fat either. So please stop saying that he does unless you can provide evidence..

Well, all past comments I read re DelFuego, stated that he cooked the fat at low temperatures, no mention of raw last I checked. Seems straightforward. As regards the claims re exaggeration, DelFuego has made similiar extreme claims before(like Charles and the Bear for that matter) so I tend to be somewhat sceptical. I don't mind claims re proportionately smaller stools being reported on a ZC diet but claims of perfect digestion(even with genuinely raw animal fat)  are just too extreme to be taken seriously.

[carnivore]

I've eaten raw meat by itself ;and I've eaten heated grassfed suet during a zero-carb trial
(to which I developed a nasty reaction each time I ate the fat). Since suet is often used as the fat for pemmican, that counts.

Tallow made at lowtemp is not the same thing as cooked tallow.
I definitely can't tolerate cooked tallow (burps, headach, etc.), while I have no problem with lowtemp tallow (melted).

We should use another word for pemmican made from lowtemp tallow, ("raw pemmican" ?) that can't be kept for long outside the fridge, to distinguish it from traditional pemmican (cooked tallow) that can be kept for years.

[William]

There seems to be some confusion here. Most  pemmican-makers I've talked to have, of necessity, admitted that the fat was rendered at low (COOKING) temperatures, usually 110 degrees fahrenheit(above the 104 degrees limit). And Lex has admitted that to make  long-lasting pemmican , you have to increase the heating of the fat to even higher levels.

fat /= meat

When pemmican is properly made, the fat is at low enough temp that it does not cook the meat.

[William]

I've eaten raw meat by itself ;and I've eaten heated grassfed suet during a zero-carb trial
(to which I developed a nasty reaction each time I ate the fat). Since suet is often used as the fat for pemmican, that counts.

As for foolish suggestions for me to eat pemmican for a whole
month, I've already eaten plenty of cooked animal fat in the past decades for me to know exactly
how harmful it is for me and I shudder at the thought of having to eat a diet of mostly melted animal fat especially while having to undergo the same horrendous
 zero-carb ordeal that I endured in past experiments. This pemmican ordeal is yet another variation and endangering my health is not an option as I'd much rather be able to get up in the mornings without that awful cooked-fat-induced hangover feeling.
Plus, while I haven't been eating only sh*t
 or pemmican for 5 full years, I think I can safely state that I don't need such "experience" in order to criticise coprophagia or the consumption of pemmican or similiar dubious practices.

Aha! The plot clears.
I wondered why I so often get what I think of as "low-fat" headaches, but from the above comments, it is what I've suspected - there is something wrong with the fat we've used.
I know that the only fat available to me is from commercial fodder-fed animals, which is why it tasted unpleasant. There is also the recommendation to filter the tallow with a double paper towel, and I know that the solid bits are bad for me. (connective tissue = overcooked protein)

Either way the stuff is effectivley poisoned, and the way around this is to get truly pure or grass-fed fat.

In the U.S.A. this is available from Slanker's, maybe USWellness, and delfuego has found local sources of grassfed fat. So that's why the lucky have no problems/such good results with eating pemmican - it is the original recipe.

For the rest of us, nasty reaction, "burps, headach, etc.", hangover feeling, and thoughts of coprophagia are our lot until we can find pure fat. I haven't found any yet, but the benefits of pemmican diet have been enough to keep me eating it. So far.

So the quest for fat becomes the quest for pure fat.

[PaleoPhil]

Well, all past comments I read re DelFuego, stated that he cooked the fat at low temperatures, no mention of raw last I checked. Seems straightforward. As regards the claims re exaggeration, DelFuego has made similiar extreme claims before(like Charles and the Bear for that matter) so I tend to be somewhat sceptical. I don't mind claims re proportionately smaller stools being reported on a ZC diet but claims of perfect digestion(even with genuinely raw animal fat)  are just too extreme to be taken seriously.

I thought you had already agreed that under 80 degrees celsius is not cooked? Please clarify.

I don't mind skepticism, I just don't care for unsubstantiated accusations. If you have evidence, present it. I don't recall DelFuego's exact claims on temps at this time, so I'm open minded. All I'm asking is that we don't ridicule first and check later. What say we reverse that process? Even better, let's forego the ridicule if we can, as I don't find it very constructive. I don't fancy flame wars with other forums. Yes, I know, I've behaved that way myself in the past, ignoring my own initial warning against it, and I regret it and apologize for it. It may get us hits, but in retrospect I realized it's largely a waste of time and distracts us from more constructive pursuits.

I agree with Carnivore that we need different terminology to be more sensitive to Tyler's concerns. "Raw pemmican" and "raw jerky" sounds fine to me, and I've been using "melted suet" instead of "tallow." Are these terms acceptable and more understandable to you, Tyler? Hopefully this should convey that we are not cooking the beef or fat and have no interest whatsoever in long-term preservation.

William, copraphagia is only recommended for plant-heavy diets deficient in B12 and other vital nutrients.   Are any of the EatWild Canadian producers (http://www.eatwild.com/products/canada.html) near you?

[William]

William, copraphagia is only recommended for plant-heavy diets deficient in B12 and other vital nutrients.   Are any of the EatWild Canadian producers (http://www.eatwild.com/products/canada.html) near you?

I took TD's reference to coprophagia to mean that commercial cattle fodder has had and may yet include DPW, which is dried poultry waste. The stomach turns, but fortunately I have a strong one.

I've been assured by two  farmers so far that grassfed and finished oxen never have fat other than kidney because of the short grass-growing season. I think that it is more likely that they just have too many head of cattle for the amount of land, but whatever, they are all doing it.

[TylerDurden]

For the rest of us, nasty reaction, "burps, headach, etc.", hangover feeling, and thoughts of coprophagia are our lot until we can find pure fat. I haven't found any yet, but the benefits of pemmican diet have been enough to keep me eating it. So far.

So the quest for fat becomes the quest for pure fat.

I'm afraid, William, you've got the wrong end of the stick. The fat I was using in those zero-carb trials(and the heated suet) came from a particularly high quality 100% grassfed/.organic source (which I sadly can't access any more)- simply put, eating absolutely any cooked animal fat, regardless of whether it's grassfed or not, will leave me with a hangover feeling some time later, with worse effects happening if I eat more than a tiny amount.

[alphagruis]

High quality raw pemmican (without the wild fruits as in traditional pemmican) might well be almost completely digestible. In particular the below 40°C rendered fat is expected to be quite pure intact fatty acids and so may be 100% resorbed. Nearly absent BM on a pure raw pemmican diet seems therefore not unlikely. I don't know if it's good or bad but it seems logical.

Yet, to come back to the initial question of Razmatazz one may also recall that the colon is probably a major excretory organ. This is or was at least the opinion of Seignalet, Burger and others based on isolated bowel section experiments on dogs.

http://www.tacomanatural.com/articles2.html

So BM may well take place even in the absence of any digestive waste for instance because of detox as suggested by William.

    

[TylerDurden]

I thought you had already agreed that under 80 degrees celsius is not cooked? Please clarify.

Most definitely not, indeed I've only recently complained that UK honey could be erroneously labelled raw despite being heated to 80 degrees Celsius for a short while.The most commonly cited  maximum temperature cited on a raw food diet is actually 40 degrees Celsius/104 degrees Fahrenheit. There are a few, non-standard claims of foods still being considered raw at as high as  115 degrees Fahrenheit(in a few raw vegan sites), but that's about it, and they're not canon. The 40 degrees Celsius figure is vitally  important as the enzymes in raw foods get progressively and quickly destroyed as one heats the food above 40 degrees.

As for the raw pemmican issue(below 40 degrees Celsius), please mention the raw aspect, that's fine. Also casually mentioning, every now and then, the melting temperature  you normally use, might be helpful.

[William]

simply put, eating absolutely any cooked animal fat, regardless of whether it's grassfed or not, will leave me with a hangover feeling some time later, with worse effects happening if I eat more than a tiny amount.

Have you tried lipase?

[TylerDurden]

Have you tried lipase?

I haven't bothered using enzymes as I hardly ever eat cooked animal food - besides, I don't like artificial enzymes and prefer using high-meat as a way to better digest cooked animal fat.

.Also, I don't appear to have problems with enzyme-deficiency(otherwise I would have (smaller)
 issues with raw animal fat)

[pfw]

As for foolish suggestions for me to eat pemmican for a whole
month, I've already eaten plenty of cooked animal fat in the past decades for me to know exactly
how harmful it is for me and I shudder at the thought of having to eat a diet of mostly melted animal fat especially while having to undergo the same horrendous ...

Heh, I would never ask you to undertake an experiment. I merely pointed out for those interested that it would be trivial to settle this question with a simple experiment, thus taking the argument away from anecdote into data.

If you want to critique an idea, you have to test it. If you don't want to test an idea, then you cannot claim certainty about it. Of course, no one can't ever really claim certainty, but I doubt there are many Karl Popper fans here. Suffice it to say that arguing in absolutes without doing any testing is a truly "foolish". You might have some sort of reaction to cooked animal fat, but that does not mean every other human being will. You might not be able to handle zero carb, but that does not mean every other human being will fail as well. And while "perfect digestion" is indeed highly suspect, eating an essentially pre-digested food can reasonably be expected to reduce stool volume considerably, and so perhaps his claim is less exaggerated than you believe. Until the claim is tested, the amount of truth in his statement remains unsettled.

[TylerDurden]

Extreme claims require extreme proof. So, I would like to see daily photos, frequent medical corroboration etc. before I believe such nonsense as perfect digestion. The burden of proof is not on me but on DF.

And, like I said, my own negative experience with cooked animal fat(heated suet much like what people use for pemmican) is indeed a very good indication that DelFuego is at the very least wildly exaggerating about health-claims re pemmican(or perfect digestion) - or worse. I do not need to ruin my health by eating pemmican for 5 years or 10 years or a lifetime , just eat heated suet in experiments and get the same negative reaction every time, to indicate that it's unhealthy for me.

And I am most certainly not the only one on raw diets(or other diets) suffering ill-health from cooked animal fats. As I already pointed out before re studies, ALEs, toxic byproducts of cooking and present in multiple amounts in cooked animal fat, are deleterious to health. Some people may be less affected by them than others for whatever isolated reason, but it's ludicrous to suggest that cooked animal fat is healthy.

As for the ZC diet remark, I have never claimed that raw ZC diets are always bad for all people. In fact, I have suggested that certainly at least a few or more people do at least fine on raw ZC(I'm still doubtful re the sport-performance issue). Cooked ZC diets are another issue, and I've already gone into the issue of toxins in cooked animal foods endless times.

[carnivore]

Extreme claims require extreme proof. So, I would like to see daily photos, frequent medical corroboration etc. before I believe such nonsense as perfect digestion. The burden of proof is not on me but on DF.

And, like I said, my own negative experience with cooked animal fat(heated suet much like what people use for pemmican) is indeed a very good indication that DelFuego is at the very least wildly exaggerating about health-claims re pemmican(or perfect digestion) - or worse. I do not need to ruin my health by eating pemmican for 5 years or 10 years or a lifetime , just eat heated suet in experiments and get the same negative reaction every time, to indicate that it's unhealthy for me.

And I am most certainly not the only one on raw diets(or other diets) suffering ill-health from cooked animal fats. As I already pointed out before re studies, ALEs, toxic byproducts of cooking and present in multiple amounts in cooked animal fat, are deleterious to health. Some people may be less affected by them than others for whatever isolated reason, but it's ludicrous to suggest that cooked animal fat is healthy.

As for the ZC diet remark, I have never claimed that raw ZC diets are always bad for all people. In fact, I have suggested that certainly at least a few or more people do at least fine on raw ZC(I'm still doubtful re the sport-performance issue). Cooked ZC diets are another issue, and I've already gone into the issue of toxins in cooked animal foods endless times.

As long as you don't have seriously experimented raw pemmican made from raw dried meat and tallow melted below 40°, you can't say anything credible about this food. Period.

[pfw]

Some people may be less affected by them than others for whatever isolated reason, but it's ludicrous to suggest that cooked animal fat is healthy.

This is your problem.

Just because you have an extreme and immediately negative effect to cooked food does not mean that everyone does. Indeed, the vast majority of people on this earth do not appear to have that reaction. Long term aging effects, cancer and what have you obviously might be problems, but "Healthy" is a very relative term; most people can live perfectly full and happy lives eating cooked food before succumbing to some disease. Your inability to do so does not make it universally intolerable, and there's a vast body of evidence that shows that your experience is very much the minority. Most people tolerate it just fine, even if it does harm to them over the long term.

Which, by the way, is why I would never attempt to run any experiment using you as a subject. Your negative reactions to cooked food are apparently so powerful that you'd be an outlier in all data. If someone with less sensitivity were to eat all pemmican, their reaction would be much more valuable.

I don't know why you are conflating the various potential health effects of cooked fats with the immediate question of digestive efficiency. Toxin loads and whatnot are totally irrelevant if the individual in question isn't as allergic to them as you are, which Delfuego clearly isn't. Again, pemmican is essentially pre-digested; the protein is powdered and dried with the fat being reduced to its constituent fatty acids. If there was a food that could be totally absorbed without significant waste, it would be pemmican. It's also important to note that not even Delfuego is claiming that he never has a bowel movement ever, just that the ones he does have are extremely minimal: "just a little liquid".

With such imprecise language it's impossible to tell exactly what he's claiming, but "just a little liquid" is an eminently possible result given the food being considered and assuming that the person consuming it is not severely allergic to cooked food. Confirming it, or falsifying it, in others would give us more data to go on.

Since it's unlikely that we are going to have a metabolic ward study of the long term effects of pemmican, you will of course accept no pragmatically attainable evidence as proof. That renders this debate rather moot. I will, however, again point out that any interested parties without acute sensitivity to rendered fat would be able to test the claim, and that there are other pemmican eaters out there who might be contacted.

[PaleoPhil]

Tyler: "As for the raw pemmican issue(below 40 degrees Celsius), please mention the raw aspect, that's fine. Also casually mentioning, every now and then, the melting temperature  you normally use, might be helpful."

Sorry, I meant under 40 degrees celsius (104 degrees farenheit). My metric knowledge disappeared due to lack of use. BTW, one reason some of the critics here used to block the switch to metric is that the metric measures allegedly don't have anything close to natural equivalents, whereas the English measures supposedly sort of do (for example, a guy with a size 12 shoe can roughly measure parts of a croquet surface by simply walking it toe-to-heal, a yard is about the length of a man's pace, etc.). I'm skeptical of how important that really is. Do you find that causes any problems?

My temps:
raw jerky - 95 degrees farenheit
tallow - mine was higher than I thought (up to 200 degrees)

DelFuego's reported temps on 2-17-2009:
raw jerky - 95 - 105 (if in a rush)
tallow - 170 - 200 (if in a rush)

So it looks like our jerky could generally be classed as raw (with DelFuego occasionally slightly cooking his jerky at 105 if he's in a rush), but not the tallow. Oh well. It's a compromise I'll live with for now for multiple reasons, but not because I think it's healthy to cook the tallow.

pfw: "I doubt there are many Karl Popper fans here."
Ooo! I'm one!

Tyler: "Extreme claims require extreme proof."
Carl Sagan would have agreed with you, and so do I. I don't consider DelFuego's and Charles' claims to be proof, I just prefer not to dismiss or belittle them, even though I do wonder whether they might be exaggerating a bit. Call me crazy if you like, but my approach is to try to start with an open mind on phenomena I'm unfamiliar with if there seems to be the slightest chance of possibly being an ounce of truth in it. My own experience suggests there is that chance.

Tyler: "So, I would like to see daily photos,"
Not sure a photo or even a video would prove anything and I do NOT want to see either! BTW, neither claimed "perfect" digestion, so that's a straw man. You could get away with saying "near-perfect" I would say.

"I've already gone into the issue of toxins in cooked animal foods endless times."
Hey, maybe small amounts of the toxins in cooked animal foods can have medicinal effects just like plant toxins? Could they also create the "healthy detox" reactions that some people say plant toxins create? I've no idea myself, it just occurred to me and I'm just speculating. I like to question all assumptions, no matter how solid they seem to be.

Lex is rather knowledgeable about pemmican, so he could probably add some enlightenment to this subject if he so chooses.

This will probably be fruitless, but I recommend we try not to use heavily critical and absolutist language like "nonsense," "perfect" and "your problem"--at least until we've gotten more information.

[TylerDurden]

As long as you don't have seriously experimented raw pemmican made from raw dried meat and tallow melted below 40°, you can't say anything credible about this food. Period.

This is false. I've already frequently experimented with raw meat and raw fat on their own without other carby-foods) and have not experienced perfect digestion with either or both, so I know it to be nonsense as a claim. Since the difference between raw meat/fat at room-temperature and raw meat/fat warmed to 40 degrees Celsius is not remotely significant (ie no enzymes destroyed), there is no credibility in claiming that they are different. And, besides the increased lack of digestibility of cooked meats/fat makes the perfect digestion claim even more laughable.

[TylerDurden]

This is your problem.

Just because you have an extreme and immediately negative effect to cooked food does not mean that everyone does. Indeed, the vast majority of people on this earth do not appear to have that reaction. Long term aging effects, cancer and what have you obviously might be problems, but "Healthy" is a very relative term; most people can live perfectly full and happy lives eating cooked food before succumbing to some disease. Your inability to do so does not make it universally intolerable, and there's a vast body of evidence that shows that your experience is very much the minority. Most people tolerate it just fine, even if it does harm to them over the long term.

The very fact that people suffer from cooked meats in the long-term is in itself a confirmation that cooked food is unhealthy. And I would question whether people on cooked diets are healthy - virtually everyone I know who's past a certain age is in extremly poor ill-health. Sure, they have better access to medical facilities, can take endless artificial vitamins and minerals and other (eg:- hormone-) pills so they are better off than their parents and grandparents, but that, of course, doesn't make them "healthy" by any means.

I don't know why you are conflating the various potential health effects of cooked fats with the immediate question of digestive efficiency. Toxin loads and whatnot are totally irrelevant if the individual in question isn't as allergic to them as you are, which Delfuego clearly isn't. Again, pemmican is essentially pre-digested; the protein is powdered and dried with the fat being reduced to its constituent fatty acids. If there was a food that could be totally absorbed without significant waste, it would be pemmican. It's also important to note that not even Delfuego is claiming that he never has a bowel movement ever, just that the ones he does have are extremely minimal: "just a little liquid".

I do not have an "allergy" to cooked foods, you're making a wholly false assumption . Plus, I developed these digestive symptoms re cooked animal foods over a decades-long  consumption of cooked meats, it wasn't a lifelong thing and it came about due to prolonged, indirect harm done to my digestive system and other areas by cooked diets.

As for DelFuego and the liquid issue, as long as people refrain from mentioning perfect digestion, that's fine by me. I view claims of perfect digestion as obviously fraudulent, but wild exaggeration is not an issue for me.

[TylerDurden]

Tyler: "As for the raw pemmican issue(below 40 degrees Celsius), please mention the raw aspect, that's fine. Also casually mentioning, every now and then, the melting temperature  you normally use, might be helpful."

Sorry, I meant under 40 degrees celsius (104 degrees farenheit). My metric knowledge disappeared due to lack of use. BTW, one reason some of the critics here used to block the switch to metric is that the metric measures allegedly don't have anything close to natural equivalents, whereas the English measures supposedly sort of do (for example, a guy with a size 12 shoe can roughly measure parts of a croquet surface by simply walking it toe-to-heal, a yard is about the length of a man's pace, etc.). I'm skeptical of how important that really is. Do you find that causes any problems?

You Americans(and Canadians?) are the only sane Anglo-saxon nations left who use the old system of measurement. We've had awful scenes with the EU making harsh laws banning the use of such old measurements, to the point where traders were actively prosecuted for a time before public outrage softened things a bit. The fact is that meauring in feet/ounces/pounds etc.(and even miles) is far more correct and easy to estimate. I find the notion of metres/centimetres useless  for estimating height and so on.

My temps:
raw jerky - 95 degrees farenheit
tallow - mine was higher than I thought (up to 200 degrees)

DelFuego's reported temps on 2-17-2009:
raw jerky - 95 - 105 (if in a rush)
tallow - 170 - 200 (if in a rush)

So it looks like our jerky could generally be classed as raw (with DelFuego occasionally slightly cooking his jerky at 105 if he's in a rush), but not the tallow. Oh well. It's a compromise I'll live with for now for multiple reasons, but not because I think it's healthy to cook the tallow.

So, jerky is often eaten raw, but pemmican never is. I take it no one ever warms suet for making pemmican ,to below 40 degrees Celsius? I was concerned re claims that pemmican was raw because Lex had pointed out that ideally, the fat in pemmican must be heated to high temperatures for ease of use etc.

pfw: "I doubt there are many Karl Popper fans here."
Ooo! I'm one!

I wasn't too familiar with him, but it turns out he does have rather a large crticism section on his wikipedia entry(eg:-

"By applying Popper's account of scientific method, John Gray's Straw Dogs states that this would have killed the theories of Darwin and Einstein at birth. When they were first advanced, each of them was at odds with some available evidence; only later did evidence become available that gave them crucial support"

Tyler: "So, I would like to see daily photos,"
Not sure a photo or even a video would prove anything and I do NOT want to see either! BTW, neither claimed "perfect" digestion, so that's a straw man. You could get away with saying "near-perfect" I would say.

Near-perfect would also be misleading,as it almost implies perfection.Perhaps excellent/very good digestion would be preferable as a term.

"I've already gone into the issue of toxins in cooked animal foods endless times."
Hey, maybe small amounts of the toxins in cooked animal foods can have medicinal effects just like plant toxins? Could they also create the "healthy detox" reactions that some people say plant toxins create? I've no idea myself, it just occurred to me and I'm just speculating. I like to question all assumptions, no matter how solid they seem to be.

The difference is that the previous reference in another topic to toxins in plants  involved raw plants(and, at the very worst,  assumption of only very  light cooking as the antioxidants/phytonutrients etc. that you label plant toxins, are very easily destroyed by heat. I've not heard of people claiming detox reactions from plant foods(except from the raw vegan crowd). That is, it's actually commonly the case that people are fed on raw and lightly-cooked plant foods as part of detox diets in health-spas, but I suspect that the main benefit of such artificial diets is not the plant foods as such, simply that the person becomes healthier for a time, due to not eating cooked animal food during their stay at the spa, and their body uses that time to detox those cooked-animal-food-poisons out.

The same applies to animal foods as the phytonutrients in raw plants. The healthy nutrients are found in raw animal foods and then are progressively destroyed/reduced/altered in quantity as cooking is increased.

Also, the phytonutrients in plants seem of a more complex nature. The only animal food that comes close to having hormonal and other effects would be dairy(or "high-meat"), and these are not good, either, in cooked form.

This will probably be fruitless, but I recommend we try not to use heavily critical and absolutist language like "nonsense," "perfect" and "your problem"--at least until we've gotten more information.

Well, this is the hot topics forum and we should have greater scope. I would dread having all swearing (eg:- occasional use of the extreme word "b*ll*cks)etc. banned as it lessens the fun.

[PaleoPhil]

I figured it would be failed effort, but thought I'd at least give it a shot. For what it's worth, I vote for a bit of a toning down and chilling out. People are free to do what they wish, of course. It's just a friendly request. Nothing more.

[PaleoPhil]

Here's some evidence I came across that lends credence to the claims of DelFuego and Charles re: limited, watery feces after years of a carnivorous diet (DelFuego in particular is basically eating like a wolf, albeit without the organs, bones, or hide):

Food passage rate and digestibility

p. 125 "If wolves were to be judged as domestic dogs are, they would probably rank as dysfunctional feeders. The irregular, very large meals ingested by wolves commonly results in very liquid, diarrhea-like feces. The rapid passage of chyme through the digestive system is associated with osmotic imbalance, stimulation of secretion and gut motility, and inhibition of nitrogen and water absorption, all of which lead to increased water content in feces (Blaza 1982)."

p. 126 "The wolf's diet, except for hair and bone, is highly digestible--generally in excess of 90%, based on experiments with dogs (Meyer et al. 1980). Fat is the most thoroughly digested component of the diet (97%), followed by protein (93%). As food intake increases, digestibility drops by a few percentage points. ... The effect of doubling the intake of food ... was a near tripling of feces production."

--Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation, by L. David Mech and Luigi Boitani (2003)

Quite a coincidence, eh?

[William]

AFAIK delfuego has been eating strictly pemmican for the longest, so should show results that indicate what is in store for the rest of us.

Did he post how long it was before that happened?

[TylerDurden]

Yet, my own personal observation is that going raw ZC made my stools much harder and compact  not more softer/liquid. Also, there's a difference between wolves' digestive systems, I believe human's digestive systems are longer?

[William]

Yet, my own personal observation is that going raw ZC made my stools much harder and compact  not more softer/liquid. Also, there's a difference between wolves' digestive systems, I believe human's digestive systems are longer?

Me too, from the beginning of diet, but delfuego is different in that he started pemmican only, and for longer - >4 years.

Human digestive systems are longer, but it's been said that they shrink on a carb-free diet, certainly feels like that. Compare the belly of a grain-fed domestic dog with the concave belly of the wild wolf. It looks like less gut is needed to digest a carnivorous diet.

[PaleoPhil]

Me too, from the beginning of diet, but delfuego is different in that he started pemmican only, and for longer - >4 years.

Human digestive systems are longer, but it's been said that they shrink on a carb-free diet, certainly feels like that. Compare the belly of a grain-fed domestic dog with the concave belly of the wild wolf. It looks like less gut is needed to digest a carnivorous diet.

Yes, I think Lex said that the early tendency to constipation when the fecal volume reduces by 2/3 resolved for him after 3 months or so and that his colon shrunk and became healthier-looking upon examination by a GI specialist.