Ultimate Martial Arts

[TylerDurden]

I'd like to restart martial arts after a very long time away from Judo(I was a green belt). I like Judo for the hefty exercixse involved(it's like wrestling), but I'd also like something more combat-based, these days.

I've heard lots of good things about Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, but have also heard of how Ninjutsu-practitioners(led by Hatsumi) beat them hollow in Japan in those trial-fights that the BJJ guys like to setup to "prove" the superiority of their art. I'm certainly not in favour of any too specialist martial arts like taekwondo(too focused on the legs) or self-defence(like aikido). I want to kick someone's butt!

I've also heard of Krav Magna but it sounds too Israeli-specialised or whatever.

Anyway, any recommendations/suggestions?

[SkinnyDevil]

You heard what about ninjutsu?

I've not heard much about Hatsumi's guys since he stopped "seeding" in the 1980s. The early guys are all bad ass, but I hear tale his new guys (especially in the last decade) are mostly studying history. Very commendable, but not very practical.

The only story I heard with regard to BJJ & ninjutsu was when one of Bussey's guys in Texas bit Rickson on the ear and wouldn't let go, so the "ref" stopped the match and DQ-ed him. He said his point was that there is cage fighting and then there is real fighting, and ground work is only so functional as your opponent's willingness to NOT cheat (in that it tends to ignore the realities of environment, for example, or that people might gouge eyes, bite, etc.).

BJJ, however, is great for what it is, and I'd be surprised if within that context (including UFC-style fighting) any ninjutsu practitioner could beat a BJJ practitioner in the ring.

For an overall system, I rather like what the pancrase guys do.

[TylerDurden]

From  what I understand, 1 of Hatsumi's assistants beat the BJJ guy very quickly(re some sort of leg-attack). BJJ is supposed to be excellent re groundwork, but, obviously, once you're forced to the ground, you're pretty much dead already,anyway.

The reason why I'm in favour of ninjutsu, is that it was always designed as a way to beat stronger opponents than you PROVIDED you had better martial arts skill. When one considers martial arts like judo, they're just totally dependent on the arm-reach, height and central strength of the combatant, not necessarily due to skill. I used to easily beat lots of skinny guys but find it difficult to manage to beat the wrestler-physiques of the black-belt judokas on the mat.

[phatdave]

Hey tyler,

Thought this account might interest you with regards to Ninjutsu.

My much older half brother is friends with an man who is highly trained in a rediculous number of martial arts including ninjutsu. He has been involved in martial arts for 20+ years I think he said, and earns money working as a martial arts trainer for films. If I remember correctly he said that there were very few schools left (i seem to remember anywhere from 1 to 5 maybe), that teach the true martial art of ninjutsu of which he was particularly proud and fortunate enough to be a pupil of for a number of years, gaining the highest level of respect/skill. I seem to remember his teacher being someone rather important. As I said, the man had gained the highest level in this school, and we were amazed when he described what was required of him in order to do this. I remember him describing how he had to sit cross legged on the floor with his back to his teacher. His teacher would creep towards in near silence him and strike, and he was to counter! Needless to say after finding out the history and skill of this man my brother and I barely left him alone all night. The accounts were incredible.

He did say I seem to remember that despite being highly accomplished in all these different ma's, I remember him being highly qualified in karate for one, he said that he without a doubt he held ninjutsu in the highest of regards. I think it was the shear directness that he appreciated; the fastest most efficient responce to a situtation. He said that however it was an art formulated to kill, and as such all the blows usually were intended to be fatal, or incredibly damaging. It required him to be highly efficient and adaptable at using anything in his surrounds as a weapon to kill, and the surroundings themselves to his advantage. Day or night, all must be drawn upon. He said it also took tremendous ammounts of discipline. It is impossible to correctly identify a martial art as being truely superior, it is of course how the individual uses it - but Ninjutsu, when taught correctly, sounded absolutely deadly.

I would be more than happy to track him down if you ever wanted to speak to him first hand.

[The Barbarian]

Well as stated above there's cage fighting, and real fighting, from what I've seen in a cage fight  BJJ is the most effective single MA and all my life I've heard rumors of the deadly death blows etc. but never have seen such a thing. I think if anyone knew any real  deadly or extremely damaging strikes they would use them for a quick victory. I can knock someone unconcious with one punch which in real fighting would be deadly because I could then proceed to stomp or suffocate them or whatever. I just don't believe in these mythical deadly strikes. Unless ovecourse someone makes a weapon out of the environment. Ninjitsu sounds like a real world survival fighting skill involving makeshift weapons and using the environment etc. Within the confines of MMA competition where there are a few rules I've never seen anything as effective as ju jitsu. Therefore like you say it is impossible to really say there is any supreme martial arts style. The cool thing about MMA is that it has evolved fighting to a point where no master of any one style stands any real chance. You really do have to develop skill in multiple martial art styles to have a chance now days. We have taken fighting hand to hand to a higher level than it's ever been before by combining the best of multiple martial arts into one.

[phatdave]

Nicely put mate - i think that makes alot of sense.

I didnt mean fatal in a kind of 1 hit punch explosion like fist of the north star! Just like you said, things that would render someone completely vunerable, like gouging someones eye out, or punching them in the neck.

But as I said, well put.

[TylerDurden]

Phatdave, 1 of the reasons why I became interested about Ninjutsu was because of hearing about Hatsumi demonstrating that same trick of detecting an opponent silently stalking behind him. Plus, Ninjutsu was always meant as a serious art, whereas most martial arts are now just sport-oriented.

I doubt I'll ever become truly proficient in Ninjutsu, but I never once found Judo useful outside the DoJo(well, except for learning how to fall properly). Anyway, I gather there are a few clubs in London so I'll see how it goes.

[SkinnyDevil]

Well as stated above there's cage fighting, and real fighting, from what I've seen in a cage fight  BJJ is the most effective...

Yes, it has a proven track record.

I'm not sure I'd use the term "best" simply because it is not a complete system, but is a takedown & ground fighting system. But as such, it works wonderfully in conjunction with a system designed primarily for the stand-up game (boxing, muay thai, etc).

Have you seen any of the pancrase (by whatever spelling) guys? Essentially the above-mentioned stand & ground games fused into a single system. Cool stuff. It might be worth looking into (due to it's transition work) AFTER you spend some time working BJJ.

Check out Sakuraba (in his prime was known as "The Gracie Hunter").
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44E-lW3aYhM

[cherimoya_kid]

and all my life I've heard rumors of the deadly death blows etc. but never have seen such a thing. I think if anyone knew any real  deadly or extremely damaging strikes they would use them for a quick victory. I can knock someone unconcious with one punch which in real fighting would be deadly because I could then proceed to stomp or suffocate them or whatever. I just don't believe in these mythical deadly strikes.

Striking the carotid sinus on the carotid artery is a pretty effective knockout/kill point.  There are others, like the crown of the head, the underside of the occiput, and one on the forearm.

[The Barbarian]

Yes, it has a proven track record.

I'm not sure I'd use the term "best" simply because it is not a complete system, but is a takedown & ground fighting system. But as such, it works wonderfully in conjunction with a system designed primarily for the stand-up game (boxing, muay thai, etc).

Have you seen any of the pancrase (by whatever spelling) guys? Essentially the above-mentioned stand & ground games fused into a single system. Cool stuff. It might be worth looking into (due to it's transition work) AFTER you spend some time working BJJ.

Check out Sakuraba (in his prime was known as "The Gracie Hunter").
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44E-lW3aYhM

I actually am an MMA fighter(very similar to pancrase). I'm a very dangerous striker but the 2 matches I've lost were by submission. It seems that once you have a reputation for knocking fighters out, then suddenly nobody wants to stand up fight with you any more. My last 4 fights have been a progression of better and better ground fighters who wanted nothing to do with my standup. The honest truth is, without what ground fighting skills I do have (rapidly improving), I would have lost every one of those fights. When a pure striker and a pure ground fighter clash, you should put your money on the ground fighter every time. I've learned this the hard way myself and seen it 100 times. My devastating striking stands a poor chance against a pure ju-jitsu guy. Thats why Gracie dominated the early UFC when all the different martial arts styles clashed. Which is why I say if you could only train at one form of martial arts, ju jitsu is your best bet. However with the evolution of mixed martial arts even a black belt in ju-jitsu isn't good enough. Now we have to be good at everything and ready for anything, which is AWESOME:-)      I love a huge challenge. My last fight was against a Gracie ju jitsu fighter who's won multiple grappling tournaments. My job was to keep it on the feet and his job was to get me to the ground and submit me.  He ducked a punch executed a good takedown, he had me in full mount but i threw him off because I'm a beast (literally the strongest light heavyweight fighter I've ever know of), but he transitioned onto some strange variation of a kimora so fast I had no chance, I faught his whole body with my arm, I was strong enough to resist an armbar so he switched it into a kimora which puts my arm in a very jeopardized position. It's supposed to dislocate my shoulder but my shoulder is too strong so I still didnt tap, then it dislocated my elbow and turned my forarm away from the rest of my arm in a rather interesting angle. I got to leave that fight in an ambulance, some people get broken bones and punctured blood vessels and nerve damage or blod clots from such a thing. Fortunately my tendons didn't snap they just got way overstretched to where they had to put a cast on me because my radius wouldn't even stay in the socket when the doc relocated it because the tendons were so loose lol. Keep in mind the guy who was able to do this to me could most likely not bench press or squat or dead lift much more than half the weight I can. He broke the stronger man using the amazing leverages that ju jitsu gives to a skilled user. I've seen more smaller or weaker guys beat stronger and  bigger guys with ju jitsu than anything else. This guy couldn't have hit me hard enough to knock me out or make me quit (I've taken a mauling from much bigger guys and never been knocked out) , he couldn't hold me down and ground n pound me or beat me up on the ground, his only option was to beat me with a submission. We both knew that going in and I honestly expected to win but with that darn ju jitsu he was able to make it happen still. You can know for sure that after this experience, the submission fighting aspect of my fighting game is going to be my main focus.

[PaleoPhil]

It's mostly speculation on my part, but I think a purely carnivorous raw diet may improve your instincts, reflexes, joint strength and flexibility, all at the same time. The potential downside is loss of bulk that you may use to pin and throw opponents and resist being thrown.

Re: sensing the opponent from behind. When I ate lots of carbs I was frequently startled and taken by surprise by people who approached me from an angle, from behind or from within a crowd. It was annoying. That is happening less and less often since I went carnivorous, and I am starting to detect those same people before they notice me. I seem to be rapidly changing from prey into predator.

Two people I know who went near-Paleo after I gave them some information reported that they have developed a sixth sense for detecting people without seeing them. These are very rational, unsuperstitious people. Years ago I even saw a report on a scientific study that found evidence of this sense. I know almost nothing of martial arts, but if this sense is real and can develop even further, then it may be theoretically possible for a carnivorous martial artist to consistently strike an opponent without even seeing him. In other words, you could not only detect him as he snuck up behind you, but you might be able to strike him in a vulnerable spot without looking, just as he approached you. I wouldn't recommend that, of course (especially in real life, where he might have a knife or gun), but it would be pretty cool if possible.

[Raw Kyle]

Ninjitsu isn't a martial art. It translates to "the art of patience" and is a combination of martial arts, stealth, espionage, survival and many other techniques. It could also be called a way of life and philosophy, but imo it's been dead in any kind of pure and practical sense for decades or centuries. There is no "ninja fighting style" or system.

I do kickboxing and bjj and would recommend anyone looking to do martial arts for health/self defense/fun to do the same.

[TylerDurden]

Ninjitsu isn't a martial art. It translates to "the art of patience" and is a combination of martial arts, stealth, espionage, survival and many other techniques. It could also be called a way of life and philosophy, but imo it's been dead in any kind of pure and practical sense for decades or centuries. There is no "ninja fighting style" or system.

I do kickboxing and bjj and would recommend anyone looking to do martial arts for health/self defense/fun to do the same.

Actually,from what I've recently read,  ninjutsu seems to not involve 1 martial-arts discipline but something like 7-9 others. It's apparently relatively similiar to Ju-Jitsu, from what I've read, its just that they have additional  techniques as well for spying etc., and the techniques are more usually meant   to kill or confuse an opponent rather than just disarming him. They did have some outdated techniques(such as throwing objects at armoured opponents) which are no longer relevant to modern times, but much of their disciplines appear to be still useful.

[SkinnyDevil]

Kyle & Tyler, you are both (to a degree, anyway) correct.

Ninjutsu (ninpo) is a single system composed of 9 schools that include hand-to-hand techniques (strikes & grappling largely from different schools), weapons techniques, and more (including the "18 skills" which includes everything from stealth to horseback riding to reading the stars).

Hatsumi is the recognized "top dog" who has incorporated the above 9 schools/lineages into a single school: The Bujinkan. The founders of all other schools - from Hayes' Quest Centers to Tanamura's Genbukan to even the now defunct RBWI - were once students of Hatsumi's.

As I said earlier, Hatsumi taught some devastating stuff back in the day (during his "seeding" period), but most of what he has been teaching in the past 2 decades is little more than "moving history". His guys put on period clothing, for example, to fully appreciate the grappling techniques or the cumbersome weapons.

There are still folks out there who teach "the real thing" (i.e. - the parts relevant to modern armed & unarmed combat), but you'd have a VERY difficult time finding them.

For Americans, my advice is to find someone who was with Hayes back in the 1980s and has rejected the popular move of running off to study (and thus follow) Hatsumi. I can't speak for what Hayes is doing now with his Quest centers, but the old Nine Gates curriculum placed the information in a solid structural framework that allowed techniques to become subordinate to higher aspects of conflict resolution.

[TylerDurden]

Yet a lot of Ninjutsu teachers state that Stephen Hayes is a bogus teacher.

[Raw Kyle]

My point is that "ninjitsu" is a word that has meant many things over the years. I gave the literal translation, whatever anyone says it is now, whatever arts it teaches or has taught, is one of the temporary definitions of that literal term.

[The Barbarian]

It's mostly speculation on my part, but I think a purely carnivorous raw diet may improve your instincts, reflexes, joint strength and flexibility, all at the same time. The potential downside is loss of bulk that you may use to pin and throw opponents and resist being thrown.

Re: sensing the opponent from behind. When I ate lots of carbs I was frequently startled and taken by surprise by people who approached me from an angle, from behind or from within a crowd. It was annoying. That is happening less and less often since I went carnivorous, and I am starting to detect those same people before they notice me. I seem to be rapidly changing from prey into predator.

Two people I know who went near-Paleo after I gave them some information reported that they have developed a sixth sense for detecting people without seeing them. These are very rational, unsuperstitious people. Years ago I even saw a report on a scientific study that found evidence of this sense. I know almost nothing of martial arts, but if this sense is real and can develop even further, then it may be theoretically possible for a carnivorous martial artist to consistently strike an opponent without even seeing him. In other words, you could not only detect him as he snuck up behind you, but you might be able to strike him in a vulnerable spot without looking, just as he approached you. I wouldn't recommend that, of course (especially in real life, where he might have a knife or gun), but it would be pretty cool if possible.

You know I'll bet your onto something here and this is the kind of thing that really gets me excited about this diet.

[The Barbarian]

Ninjitsu isn't a martial art. It translates to "the art of patience" and is a combination of martial arts, stealth, espionage, survival and many other techniques. It could also be called a way of life and philosophy, but imo it's been dead in any kind of pure and practical sense for decades or centuries. There is no "ninja fighting style" or system.

I do kickboxing and bjj and would recommend anyone looking to do martial arts for health/self defense/fun to do the same.

Thats the way I see kung fu. A lifestyle and way of thinking more than a fighting style. I think hollywood gave us westerners a retarded idea of what kung fu is.

[Raw Kyle]

Thats the way I see kung fu. A lifestyle and way of thinking more than a fighting style. I think hollywood gave us westerners a retarded idea of what kung fu is.

You're correct, as the translation for "kung fu" is close to the word "practice" or "training." There is so much bs surrounding the world of martial arts, in particular traditional Asian martial arts, that it's very hard to find out the truth about a style and it's history. I basically don't even worry about it, since there aren't any ninjas or monks winning fights in mixed martial arts. There was a ninjitsu guy at UFC 1, got pounded on and looked like a fool. Also once I saw a guy who said he could hit people without touching them get punched in the face by a Muay Thai fighter and gave up very quickly.

The martial arts history I like is Greek, like David is talking about with pankration. Alexander the Great brought martial arts into India, and then Indians (the Boddhidharma in particular) brought them into China, into the Shaolin temple. And then for centuries stories of people doing magical things clouded this history, and now we have very unclear lineages. Modern lineages are easy to see though, and the only martial arts schools winning any fights in mma are schools that focus on bjj, Greco-Roman and folk style wrestling, and Greco-Roman and Thai boxing.

[TylerDurden]

Fascinating. I already knew about India introducing martial arts to china but had no idea that alexander the great introduced martial arts to india. Must read up on this.

[SkinnyDevil]

Yet a lot of Ninjutsu teachers state that Stephen Hayes is a bogus teacher.

Yes, that position has been in vogue for quite some time.

It may well be true of his work in the past 10+ years - I don't know. I've never been to his Quest Center in OH. That said, it is definitely true (in my opinion) of MOST of the other ninpo teachers I've seen. Most of them were never half as good as Hayes was, and are now even worse.

Given that, I place little or no value on their opinion of Hayes.

The hold that view primarily because what Hayes taught them (he structure, not the techniques) is different from what Hatsumi teaches. They forget that Hayes' mandate from Hatsumi back in the 1970s & early 1980s was to create a structure in order to teach Americans the art of ninjutsu. Hatsumi didn't ask them - he asked Hayes. Hayes complied.

If they think Hayes is bogus, they think (whether they realize it or not) that Hatsumi has poor judgment.

That aside, I doubt you'll find a decent ninjutsu teacher...unless you are interested in studying history & culture as opposed to a real system of fighting.

RE: Other martial arts - If you are interested in fighting, BJJ, judo, & wrestling are great for ground work while boxing & muay thai are great for stand up. If you dig weapons usage, you might try some kali/eskrima. There are plenty of places that teach a combination of arts.

Personally, I don't like the modern model used to analyze fight technique (ground v stand-up), but I suppose it's useful for communication.

[The Barbarian]

Yes, that position has been in vogue for quite some time.

It may well be true of his work in the past 10+ years - I don't know. I've never been to his Quest Center in OH. That said, it is definitely true (in my opinion) of MOST of the other ninpo teachers I've seen. Most of them were never half as good as Hayes was, and are now even worse.

Given that, I place little or no value on their opinion of Hayes.

The hold that view primarily because what Hayes taught them (he structure, not the techniques) is different from what Hatsumi teaches. They forget that Hayes' mandate from Hatsumi back in the 1970s & early 1980s was to create a structure in order to teach Americans the art of ninjutsu. Hatsumi didn't ask them - he asked Hayes. Hayes complied.

If they think Hayes is bogus, they think (whether they realize it or not) that Hatsumi has poor judgment.



From what I have seen and expirienced the ground guys beat the standup fighters the vast majority of the time. Thats what evolved MMA into a mixture of everything, if you don't have it all you gotta stick to a sport that only does what you are good at like kickboxing if you don't have a ground fighting game or wrestling if you are afraid of being hit. I love MMA for bringing it all together.
That aside, I doubt you'll find a decent ninjutsu teacher...unless you are interested in studying history & culture as opposed to a real system of fighting.

RE: Other martial arts - If you are interested in fighting, BJJ, judo, & wrestling are great for ground work while boxing & muay thai are great for stand up. If you dig weapons usage, you might try some kali/eskrima. There are plenty of places that teach a combination of arts.

Personally, I don't like the modern model used to analyze fight technique (ground v stand-up), but I suppose it's useful for communication.

[TylerDurden]

I guess you have a point re Hayes.

I've been looking into this a bit more, and there seems to be a real mixture of martial arts available, Even an MMA/Ninjutsu mix. I already know Judo well enough(I'm a green belt, albeit somewhat inactivefor years) so may first start off with Ju-Jitsu, and go on from there.

[SkinnyDevil]

From what I have seen and expirienced the ground guys beat the standup fighters the vast majority of the time. Thats what evolved MMA into a mixture of everything, if you don't have it all you gotta stick to a sport that only does what you are good at like kickboxing if you don't have a ground fighting game or wrestling if you are afraid of being hit. I love MMA for bringing it all together.

MMA is a fantastic sport. I did some pancrase stuff way back when MMA was still only quasi-legal (at a fight in GA we were told if the police showed up we could be arrested - thankfully they didn't show up, though I lost that fight). It was great because it was the first time (in the ring, anyway) that you could combine the majority of your hand-to-hand skills with little concern for over-limiting rules. It was just as fun, with a greater sense of freedom, as when I was boxing & wrestling way back in high school.

I assume your response had nothing to do with my comments about Hayes, but had to do with my statement regarding the ground vs stand-up model that is currently popular. Within the context of MMA sport fighting, the division is probably the best there is. However, outside the ring I still dislike the current model because I think there are better ways to draw the analytical knife (one could divide physical conflict into weapons usage vs H2H or into striking vs grappling, for 2 common examples).

There is no doubt that the Gracie family (Rorion especially, as well as Royce [the "public face" of Gracie Juijitsu]) have earned a shining place in the history of martial arts alongside legends like Bruce Lee.

[Raw Kyle]

Fascinating. I already knew about India introducing martial arts to china but had no idea that alexander the great introduced martial arts to india. Must read up on this.

There are some martial arts that may have predated this, but by and large I believe most modern hand to hand combat systems from Asia have at least some of their roots in the pankration practiced by the Greeks that invaded East to India.

I don't see why they don't just call mma pankration, that's where it's from. And if you look at the art from then it looks the same, guys mostly nude with leather straps on their hands to lower the chances of cutting the face with punches. I heard it used to be the main event of the original Olympics, now it's not even legal in the Olympics.